Quote from: Shooterman on July 16, 2012, 09:40:47 AM


Franklin was a philosopher. He never put one thought to paper that passed as legislation or as a a founding within the Constitution.

And a socialist at heart, I'm glad he was left out.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 16, 2012, 09:58:06 AM
Whatever. And I am not a contrarian - I'm simply right most of the time 

I, as the nicest guy you will ever meet, was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. So much for that, though you most likely have proven my point.

QuoteAs you prove my point, for some reason the men who actually made the Revolution successful: Washington, on the battlefield, and the way he used and surrendered power.

Making Washington, of course, a very fine general and officer, among others that were very fine officers.

QuoteAnd Franklin for his diplomacy that convinced the French to enter, against their own best interests (help rebels throw out a King) are shunted aside. Jefferson wasn't even in the country for the writing of the Constitution. Madison did that.

Unless I am mistaken, I believe the gentleman you give much diplomatic credit to, also had Monsieurs Thomas Jefferson and John Adams with him. I understand Old Ben was quite the raconteur, a noteworthy trait at times, and a philosopher. Imagine that. He also may have spent quite a bit of time doing diplomatic work with some of the fair maidens of France, as well. But, so what? The absolute best mind and statesman of his time was George Mason, but the superb Mr Mason never became President, mores the pity, and after he refused to sigh off on the Constitution, Mr Washington cut off his friendship in a fit of petty anger, though they had been friends for a lifetime and were neighbors.

I would suggest, MD, though you may wish to continue with this back and forth, you shall do so on your own. Until the next foray into the mind of Jefferson, or more so, into the mind of Mason, I bid you adieu and a good evening.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 15, 2012, 03:11:22 PM
No, actually I think Jefferson was a great man, I simply don't worship him as a Demigod. As I noted earlier, I think Washington was a much finer human being than Jefferson.

Washington's neighbor, Mrs. Fairfax would probably agree. I do believe that both Jefferson and Washington are worthy of our admiration and gratitude.  However, most men have their foibles as did they.  In the grand scheme of things, it made no difference to their contributions to the world at large and this country in particular.