I'm sure you've seen or heard of enough newbies trying the off-grid thing.  What are a few things you laugh about knowing they're going to encounter, or mistakes every single one seems to make?

If you don't mind if I tag another couple more three more questions to that, I'm almost 66, at what age do you feel the line is crossed about getting your investment back? How much time per week is the upkeep and do you do your own repairs?

Quote from: Possum on December 08, 2021, 06:06:24 AMIf you don't mind if I tag another couple more three more questions to that, I'm almost 66, at what age do you feel the line is crossed about getting your investment back? How much time per week is the upkeep and do you do your own repairs?

Ahh, yes...

Quote from: Possum on December 08, 2021, 06:06:24 AMIf you don't mind if I tag another couple more three more questions to that, I'm almost 66, at what age do you feel the line is crossed about getting your investment back? How much time per week is the upkeep and do you do your own repairs?

Good question.
In brief, the only return is freedom. There is no ROI unless you can sell your investment and start a new. Think of it as transportation. You have shoes, they work, or you could get a skate board, then a bike, onto a scooter, a Yugo, a nicer car, then a brand new car.
None of which have any ROI in them, but it's all about what you need vs what you want.
Fact is, I've probably spent close to a half million for my life style, granted, much was a live and learn kind of loss, but there's no doubt about it, it costs a lot to go off the grid if you aren't willing to sacrifice an awful lot of conveniences.

Keep in mind, the costs are nearly half what they were when I started over 3 decades ago, but only because of failed "Green" ventures on the taxpayers back.
In fact, I just picked up a couple of DC Solar's scam. They had built a huge corporation on defrauding investors and the Fed.
The trailer I bought will power a home all summer long without sacrificing much at all.

If I were to build one of these solar trailers it would probably cost anywhere from 50 to 100 grand, depending on batteries.
But I picked them up for less than $8 grand and they were never even put into use.

Anyway, I didn't really have the luxury of buying used back in the day, with the exception of the defunct ARCO solar panels from a failed Fed experiment from the Carter era.

If I were to give any advice, research, then research some more and experiment with a small system before you take the dive, unless you're already off grid.
And if you are, buy a 7000 watt diesel generator, (I like the Kubota Lowboy 7000 for around $5.700), then, the most batteries you can afford, buy a 2500 watt AIMS inverter with built in charger. This will keep you from killing your battery bank.
Then you can start building your solar array. Too many people think they only need solar so they start there, buy a few car batteries and a shitty off the shelf kragen auto parts 12 volt inverter and run it all into the ground the first year.
People tend to forget the little things, like water, a sewage system, Internet. You no longer have access to city services, so this is just one more cost incurred as you venture off grid.

Batteries to start should be 10 or 20, L-16 type batteries (I like Trojan batteries), this will be several thousand dollars, but should last you at least ten years and will run virtually everything you plug into it, just don't run the batteries below 70%, anymore is considered a cycle, and the batteries are only good for 300 cycles.
Running your battery bank dead (10 volts on a 12 volt system) is a full cycle, you could do this everyday, and in a year you'd be forced to replace all the batteries.

As to panels, only buy a single cut crystal cell (Mono Crystal), the rest are essentially crap, but they still work, but by all means, avoid Chinese crap, stay with American, German, Japanese and some Indian/Mexico cells.
Oh, and you may want to stay away from Tesla's power wall, though they work, and you can find some refurbished units out there, they're still just AA type electronics batteries, hundreds of them, and when they fail, you have to go through them one by one and test them all.

To date the best battery application is still lead acid, but we're finally approaching the day that all changes, but probably not viable for another 30 years.

Point is, there is nothing cheap about going off the grid, but the more you can sacrifice as in the way of comfort and conveniences, you could just buy raw land with a creek and a couple of shipping containers and call it a day.
If I had to do it all over, that's the route I'd have taken, four or more containers, attach them together, cut out some walls and build inside.

Sadly, that's only just scratching the surface, oh, and go with propane everyway possible, including refrigerator, lights to heat in the winter, instantaneous water heater.

I could go on for pages.

Quote from: Solar on December 08, 2021, 07:59:06 AMSadly, that's only just scratching the surface, oh, and go with propane everyway possible, including refrigerator, lights to heat in the winter, instantaneous water heater.

