Quote from: kramarat on August 03, 2013, 07:54:24 AM
It certainly explains why Snowden had very few options for asylum. It damned sure wouldn't have happened in Europe. I don't see him as a traitor.

This goes beyond anything I could have imagined.

I wonder why so many people don't understand that Snowden had to go somewhere the US couldn't use its influence to get him back. That doesn't leave Snowden, many choices - although come winter in Moscow, I'll bet he wishes he had chosen Cuba.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 03, 2013, 08:02:28 AM
I wonder why so many people don't understand that Snowden had to go somewhere the US couldn't use its influence to get him back. That doesn't leave Snowden, many choices - although come winter in Moscow, I'll bet he wishes he had chosen Cuba.

He'll probably be glad to be alive. This information is pretty much useless to the Russians...however, I'm sure it's got them worried. If the US transforms itself into a truly "evil" empire, the entire planet has reason to be concerned.

I heard Michelle Bachmann interview with Beck the other day, and she categorically denied that anything unscrupulous was going on, and that any listening had to be done with a rock solid warrant.

Houston, we have a problem....

Either she is completely unaware of this, or she is lying. Given Obama's propensity for going completely around congress, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt....for now.

She promised to look into it and report back.

If she knew nothing about it, I'd say that we are firmly in the grip of a political coup.

Here's a more likely scenerio, md...

Lets say that your nephew might have ties to a right wing extremist group like the tea party.

We certainly wouldn't expect the POTUS and the justice dept to simply sit back and ignore a steady stream of incoming "tips" from foreign intelligence sources, now would we?
No US laws broken.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 03, 2013, 05:09:32 AM
Thing I don't get is why they have to pay them. Simple straight up trade, any information they have on US citizens for any information we have on British subjects. Shouldn't we be doing that anyway, with all of our allies?

The Special Relationship as it's called between U.S. and U.K. intelligence has always been one of American money somehow affecting Britain's own priorities and methods of raw data-gathering. GCHQ has been welded at the hip to both CIA and NSA for decades, and I'd be surprised if we had not paid for at least half the GCHQ facilities.

Yes, it's disturbing about that end-run to get from them what we are not supposed to be getting ourselves. Welcome to the world of intelligence gathering. It's amorality on a scale most of us real world folks simply cannot understand. The good spook finds out whatever is out there, and even if he never admits he knows it, he still considers himself ahead of the game simply by knowing it.

So why should we be shocked that Britain gives back in return for the money we've spent for that same data? Why act like the 1947 National Security Act creating the CIA and NSA on the same day is anything NEW? We've had our hands in Britain's spooks world for decades. And yes, we're guilty as hell of bullying them on where their facilities and staff should be focused. All nine seasons of the hit BBC-TV series Spooks (MI-5 in the U.S.) were absolutely peppered with that complaint. American spooks are rich and bullies, in that order.

OK, so it's all public now. From their view the public scandal is only a temporary thing, compared to long view. Practically speaking, U.S./UK/German counterintelligence has now been handed a setback. (Germany appears to be ending its part in this mess by not wanting to renew the agreements.)

Very long-term: Our collective enemies now know that we PROBABLY know thus-and-so between the years this-and-that. From that old missions are reevaluated and possible security leaks to OUR advantage would be sealed. Sleeper agents working for the Brits but funded by Americans could be exposed by these revelations.

Ain't funny when our spies die. The media just ain't helpin' that one at all.

Quote from: quiller on August 03, 2013, 11:24:32 AM
The Special Relationship as it's called between U.S. and U.K. intelligence has always been one of American money somehow affecting Britain's own priorities and methods of raw data-gathering. GCHQ has been welded at the hip to both CIA and NSA for decades, and I'd be surprised if we had not paid for at least half the GCHQ facilities.

Yes, it's disturbing about that end-run to get from them what we are not supposed to be getting ourselves. Welcome to the world of intelligence gathering. It's amorality on a scale most of us real world folks simply cannot understand. The good spook finds out whatever is out there, and even if he never admits he knows it, he still considers himself ahead of the game simply by knowing it.

So why should we be shocked that Britain gives back in return for the money we've spent for that same data? Why act like the 1947 National Security Act creating the CIA and NSA on the same day is anything NEW? We've had our hands in Britain's spooks world for decades. And yes, we're guilty as hell of bullying them on where their facilities and staff should be focused. All nine seasons of the hit BBC-TV series Spooks (MI-5 in the U.S.) were absolutely peppered with that complaint. American spooks are rich and bullies, in that order.

