the issue of life is #1 for me. I cannot vote for someone who is not willing to defend the sanctity of life. Or if i even think someone is lying about being pro-life just for politics i won't vote for them.

I used to be pro-abortion. Or to put it another way. I didn't think deep enough about the issue. I wasn't political and was maybe just too self-absorbed.  Then one night a Christian friend of mine and i were having a discussion. There were actually four of us school mates in the discussion and my friend was the only one who was pro-life.  We discussed it for awhile and then he said consider the following: "Imagine you come from a culture where no one has even heard of abortion and where abortion does not exist. Now imagine you are observing another culture and you see that this culture is performing operations on pregnant women where they remove the fetus (and sometimes a baby) from them and then kill it.  You would think this is barbaric. You would think the culture you were observing was primitive. You would think they were involved in human sacrifice for all you know it" And then my friend continued and he said "now imagine you confronted someone in this culture who had this operation and asked them why they had allowed it and imagine if they responded that they allowed it because they just weren't ready to raise a child. You would think this culture is immoral and inferior"

After this discussion my friends and I who were not pro-life became pro-life. We all became pro-life that night. This was 20 years ago and we were 18 years old.

Mitt Romney now says he is pro-life. Yet in 1994 at the age of 47 Romney he emphatically said he was not pro-life.  I'm sorry but by the time someone is 47 they should know right or wrong. His reason for this he says is because he had a close family member die from an illegal abortion. Now just insert this scenario into the argument my friend made. It doesn't make it anymore right. In fact, if Romney's close family friend didn't seek an illegal abortion she would likely still be alive.  Here is the video of Romney saying why he is not pro-life.

Mitt Romney claims he will not be Multiple Choice on Abortion (1994)

so my Christian friends. Why would i even consider voting for someone who is clearly lying and saying he is pro-life for political reasons? Don't get me wrong. I am not voting for Obama either. When I walk into the booth i will be punching a hole for a candidate that is truly pro-life. Eight years of Romney would be the death knell for our cause.

I don't quite understand why abortion is supposed to look more or less barbaric depending on whether I'm viewing it from the perspective of some outsider culture or not.  I suppose the idea is to get me to view abortion from the position of a neutral, unbiased observer.  But there's nothing there in the thought experiment that actually seems to show why abortion should or would actually be judged as barbaric by this other culture.

Why couldn't we just as well say the culture would view it as barbaric and insane to treat a mindless single celled organism as a person, with all the moral status of a thinking, feeling, talking, and mindful self-aware being?

It looks like the thought experiment relies on the subjective biases and emotions that it dishonestly makes pretend to discard.  In other words, it only works if you assume some particular moralistic view (and beg the question), not if you adopt some neutral position. (And so I do hope your view on abortion was based on more than simply this flimsy and fallacious thought experiment).

From the neutral position you need facts, reasons, and logic to make your case - not simply some emotive appeal to mysterious cultures, who for no reason whatsoever, just think abortion is wrong.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be a bit hypocritical here.  You just said you used to be pro-abortion but then you thought more on the issue and changed your mind.  Then you criticize Romney for doing the same thing just because his time table for reconsideration wasn't the same as yours.  I'm just having a bit of trouble understanding your thought process here.

Your contention that he is "clearly lying" is without merit.  What evidence do you have that he's lying?  What has he done since changing his mind that has indicated a lie?  Basically, you are ASSUMING he's lying without evidence.  What does Matthew 7:2 tell us?  Is that the standard by which you wish to be judged?  Do you want others to simply assume you're lying all the time without evidence?

I suggest you think carefully, pray about it until election day and let the Lord guide your conscience at the voting booth.  Don't forget to consider the massive evil that the Obama regime represents if re-elected with no fear of consequences.

Yeah I disagree. I used to be pro-abortion back when I wasn't such a good Christian. Now I am extremely, extremely pro-life. I'm not lying for political reasons. And like Bossfrog mentioned, what evidence do you have to support your claim that he's lying for political reasons?

This issue is a tricky one when you don't know all the facts. I submit that Romney, much like myself, probably didn't know all the facts and when he learned them, realized abortion is wrong and changed his mind.

Quote from: bossfrog on September 16, 2012, 11:01:14 PM
I'm sorry, but you seem to be a bit hypocritical here.  You just said you used to be pro-abortion but then you thought more on the issue and changed your mind.  Then you criticize Romney for doing the same thing just because his time table for reconsideration wasn't the same as yours.  I'm just having a bit of trouble understanding your thought process here.

Your contention that he is "clearly lying" is without merit.  What evidence do you have that he's lying?  What has he done since changing his mind that has indicated a lie?  Basically, you are ASSUMING he's lying without evidence.  What does Matthew 7:2 tell us?  Is that the standard by which you wish to be judged?  Do you want others to simply assume you're lying all the time without evidence?