Propane??!! Seriously? Why do you recommend propane?

Quote from: TboneAgain on December 08, 2021, 10:08:19 PMPropane??!! Seriously? Why do you recommend propane?

Yes, dead serious! Can you give one good reason not to?

Quote from: TboneAgain on December 08, 2021, 10:08:19 PMPropane??!! Seriously? Why do you recommend propane?

The biggest pig on our system is the large refrigerator I wanted.  Replacing it with a propane fridge, which draws no electric, would be a huge savings to the battery bank and to my fuel budget.  Propane is so much cheaper that other forms of fuel.  Toy

I would have thought propane would be the one of the earliest items to disappear.

I love the large trojan lead/acid batteries. Would rebuild them back in the day. You know I just might have to collect the materials to do that.

Quote from: Rick on December 09, 2021, 09:38:46 AMI would have thought propane would be the one of the earliest items to disappear.

Regardless of anything, propane is here to stay, it affords one heat no matter how bad things get.
It's technically dirt cheap when you buy 500 gallons or more, ours lasts two years, and we cook, shower and burn with it.
 

QuoteI love the large trojan lead/acid batteries. Would rebuild them back in the day. You know I just might have to collect the materials to do that.

Totally cool! If you did that on a large enough scale, I could sell them for you. Especially if you shipped them dry, they could be stored indefinitely.
Those damn things are expensive, and battery companies are making a killing.
The only issue is shipping, it gets quite expensive, which is why I'd order pallets full  at a time.

We are talking 1200 lbs, It would be a one off type of thing. Don't think I could do more than 2 of three a month.
mmm We will have to see how things in Az look.

Quote from: Rick on December 09, 2021, 02:03:19 PMWe are talking 1200 lbs, It would be a one off type of thing. Don't think I could do more than 2 of three a month.
mmm We will have to see how things in Az look.

Hell, keep them for yourself, they may come in handy.

Quote from: Solar on December 09, 2021, 06:04:20 AMYes, dead serious! Can you give one good reason not to?

I guess you're seeing propane as an alternative to (sometimes non-existent) utility electricity or perhaps trucked-in fuel oil. Where I live, it's what folks outside of town are stuck with. Town gas (or natural gas, or whatever they call the stuff) costs a small fraction (per BTU) of what I pay for propane. (Yes, I heat my house with propane.)

Propane offers the advantage of relatively easy and stable compressibility, meaning that it can be handled and transported by truck fairly easily and safely. Also, it can be stored in liquid form (and in high BTU numbers) in small on-site mild steel tanks.

But propane is a price loser in a lot of ways. Its cost is irrevocably tied to that of crude oil. (The retail price here has gone up 70 cents per gallon - about 45% - in two months recently, and everyone I've talked says it will rise a good bit more as winter takes hold.) The cost is notoriously unstable and prone to huge fluctuations by season, and by weather. I live in farm country; a poor fall drying spell for field crops around here means a HUGE spike in propane demand, which naturally drives the price up even as winter closes in. It also eventually drives up food prices, and effect that is probably more regional or even national than local.

Right now I'm looking at the possibility of converting my shop heat from electric to propane. I have a wall-mount thermostatically-controlled blue-flame ventless heater that I got for free. But I'm still having a hell of a time getting the cost of propane to balance out better than the electricity I use now, along with improvements in insulation.

I guess until the loss of utility electricity becomes a real thing around here, I'm probably not going to be a big fan of propane.

https://conservativehardliner.com/question-what-age-do-you-feel-line-crossed-about-getting-your-investment-back-how-much-time-week

Quote from: TboneAgain on December 10, 2021, 11:52:17 AMI guess you're seeing propane as an alternative to (sometimes non-existent) utility electricity or perhaps trucked-in fuel oil. Where I live, it's what folks outside of town are stuck with. Town gas (or natural gas, or whatever they call the stuff) costs a small fraction (per BTU) of what I pay for propane. (Yes, I heat my house with propane.)

Propane offers the advantage of relatively easy and stable compressibility, meaning that it can be handled and transported by truck fairly easily and safely. Also, it can be stored in liquid form (and in high BTU numbers) in small on-site mild steel tanks.

