Quote from: Gator Monroe on November 22, 2014, 10:52:12 PM
And I have known highly educated & successful people who could not drive a stick or change a flat tire or swap out a toilet or load a bb gun if their lives depended on it (And they are clueless to the danger that surrounds them on a daily basis in life)

Probably Government workers!!

Quote from: Dori on November 23, 2014, 03:53:02 PM
Obamacare isn't a state program, it's a federal program.  It was deliberately written in a way to force the states to pick up the bill for all those uninsured poor people, that's why they set the income limits where they did.  Unfortunately for those brilliant Harvard grads, they weren't as smart as they thought they were. Obamacare has cost a lot more than they projected.  The whole thing was a scam from the beginning.  Haven't you heard any of the John Gruber tapes?

Part of Obamacare required all states to provide Medicaid for people with incomes ranging from 0 dollars to 138% of the poverty line. If they make between 100-400% of the poverty line, they could be eligible for subsidies. This would have closed the loophole they young lady in question fell through.

You are correct that Obamacare is a federal program, however the Supreme Court decided that individual states could opt out of the Medicaid expansion. Obviously the young lady's state chose to do so.

Quote from: Hector on November 23, 2014, 04:33:12 PM
Part of Obamacare required all states to provide Medicaid for people with incomes ranging from 0 dollars to 138% of the poverty line. If they make between 100-400% of the poverty line, they could be eligible for subsidies. This would have closed the loophole they young lady in question fell through.

You are correct that Obamacare is a federal program, however the Supreme Court decided that individual states could opt out of the Medicaid expansion. Obviously the young lady's state chose to do so.

But, you leave out, what I like to call the reality factor.

The lady in question had very affordable private insurance before the advent of Obamacare. However, due to the capricious regulations associated with the so-called Affordable Care Act, that company withdrew from the private insurance field.

In short, she liked her insurance, but was unable to keep it!

Darth

Quote from: Darth Fife on November 23, 2014, 09:26:55 PM
But, you leave out, what I like to call the reality factor.

The lady in question had very affordable private insurance before the advent of Obamacare. However, due to the capricious regulations associated with the so-called Affordable Care Act, that company withdrew from the private insurance field.

In short, she liked her insurance, but was unable to keep it!

Darth

Oh I'm sorry I left that part out, it was probably because you never mentioned it and I had no possible way of knowing it.

Quote from: Hector on November 23, 2014, 10:04:42 PM
Oh I'm sorry I left that part out, it was probably because you never mentioned it and I had no possible way of knowing it.

If I were to say it's beautiful outside, the birds are singing, the air is fresh and not a cloud in the sky.
Do I really need to state the obvious because I didn't mention it's daytime and the sun is out?

Nearly the entire nation loses their insurance, costs increased, told they must carry explicit coverage for maternity coverage, even if you're a 60 year old male etc.
So if your policy didn't include these specifics, they were null and void and you had to join an exchange.

Yeah, stating the obvious. I knew what he was talking about from his first post, otherwise why would she be so concerned in the first place?

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2014, 04:37:38 AM
If I were to say it's beautiful outside, the birds are singing, the air is fresh and not a cloud in the sky.
Do I really need to state the obvious because I didn't mention it's daytime and the sun is out?

Nearly the entire nation loses their insurance, costs increased, told they must carry explicit coverage for maternity coverage, even if you're a 60 year old male etc.
So if your policy didn't include these specifics, they were null and void and you had to join an exchange.

Yeah, stating the obvious. I knew what he was talking about from his first post, otherwise why would she be so concerned in the first place?

I didn't assume someone who is below the poverty level was shelling out money for private insurance. I'm sure people do it everyday (or did), but in my experience, people below the poverty level struggle to pay rent and put food on the table.

I never understood the concern for having insurance that covers things you'll never need. Isn't that the basis of insurance?

Yeah, 60 year old men are paying for women's maternity coverage. Big deal. 20 year old women are paying for those men's prostate cancer surgery. Young men have insurance policies that cover mammograms. Old women have policies that cover testicular cancer. Nuns have policies that cover STDs. People who are sterile have policies that would cover birth defects. That's how insurance has always worked. If you only want to cover the exact health issues that you have, there's a policy for that. It's called a savings account.

When has insurance ever been ala carte?

Quote from: Hector on November 24, 2014, 06:35:21 AM
I didn't assume someone who is below the poverty level was shelling out money for private insurance. I'm sure people do it everyday (or did), but in my experience, people below the poverty level struggle to pay rent and put food on the table.

You can have a job that doesn't pay all that well, but to make up for it, the employer offers insurance as a way of keeping employees, especially those supporting children.
Suddenly the law changes, mandates you must buy insurance the govt deems appropriate, the employer tells his employees he can no longer afford to cover them, so they either break the law, pay the fine, or go on commiecare

QuoteI never understood the concern for having insurance that covers things you'll never need. Isn't that the basis of insurance?