OK, so it's all public now. From their view the public scandal is only a temporary thing, compared to long view. Practically speaking, U.S./UK/German counterintelligence has now been handed a setback. (Germany appears to be ending its part in this mess by not wanting to renew the agreements.)

Very long-term: Our collective enemies now know that we PROBABLY know thus-and-so between the years this-and-that. From that old missions are reevaluated and possible security leaks to OUR advantage would be sealed. Sleeper agents working for the Brits but funded by Americans could be exposed by these revelations.

Ain't funny when our spies die. The media just ain't helpin' that one at all.

There's no question; and the relationship was likely forged in steel back in WWII....after all, if we're paying the bills, shouldn't we be able to direct the intelligence efforts?

Here's the problem...

Over all of those decades, how many times was the American public declared as the enemy?

How many of those presidents had openly declared their contempt for the US constitution, and those that believe in adhering to it?

How many of those presidents told their ragtag bunch of followers to vote for revenge?

We've had some damned stupid and misdirected administrations, but we've never seen the likes of this latest band of criminals.

I've got no argument that the Obama administration is an ongoing racketeer-influenced corrupt organization under all qualifications for prosecution under RICO statute law.

If in fact the CIA could have saved Benghazi murders from happening --- and were told by the White House to stand down rather than blow their local cover in running guns --- then Obama, Holder, Hillary Clinton and every single other party involved should be welded into cells at Leavenworth.

Quote from: quiller on August 03, 2013, 12:12:48 PM
I've got no argument that the Obama administration is an ongoing racketeer-influenced corrupt organization under all qualifications for prosecution under RICO statute law.

If in fact the CIA could have saved Benghazi murders from happening --- and were told by the White House to stand down rather than blow their local cover in running guns --- then Obama, Holder, Hillary Clinton and every single other party involved should be welded into cells at Leavenworth.

You are way too kind. Shooter is right...you're getting soft.

I've been working myself into another fit today, thinking about this.

The stupid republicans expended all kinds of political capital on the damned Lewinsky deal. No one cared, and everyone knew the truth...the democrats successfully turned it into a fiasco that was conjured up by a bunch of old, sexually repressed, white dudes.

Now, we've got genuine criminality across the board, and the bulk of the GOP is cowering like f**king dogs. It just makes me sick.

Quote from: kramarat on August 03, 2013, 12:21:23 PM
You are way too kind. Shooter is right...you're getting soft.

Ewwwwww, you don't have to be hurtful and stuff here, ya know..... I'm just marshaling my energies. Higher causes. I have a list somewhere.

QuoteI've been working myself into another fit today, thinking about this.

The stupid republicans expended all kinds of political capital on the damned Lewinsky deal. No one cared, and everyone knew the truth...the democrats successfully turned it into a fiasco that was conjured up by a bunch of old, sexually repressed, white dudes.

Now, we've got genuine criminality across the board, and the bulk of the GOP is cowering like f**king dogs. It just makes me sick.

Glenn Reynolds made a pretty broad hint that a Lewinsky sex tape is about to surface, and (in some of the finest weasel words this law professor has ever wielded in his amazing 10+ year career at Instapundit), Reynolds managed to imply that Lewinsky and Blue Suit Boy were not alone in another tryst also on film.

Is America ready for its first lesbian president?

Quote from: mdgiles on August 03, 2013, 05:27:23 AM
Uh this isn't about Health Care, it's about a deal our spy agency made with their spy agency. What bother's me is the US subsidizing the other spy agency. That Britain would spy on everyone not British is understood, that's what countries do. But they should be more than willing to pass on information to an ally. We shouldn't have to bribe them. That tells me that the British feel they can't trust our guys, and have just decided to make a little money off of them. Is this just another relationship that Obozo has screwed up?

In the Husseincare bill, if I'm not mistaken (been a while since I looked at it), it says the Feds can take money out as much as they want, for any reason to cover any program.

Quote from: quiller on August 03, 2013, 01:34:54 PM
Ewwwwww, you don't have to be hurtful and stuff here, ya know..... I'm just marshaling my energies. Higher causes. I have a list somewhere.

Glenn Reynolds made a pretty broad hint that a Lewinsky sex tape is about to surface, and (in some of the finest weasel words this law professor has ever wielded in his amazing 10+ year career at Instapundit), Reynolds managed to imply that Lewinsky and Blue Suit Boy were not alone in another tryst also on film.

Is America ready for its first lesbian president?

I can't even comment on that.

Another big distraction on the path to socialism?

I would pay Hillary to leave her clothes on. I damned sure have no interest in a sex tape.