Quote from: lindcamp on February 19, 2014, 11:13:17 AM
One thing I didn't like about the old system was health insurance being tied to my job. Because I'm a mechanic my medical procedure might be 2000, but the plumber down the street might only be charged 1500 for the same exact procedure.

You agree with us conservatives on HSAs.   Good boy. (* pats lindcamp on the head *)

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How would you feel about having the state exchanges (with more options) available to everyone, but zero government subsidies for the poor. Basically separating the cost of my medical treatment from my employment. I always felt they should be unrelated.

They should be.  Read up on HSAs. It's another concept destroyed by the liberals.

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The portion that my employer pays will be available to me to apply to any plan of my choosing on the exchange.

There doesn't need to be an exchange, unless it's a private one.

Quote from: taxed on February 19, 2014, 11:20:57 AM
They should be.  Read up on HSAs. It's another concept destroyed by the liberals.

Thanks for the heads up!

Quote from: The Boo Man... on February 19, 2014, 10:57:36 AM
If you understood the system as it was designed you would see that it worked fine and it wasn't until the government got involved that problems began to arise.

I agree that government involvement and over-regulation made things worse.

But it is an enormous stretch to say it was 'fine' when many Americans could not get proper health care, many Americans went bankrupt over health care, and the taxpayer was paying anyways for tens of thousands of uncovered people using ERs as general practitioners.

It needed to be fixed, or perhaps just 'improved' is a better word.

Of course what we got instead was an asinine liberal concoction that made everything vastly worse.

Quote from: Gaunt on February 19, 2014, 11:22:46 AM
I agree that government involvement and over-regulation made things worse.

But it is an enormous stretch to say it was 'fine' when many Americans could not get proper health care, many Americans went bankrupt over health care, and the taxpayer was paying anyways for tens of thousands of uncovered people using ERs as general practitioners.

It needed to be fixed, or perhaps just 'improved' is a better word.

Of course what we got instead was an asinine liberal concoction that made everything vastly worse.

So you have no idea how the concept was designed.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on February 19, 2014, 11:24:12 AM
So you have no idea how the concept was designed.

Sorry, that wasn't clear. Which concept?

Quote from: Gaunt on February 19, 2014, 11:31:44 AM
Sorry, that wasn't clear. Which concept?

Our health care system. Do you understand how it was designed and originally implemented? If so explain it to me.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on February 19, 2014, 11:34:06 AM
Our health care system. Do you understand how it was designed and originally implemented? If so explain it to me.

I assume you mean prior to the ACA.

Honestly? No, I dont really. From what I understood it wasn't actually designed, it rather came about organically, with increasing government involvement to fill in the gaps in coverage. But as I said, I dont really know.

But, more to the point, I'm not sure its relevant. What matters is the system we ended up with, in 2008. And that system was badly in need of common sense reform.

Quote from: supsalemgr on February 19, 2014, 11:20:45 AM
"Because I'm a mechanic my medical procedure might be 2000, but the plumber down the street might only be charged 1500 for the same exact procedure. "

Please explain what you mean by the above quote. Are you suggesting that providers charge different amounts for the same procedure based on their occupation? If that is so, what is your proof source?

I would say he doesn't know jack about unions contracts.  The other union may be giving something up for better health insurance.  Some people may give a paid holiday or vacations time for better health insurance.  Also plumbers were a closed shop at one time. 

Quote from: Gaunt on February 19, 2014, 11:38:41 AM
I assume you mean prior to the ACA.

Honestly? No, I dont really. From what I understood it wasn't actually designed, it rather came about organically, with increasing government involvement to fill in the gaps in coverage. But as I said, I dont really know.

But, more to the point, I'm not sure its relevant. What matters is the system we ended up with, in 2008. And that system was badly in need of common sense reform.

Health insurance was simply a monetary leverage against catastrophic accident or illness. Ir was designed to prevent people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses. What we call today catastrophic insurance. So you paid for everything else. Doctor visits, medication, ER visits, x-rays, mammograms etc.. And health care was affordable because it operated within a free market system. There was actual competition. It was affordable to all except the very poor.

It was when the government got involved that the we began the transformation to the problem we have today. The government began mandating what insurance policies would cover. The more that had to be covered logically means higher premiums. The more that the doctors had to deal with the government (regulations) and the increasing number of payments that came from insurance companies rather than directly from the patient increased the cost of healthcare. Then factor in outrageous lawsuits that increased the cost of malpractice insurance and you have what we had before Obamacare.