That made absolutely no sense, unless you were trying to help make my point.

QuoteYeah, 60 year old men are paying for women's maternity coverage. Big deal. 20 year old women are paying for those men's prostate cancer surgery. Young men have insurance policies that cover mammograms. Old women have policies that cover testicular cancer. Nuns have policies that cover STDs. People who are sterile have policies that would cover birth defects. That's how insurance has always worked. If you only want to cover the exact health issues that you have, there's a policy for that. It's called a savings account.
When has insurance ever been ala carte?

Wrong! Growing up it was a given that a 20 year old didn't buy health insurance, and no, he would never buy insurance he didn't need, and no insurance co would ever force him to carry crap he'd never use.
If you lived in the mountains, would you buy flood insurance? Of course not, so why should you be forced to subsidized those living in flood zones in the valley?

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2014, 07:09:53 AM
Wrong! Growing up it was a given that a 20 year old didn't buy health insurance, and no, he would never buy insurance he didn't need, and no insurance co would ever force him to carry crap he'd never use.
If you lived in the mountains, would you buy flood insurance? Of course not, so why should you be forced to subsidized those living in flood zones in the valley?

Why wouldn't a 20 year old buy insurance? If he got cancer, fell off the roof and broke his back, got a massive staph infection and required hospitalization, or any other number of things, he could go bankrupt from medical bills? That puts his entire family at risk. I'm not saying he shouldn't have the right not to (I know obamacare disagrees) but it seems extremely foolhardy.

I'm a lot younger than you so I'm guessing medical care was cheaper back then and that was a more feasible option? I can't imagine not having insurance. I bought health insurance as soon as I started working full time. Most people at 20 have very little in savings and investments. How else would you pay the hospital bills?

So are you saying that insurance companies don't use women's premiums to cover men's prostate surgery? They keep all the customers money seperate and make sure no one is paying for procedures that they themselves could never have?

Did they give people without appendixes a discount because they will never need that surgery? Did your insurance go down after your tonsils were removed since you wouldn't have any more issues with that? Did it go down after your kid got chicken pox? No it didn't. You were paying for other kids to get their tonsils removed and their chicken pox treated, even tho you had zero need for that coverage.

I always thought insurance companies collected premiums, pooled that money, used that pool to pay out claims, then kept the remaining as revenue.

Quote from: Hector on November 24, 2014, 07:37:16 AM
Why wouldn't a 20 year old buy insurance? If he got cancer, fell off the roof and broke his back, got a massive staph infection and required hospitalization, or any other number of things, he could go bankrupt from medical bills? That puts his entire family at risk. I'm not saying he shouldn't have the right not to (I know obamacare disagrees) but it seems extremely foolhardy.

Seriously? Do the math. The fact that he is willing to pay out of pocket for something that "Might" happen, and investing the money and letting it grow, and living a healthy lifestyle, as opposed to paying for something he probably and statistically won't need for another 40 years minimum. Is simple commonsense.

QuoteI'm a lot younger than you so I'm guessing medical care was cheaper back then and that was a more feasible option? I can't imagine not having insurance. I bought health insurance as soon as I started working full time. Most people at 20 have very little in savings and investments. How else would you pay the hospital bills?

Then you haven't done any research on the subject. There are alternatives, such as cutting out the middle man and paying the doctor directly saving thousands. I know it works, I still do it.

QuoteSo are you saying that insurance companies don't use women's premiums to cover men's prostate surgery? They keep all the customers money seperate and make sure no one is paying for procedures that they themselves could never have?

Don't be silly. You're assuming one plan fits all as in Commiecare, when before govt interference people only bought insurance to fit "Their" needs.
But nice attempt at strawman.

QuoteDid they give people without appendixes a discount because they will never need that surgery? Did your insurance go down after your tonsils were removed since you wouldn't have any more issues with that? Did it go down after your kid got chicken pox? No it didn't. You were paying for other kids to get their tonsils removed and their chicken pox treated, even tho you had zero need for that coverage.

I always thought insurance companies collected premiums, pooled that money, used that pool to pay out claims, then kept the remaining as revenue.

Again, another attempt at obfuscation, your examples are apples to tomatoes.

Again, you purchased the package that best suited to your needs, that is no longer an option.
Kids today are forced to buy insurance they'll never use, let alone need. How is that a good thing?
With costs increasing due to govt intervention, wouldn't it be better to have the free mkt deciding what works and what doesn't?

