My entire life I have been frustrated by the QWERTY keyboard.

Its seemingly random arrangement of characters makes typing everything more difficult than need be.

But I knew my battle was lost when I saw TiVo DVR's and the like maintained this failure even when there are no keyboards at all !

And for that matter, why on God's Green Earth do we have TWO different Number Pad arrangements ? Calculators place the "1" BOTTOM left; Telephones place the "1" TOP left !

One thing is nearly certain - the easily annoyed will be still complaining about this when we are living on the Red Planet. This sort of fail is never fixed.

Quote from: SalemCat on January 17, 2016, 02:30:06 PM
My entire life I have been frustrated by the QWERTY keyboard.

Its seemingly random arrangement of characters makes typing everything more difficult than need be.

But I knew my battle was lost when I saw TiVo DVR's and the like maintained this failure even when there are no keyboards at all !

And for that matter, why on God's Green Earth do we have TWO different Number Pad arrangements ? Calculators place the "1" BOTTOM left; Telephones place the "1" TOP left !

One thing is nearly certain - the easily annoyed will be still complaining about this when we are living on the Red Planet. This sort of fail is never fixed.

As I tell my wife.  People do not make thing just for you.   When I am typing, I like the #'s on the top row.  When I am using Excel I like the number pad on the right side.    I myself like the old rotary phone. 

Quote from: walkstall on January 17, 2016, 02:51:28 PM

As I tell my wife.  People do not make thing just for you.   When I am typing, I like the #'s on the top row.  When I am using Excel I like the number pad on the right side.    I myself like the old rotary phone.

I did not even consider Numbers in a Single Row, with the "1" at the left. That's a 3rd variation, and a very common sense one for a Keyboard.

Quote from: walkstall on January 17, 2016, 02:51:28 PM

As I tell my wife.  People do not make thing just for you.

As a retired Engineer, I can tell you many things are manufactured for ONE person - the BOSS.

Now I'm trying real hard here not to Boss-Bash. There are great ones.

But over the years some really had me scratching my head. They hire Engineers, take great pains to obtain ones with experience. Then ignore their recommendations.

They run Focus Groups, tabulate Customer desires and preferences. Then ignore them.

They hire skilled Industrial Designers, well, you know the drill by now.

So next time you buy a product that does not make sense, or barely works, just know. It's not always an Engineer who is at fault. It's just as likely to be the Owner's incompetent son making that call.

Quote from: SalemCat on January 17, 2016, 04:11:09 PM
As a retired Engineer, I can tell you many things are manufactured for ONE person - the BOSS.

Now I'm trying real hard here not to Boss-Bash. There are great ones.

But over the years some really had me scratching my head. They hire Engineers, take great pains to obtain ones with experience. Then ignore their recommendations.

They run Focus Groups, tabulate Customer desires and preferences. Then ignore them.

They hire skilled Industrial Designers, well, you know the drill by now.

So next time you buy a product that does not make sense, or barely works, just know. It's not always an Engineer who is at fault. It's just as likely to be the Owner's incompetent son making that call.

I have wasted more time in meeting.  My last 10 years I would get up and walk out.  If they said something I would say.  Your wasting my time and your as you have made up your mind.  I have been in this occupation for over 25 years and I know what will work and what will not.   

Not one time did I tell them I told you so.  But they did ask later how it should be done when it did not go the way they were thinking it would.  Could they have fired me yes.  But upper management knew there were four other plants that would take me with one e-mail.   Was I the best NO but I learned for the best.

I am sure Qwerty is probably based on some mathematical formula about what letters are used most frequently and is designed for ease of use.

Maybe I am wrong but that is a working theory.

Quote from: ZQuickSilverZ on January 17, 2016, 05:26:23 PM
I am sure Qwerty is probably based on some mathematical formula about what letters are used most frequently and is designed for ease of use.

Maybe I am wrong but that is a working theory.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard-49863249/

Quite a bit here concerning Telegraph Operators and Manual Typewriters.

At any event, QWERTY lives solely on tradition, and is clearly less efficient than DVORAK.

And as for the Number Pad controversy: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question641.htm What is claimed here, is, like QWERTY, the Telephone arrangement was adopted precisely because it IS slower.

When they created the phone keypad and later the typewriter keypad we use today, they actually did studies and found that the arrangement we have today, was the best to prevent a typewriter from jamming.


As for a phone keypad they actually did a study, which wound up giving us what we have today.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/10/keypad-numbering-different-phones/

Quote from: daidalos on January 18, 2016, 11:51:10 AM
When they created the phone keypad and later the typewriter keypad we use today, they actually did studies and found that the arrangement we have today, was the best to prevent a typewriter from jamming.


As for a phone keypad they actually did a study, which wound up giving us what we have today.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/10/keypad-numbering-different-phones/

Excellent. Fascinating.

I'm betting nearly 80% of people go through life without considering why things are the way they are.

Quote from: SalemCat on January 18, 2016, 07:40:41 PM
Excellent. Fascinating.

I'm betting nearly 80% of people go through life without considering why things are the way they are.

Who cares when you can look it up in this day and age.  50% of things I don't care how they work as long as they work.   I have so many useless things in my mind after 65 years of work. 

Quote from: daidalos on January 18, 2016, 11:51:10 AM
When they created the phone keypad and later the typewriter keypad we use today, they actually did studies and found that the arrangement we have today, was the best to prevent a typewriter from jamming.


As for a phone keypad they actually did a study, which wound up giving us what we have today.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/10/keypad-numbering-different-phones/

Typewriter came before the phone. Just saying.

Quote from: Solar on January 18, 2016, 08:15:24 PM
Typewriter came before the phone. Just saying.

So did Hollering, some hollers can be heard up to three miles. My mother was good for about a mile in her younger days.    

Quote from: SalemCat on January 18, 2016, 07:40:41 PM
Excellent. Fascinating.

I'm betting nearly 80% of people go through life without considering why things are the way they are.

And some, like you, are so lazy you depend on others to fill you in, rather than experience real life yourself.

Quote from: Solar on January 18, 2016, 08:15:24 PM
Typewriter came before the phone. Just saying.

Absolutely true, but computer keyboards are far easier to replace instead of bench fees to repair the typewriter key you just beat to death writing your congressdweeb....

Quote from: walkstall on January 18, 2016, 08:01:02 PM

Who cares when you can look it up in this day and age.  50% of things I don't care how they work as long as they work.   I have so many useless things in my mind after 65 years of work. 

Walks you are not alone in that.

I was actually shocked to learn that lots of folks today, don't know how or why a computer works. For example.

They just know they turn it on and do A,B,C with it.

Same with cell phone tech.

Lots of folks have no clue how it does what it does.

All they know is that they turn it on and make calls and run apps with it.

And that's actually led to serious data breach's and identity theft crimes in the past too.

Not only with private individuals, or private corporations/companies.

But with our Government as well. In fact it's in part, from what I've seen in the news and read online,  how Julian Assange was able to do what he did.