Government created the problem then pledged to fix the problem they caused by replacing the system the broke with a system that was broken to begin with.

Quote from: Gaunt on February 19, 2014, 11:38:41 AM
I assume you mean prior to the ACA.

Honestly? No, I dont really. From what I understood it wasn't actually designed, it rather came about organically, with increasing government involvement to fill in the gaps in coverage. But as I said, I dont really know.

But, more to the point, I'm not sure its relevant. What matters is the system we ended up with, in 2008. And that system was badly in need of common sense reform.

Here's the rub, in 2008 about 80% of the folks were HAPPY with what they had!!

And now???

Quote from: The Boo Man... on February 19, 2014, 11:52:05 AM
Health insurance was simply a monetary leverage against catastrophic accident or illness. Ir was designed to prevent people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses. What we call today catastrophic insurance. So you paid for everything else. Doctor visits, medication, ER visits, x-rays, mammograms etc.. And health care was affordable because it operated within a free market system. There was actual competition. It was affordable to all except the very poor.

It was when the government got involved that the we began the transformation to the problem we have today. The government began mandating what insurance policies would cover. The more that had to be covered logically means higher premiums. The more that the doctors had to deal with the government (regulations) and the increasing number of payments that came from insurance companies rather than directly from the patient increased the cost of healthcare. Then factor in outrageous lawsuits that increased the cost of malpractice insurance and you have what we had before Obamacare.

Government created the problem then pledged to fix the problem they caused by replacing the system the broke with a system that was broken to begin with.

Why do these people always confuse health care with insurance?  Is it really that difficult of a concept?

Quote from: Ek Ehecatl on February 19, 2014, 12:05:32 PM


Here's the rub, in 2008 about 80% of the folks were HAPPY with what they had!!

And now???

Ok, I dont know how many times I need to repeat this. I will try one more time.

Pointing out the flaws in our old health care system, and there were many, in no way means I am advocating, approving of, supporting, or endorsing the abomination of Obamacare.

Obamacare has taken our old problems, made them worse, created a host of new problems, and is an utter catastrophe. period.


My point always was and remains, that in 2008 we needed common sense health care reform to fix our system. sadly, that is not what we got.

Quote from: Gaunt on February 19, 2014, 12:10:06 PM

Ok, I dont know how many times I need to repeat this. I will try one more time.

Pointing out the flaws in our old health care system, and there were many, in no way means I am advocating, approving of, supporting, or endorsing the abomination of Obamacare.

Obamacare has taken our old problems, made them worse, created a host of new problems, and is an utter catastrophe. period.


My point always was and remains, that in 2008 we needed common sense health care reform to fix our system. sadly, that is not what we got.

Oh for fucks sake!

THE GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM. THE SYSTEM WORKED FINE UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT STEPPED IN.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on February 19, 2014, 12:13:09 PM
Oh for fucks sake!

THE GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM. THE SYSTEM WORKED FINE UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT STEPPED IN.

Very impressive. Also irrelevant.

We agree that excessive government regulation and intervention is part of the problem.

The fact is, it was not fine, even apart from that. Our average healthcare outcomes were lower than most of our first world peers, we had people without healthcare and using ERs as GPs. This is not a world-beating system. And we deserve a world beating system.

The answer is NOT Obamacare (obviously), but neither is it returning to our 2008 status quo.

That is, and has always been my only point.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on February 19, 2014, 11:52:05 AM
Health insurance was simply a monetary leverage against catastrophic accident or illness. Ir was designed to prevent people from going bankrupt due to medical expenses. What we call today catastrophic insurance. So you paid for everything else. Doctor visits, medication, ER visits, x-rays, mammograms etc.. And health care was affordable because it operated within a free market system. There was actual competition. It was affordable to all except the very poor.

It sounds idyllic. But I'm sure you can see the problem.

That was a long time ago.


Before MRIs, and PET scans, before 10,000$ a day retrovirals, before chemotherapy and drug cocktails and rehabilitation.

The cost of personal healthcare has boomed, not just because of government intervention (though we agree thats certainly part of it), but because of the development of the health system and health alternatives.

60 years ago if you got cancer, you died. Cost? painkilling drugs and hospice care.

Now if you get cancer your treatments run into $100,000 per month. Obviously, your average person cannot pay for that out of pocket. And there is no 'free market system' that can make that suddenly affordable to an average middle class individual.