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2014, 08:03:26 AM
Seriously? Do the math. The fact that he is willing to pay out of pocket for something that "Might" happen, and investing the money and letting it grow, and living a healthy lifestyle, as opposed to paying for something he probably and statistically won't need for another 40 years minimum. Is simple commonsense.
Then you haven't done any research on the subject. There are alternatives, such as cutting out the middle man and paying the doctor directly saving thousands. I know it works, I still do it.
Don't be silly. You're assuming one plan fits all as in Commiecare, when before govt interference people only bought insurance to fit "Their" needs.
But nice attempt at strawman.
Again, another attempt at obfuscation, your examples are apples to tomatoes.

Again, you purchased the package that best suited to your needs, that is no longer an option.
Kids today are forced to buy insurance they'll never use, let alone need. How is that a good thing?
With costs increasing due to govt intervention, wouldn't it be better to have the free mkt deciding what works and what doesn't?

Exactly, but the answer is even more fundamental.

Where does it say the Federal Government has the authority to force anyone to buy anything?

And, please, Hector, don't embarrass yourself by saying "car insurance" unless you can prove that the Government has the authority to force a person to buy a car!

Darth

Quote from: Solar on November 24, 2014, 08:03:26 AM
Don't be silly. You're assuming one plan fits all as in Commiecare, when before govt interference people only bought insurance to fit "Their" needs.
But nice attempt at strawman.

One plan fits all? What are you talking about? My state offers 107 different plans for me and my wife. They range from 240 a month for a basic plan with 15 dollar copays, a 6.5k deductible with 100 percent coverage after that.

The opposite end of the spectrum is a plan for 830 dollars a month with a ZERO dollar deductible that pays 75% and a 2k a year out of pocket max. So yeah, it's not "one size fits all" whatsoever.

Just for laughs, I input my info as a single 20 year old kid to see what the cheapest plan is. The same 6.5k deductible with 15 dollar copays plan would be available to him for 72 bucks a month without any subsidies whatsoever.

Quote from: Darth Fife on November 24, 2014, 08:54:25 AM
Exactly, but the answer is even more fundamental.

Where does it say the Federal Government has the authority to force anyone to buy anything?

And, please, Hector, don't embarrass yourself by saying "car insurance" unless you can prove that the Government has the authority to force a person to buy a car!

Darth

Yep, which is why I left him with the question of Free mkt dictating cost, though something tells me he under the illusion govt can do it better.

Quote from: Hector on November 24, 2014, 06:35:21 AM
I didn't assume someone who is below the poverty level was shelling out money for private insurance. I'm sure people do it everyday (or did), but in my experience, people below the poverty level struggle to pay rent and put food on the table.

I never understood the concern for having insurance that covers things you'll never need. Isn't that the basis of insurance?

Yeah, 60 year old men are paying for women's maternity coverage. Big deal. 20 year old women are paying for those men's prostate cancer surgery. Young men have insurance policies that cover mammograms. Old women have policies that cover testicular cancer. Nuns have policies that cover STDs. People who are sterile have policies that would cover birth defects. That's how insurance has always worked. If you only want to cover the exact health issues that you have, there's a policy for that. It's called a savings account.

When has insurance ever been ala carte?

No. What liar told you it was?

Insurance has always been a la carte. But what you're describing, and what we're seeing with KenyaCare -- and have been seeing for 80 years with Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, isn't insurance at all. It's wealth redistribution.

I'm sixty years old and widowed, and I had a vasectomy when I was 35. But I can't buy so-called "insurance" on a KenyaCare exchange that doesn't include coverage (and payment for that coverage) for maternity and birth control. That's not insurance. That's wealth redistribution. That's legalized robbery.

KenyaCare is an attempt to destroy the private health insurance industry by turning the insurance companies into agents of nanny government. When consideration of risk is made irrelevant by law, there is no longer any such thing as insurance.

Quote from: TboneAgain on November 24, 2014, 12:15:08 PM
No. What liar told you it was?

Insurance has always been a la carte. But what you're describing, and what we're seeing with KenyaCare -- and have been seeing for 80 years with Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, isn't insurance at all. It's wealth redistribution.

I'm sixty years old and widowed, and I had a vasectomy when I was 35. But I can't buy so-called "insurance" on a KenyaCare exchange that doesn't include coverage (and payment for that coverage) for maternity and birth control. That's not insurance. That's wealth redistribution. That's legalized robbery.

KenyaCare is an attempt to destroy the private health insurance industry by turning the insurance companies into agents of nanny government. When consideration of risk is made irrelevant by law, there is no longer any such thing as insurance.

How would islamo-care destroy private insurance companies?!?

It's a law that now forces people to buy products from private insurance companies and if the customer can't afford it, then the government will pay the private insurance company for them! Not only that, you said yourself it forces you to buy maternity care from them that you don't even need.

Private insurance companies love Osama-care! It's a guaranteed customer base with a guaranteed income.

If you really believe Obammy-care is out to kill private insurance....check the five year stock history on Humana, WellPoint, Cigna, Aetna etc. See how they've performed since Obuzzo-care has rolled out?