I suggest you think carefully, pray about it until election day and let the Lord guide your conscience at the voting booth.  Don't forget to consider the massive evil that the Obama regime represents if re-elected with no fear of consequences.

did you watch the video? In the video he said he is pro-choice because he will not let his personal view on the matter decide what the choice is for others. And the reason he gives is that a family member died from an illegal abortion.  So, he's always been personally against abortion. Thats not the issue. What made him pro-choice in 1994 and up until he started running for President was views that were influenced by the family member who died. So what has changed with that?  Romney says he has evolved on the issue of life. But thats not true since he's always personally been against abortion. He should come out and say he has changed his mind on the issue of choice.

He is a guy who has changed his mind on a lot of issues for political reasons. In that same debate he said he would be better for the gays than Ted Kennedy. So has he evolved on that too?

Romney's older sister, at an event called Women in Romney was asked about his stance on abortion. She said ""He's not going to be touching any of that. It's not his focus." "Mitt's much more in the middle" when it comes to abortion, she added.
http://www.newsmax.com/US/Romney-sister-ban-abortion/2012/08/30/id/450344

In the middle on abortion? where is that? That sounds like that wish-washy choice answer he gave when he was 47.

Quote from: Halford9 on September 16, 2012, 08:15:26 PM
the issue of life is #1 for me. I cannot vote for someone who is not willing to defend the sanctity of life. Or if i even think someone is lying about being pro-life just for politics i won't vote for them.

so my Christian friends. Why would i even consider voting for someone who is clearly lying and saying he is pro-life for political reasons? Don't get me wrong. I am not voting for Obama either. When I walk into the booth i will be punching a hole for a candidate that is truly pro-life. Eight years of Romney would be the death knell for our cause.

Why do I get the feeling you're a troll?
This election never was about abortion, but your need to make it one, screams lefty troll!
Abortion should be a states issue, so trying to inject it in to the platform, is nothing short of a divisive measure, screw that shit, Hussein is far more destructive to our nation and culture than a million abortion clinics, yet you seem to have a myopic view on the issue, one I don't buy.

Quote from: Solar on September 17, 2012, 06:24:23 AM
Why do I get the feeling you're a troll?
This election never was about abortion, but your need to make it one, screams lefty troll!
Abortion should be a states issue, so trying to inject it in to the platform, is nothing short of a divisive measure, screw that shit, Hussein is far more destructive to our nation and culture than a million abortion clinics, yet you seem to have a myopic view on the issue, one I don't buy.

1. Exactly

2.  Name this mystery candidate, obviously they would need votes, but you aren't hear for that are you, just to smear Romney.

3.  PERHAPS, if you genuinely cared at all, you might find that he changed his mind on abortion after he and his wife suffered a miscarriage.  He is still not completely pro-life, but he does feel that the current laws go way too far. 

Focusing whether or not you vote for someone or not based on a 38 second video clip taken almost two decades ago, is frankly stupid.  By the logic you state, you would vote for Obama agaon if he was pro-life.  You are effectively saying screw the economy, jobs, constitution, foreign policy, etc, because you want someone in the white house who you think might do something about abortion.

You want something done about abortion?  Vote Romney, he will have the opportunity to nominate four supreme court justices.  Heaven help us if Obama has that opportunity.

Quote from: bossfrog on September 16, 2012, 11:01:14 PM
I'm sorry, but you seem to be a bit hypocritical here.  You just said you used to be pro-abortion but then you thought more on the issue and changed your mind.  Then you criticize Romney for doing the same thing just because his time table for reconsideration wasn't the same as yours.  I'm just having a bit of trouble understanding your thought process here.

Your contention that he is "clearly lying" is without merit.  What evidence do you have that he's lying?  What has he done since changing his mind that has indicated a lie?  Basically, you are ASSUMING he's lying without evidence.  What does Matthew 7:2 tell us?  Is that the standard by which you wish to be judged?  Do you want others to simply assume you're lying all the time without evidence?

I suggest you think carefully, pray about it until election day and let the Lord guide your conscience at the voting booth.  Don't forget to consider the massive evil that the Obama regime represents if re-elected with no fear of consequences.

Well said BF.

Quote from: Halford9 on September 17, 2012, 12:47:25 AM
did you watch the video? In the video he said he is pro-choice because he will not let his personal view on the matter decide what the choice is for others. And the reason he gives is that a family member died from an illegal abortion.  So, he's always been personally against abortion. Thats not the issue. What made him pro-choice in 1994 and up until he started running for President was views that were influenced by the family member who died. So what has changed with that?  Romney says he has evolved on the issue of life. But thats not true since he's always personally been against abortion. He should come out and say he has changed his mind on the issue of choice.

He is a guy who has changed his mind on a lot of issues for political reasons. In that same debate he said he would be better for the gays than Ted Kennedy. So has he evolved on that too?