But propane is a price loser in a lot of ways. Its cost is irrevocably tied to that of crude oil. (The retail price here has gone up 70 cents per gallon - about 45% - in two months recently, and everyone I've talked says it will rise a good bit more as winter takes hold.) The cost is notoriously unstable and prone to huge fluctuations by season, and by weather. I live in farm country; a poor fall drying spell for field crops around here means a HUGE spike in propane demand, which naturally drives the price up even as winter closes in. It also eventually drives up food prices, and effect that is probably more regional or even national than local.

Right now I'm looking at the possibility of converting my shop heat from electric to propane. I have a wall-mount thermostatically-controlled blue-flame ventless heater that I got for free. But I'm still having a hell of a time getting the cost of propane to balance out better than the electricity I use now, along with improvements in insulation.

I guess until the loss of utility electricity becomes a real thing around here, I'm probably not going to be a big fan of propane.

Still, you did not make a case against propane.
For one, if you're off grid, which is what this thread is about, you won't be running to the gas station to fill a 5, or 25 lb bottle.
I have a 500 gallon tank, I choose when to fill it, usually in August when supplies are high and price is cheap as opposed to nickel and diming yourself to death when demand is high. Usually filed every other year.

I get it for anywhere from 75 cents to a buck $1.30 a gallon. Station fill per gallon can run as much as $6.00 per gallon, that's simply crazy to pay that much.

This alone makes it beyond feasible, it makes it a necessity. I'm adding another 500 gallon tank just so we'll have several years of buffer.
Fridge, heat, tankless water, cooking, any of these on of solar is beyond stupid.
Yes, we have a 20 Cu' profession fridge, and an 18Cu' deep freeze, but we have a new propane fridge ready to replace and install, but my health won't allow for it yet.

The propane fridge will probably save us a thousand a year over diesel, having to run the genset to make up for the loss has been very taxing on the system.
There is nothing cheap about living off grid, Nothing, and as soon as I get the pressure tank installed, we may actually give up running the generator altogether.

It all takes time and money, but you can achieve equilibrium on solar, just be prepared to pay a shitload of money.
Oh, then there's that little issue of up keep.

Quote from: Solar on December 10, 2021, 12:18:10 PMStill, you did not make a case against propane.
For one, if you're off grid, which is what this thread is about, you won't be running to the gas station to fill a 5, or 25 lb bottle.
I have a 500 gallon tank, I choose when to fill it, usually in August when supplies are high and price is cheap as opposed to nickel and diming yourself to death when demand is high. Usually filed every other year.

I get it for anywhere from 75 cents to a buck $1.30 a gallon. Station fill per gallon can run as much as $6.00 per gallon, that's simply crazy to pay that much.

This alone makes it beyond feasible, it makes it a necessity. I'm adding another 500 gallon tank just so we'll have several years of buffer.
Fridge, heat, tankless water, cooking, any of these on of solar is beyond stupid.
Yes, we have a 20 Cu' profession fridge, and an 18Cu' deep freeze, but we have a new propane fridge ready to replace and install, but my health won't allow for it yet.

The propane fridge will probably save us a thousand a year over diesel, having to run the genset to make up for the loss has been very taxing on the system.
There is nothing cheap about living off grid, Nothing, and as soon as I get the pressure tank installed, we may actually give up running the generator altogether.

It all takes time and money, but you can achieve equilibrium on solar, just be prepared to pay a shitload of money.
Oh, then there's that little issue of up keep.

Yeah, we're seeing it from different perspectives.

For one thing, price! I just filled my 325-gallon tank for house heat and paid $1.999999999 per gallon. (You could round that off to two bucks.) That's a contract price! Without the contract, I'd have had to pay $2.50/gallon for the same gas. If things keep going the way they are right now, the non-contract price will likely hit something well above three bucks/gallon before the frost melts in April. I know it hit $2.799 last winter, and oil prices were a lot lower then.

Also, my usage currently exceeds 1,000 gal/year. I think it was close to 1,300 gal. last year.

Converting my shop to propane would entail either setting a separate large tank or finding, say, a 40-gallon stand-up cylinder that I'd have to take to a filling station myself. Either option is $$$$$$.