Romney's older sister, at an event called Women in Romney was asked about his stance on abortion. She said ""He's not going to be touching any of that. It's not his focus." "Mitt's much more in the middle" when it comes to abortion, she added.
http://www.newsmax.com/US/Romney-sister-ban-abortion/2012/08/30/id/450344

In the middle on abortion? where is that? That sounds like that wish-washy choice answer he gave when he was 47.

Care to guess where Hussein stands on the issue?
You know, the leading cause of death in the Black community, abortion!

But no, you want to chastise a candidate on a single issue, but ignore Hussein on a thousand issues that are destroying the country.
You strike me as one of those guys that latches onto the latest fad, from magnets that heal, to the latest herb that cures all, with fanaticism I might add.

Abortion is settled law. Romney's views will have no bearing on it.

Quote from: Halford9 on September 17, 2012, 12:47:25 AM
did you watch the video? In the video he said he is pro-choice because he will not let his personal view on the matter decide what the choice is for others. And the reason he gives is that a family member died from an illegal abortion.  So, he's always been personally against abortion. Thats not the issue. What made him pro-choice in 1994 and up until he started running for President was views that were influenced by the family member who died. So what has changed with that?  Romney says he has evolved on the issue of life. But thats not true since he's always personally been against abortion. He should come out and say he has changed his mind on the issue of choice.

He is a guy who has changed his mind on a lot of issues for political reasons. In that same debate he said he would be better for the gays than Ted Kennedy. So has he evolved on that too?

Romney's older sister, at an event called Women in Romney was asked about his stance on abortion. She said ""He's not going to be touching any of that. It's not his focus." "Mitt's much more in the middle" when it comes to abortion, she added.
http://www.newsmax.com/US/Romney-sister-ban-abortion/2012/08/30/id/450344

In the middle on abortion? where is that? That sounds like that wish-washy choice answer he gave when he was 47.

You're you're going on hearsay and things he said before he reconsidered?  You're judging him on a very flimsy premise.  I think I'm going to judge you by the standard you just set and say your a bit soft in the head.  I hope you don't live in a swing state, but if you do and you don't vote for Romney, and Obama wins by razor thin margin, he WILL make it mandatory for government funds to pay for abortions and that's just one of mountain of evils he will unleash on this country and you will find yourself partly responsible for it happening.  I don't think you want that on your conscience, troll.

Legal, Safe and Rare. That used to be the Dimocraptic mantra.
That doesn't include partial birth abortion. Or abortion as a means of birth control. Or abortion as a means of hiding statutory rape or child abuse. Or abortion on minors without the permission of parents. Or allowing children who some how survive abortion to just die. You betray your troll ancestry, in that it's all or nothing to you (not to mention you gave it away earlier). A person can be pro-life without refusing to recognize sometimes difficult choices have to be made. Though there have been a number of cases where mothers declined chemotherapy, sacrificing their own lives to save the life of their unborn child

i'm not a troll. I just don't believe for a second Romney is pro-life. Am i only allowed to post here if i'm a Romney supporter? I'm not. I prefer Virgil Goode. He's got a 100% pro/life record.

Now just imagine if someone like Mike Huckabee was President and there was a republican house and senate. Would abortion be on the table? You better believe it would. It would be #1

Because the reality is the house and senate will be republican.

now i'm supposed to choose between the liberal obama and the liberal Romney? Lets see...8 years of Romney...no pro-life agenda....the house will fall to the dems in the mid-terms cuz thats how it goes especially when its a liberal republican.

now..4 yrs of obama...he will have completed his marxist communist plot to takeover the white house but nice try he will have a republican house and senate. So the boy won't be able to do much. In 4 years a real republican will be primed to win the WH - a real conservative that is pro-life. He will come in with a republican house and senate and then there will be a conservative social renaissance.

sometimes you need to take a step back to really move forward.

Quote from: Halford9 on September 17, 2012, 11:21:32 AM
i'm not a troll. I just don't believe for a second Romney is pro-life. Am i only allowed to post here if i'm a Romney supporter? I'm not. I prefer Virgil Goode. He's got a 100% pro/life record.

Now just imagine if someone like Mike Huckabee was President and there was a republican house and senate. Would abortion be on the table? You better believe it would. It would be #1

Because the reality is the house and senate will be republican.

now i'm supposed to choose between the liberal obama and the liberal Romney? Lets see...8 years of Romney...no pro-life agenda....the house will fall to the dems in the mid-terms cuz thats how it goes especially when its a liberal republican.

now..4 yrs of obama...he will have completed his marxist communist plot to takeover the white house but nice try he will have a republican house and senate. So the boy won't be able to do much. In 4 years a real republican will be primed to win the WH - a real conservative that is pro-life. He will come in with a republican house and senate and then there will be a conservative social renaissance.

sometimes you need to take a step back to really move forward.

As opposed to Obama - who's in favor of infanticide. Again. Not being pro-life enough to suit you, does not make someone pro-abortion.

Wait a second!  Obama was anti-gay marriage before he was pro...Oh, that's right....he evolved!