Quote from: Tennenbaum on September 09, 2011, 10:29:30 AM
I see this has degenerated entirely into ad hominem and appeal to ridicule....

Extremists on either end, right or left, tend to ad hominem attacks.  Those on the right all harbor a desire, consciously or subconsciously. to be the next Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter.  Those on the left want to be like I don't know who, but I am sure there is an example out there somewhere.  Like Keith Olberman, say.  Anyhow, that's just human nature.

Quote from: Tennenbaum on September 09, 2011, 11:00:07 AM
In strict terms of abortion, probably, though we can't say what would have happened if abortion was made illegal.

I would agree, as most people stay in bounds of the law as much as possible.  Would we agree most of the liberal group would rather make this "choice" totally legal?

Quote from: taxed on September 09, 2011, 11:08:40 AM
I would agree, as most people stay in bounds of the law as much as possible.  Would we agree most of the liberal group would rather make this "choice" totally legal?

Definitely. It already is totally legal.

Quote from: Tennenbaum on September 09, 2011, 11:09:47 AM
Definitely. It already is totally legal.

It is indeed, but up to a point in the pregnanacy term, right?  We agree it is illegal to terminate a baby 30 weeks in, I assume.

Quote from: taxed on September 09, 2011, 11:12:32 AM

It is indeed, but up to a point in the pregnanacy term, right?  We agree it is illegal to terminate a baby 30 weeks in, I assume.

Yes. I don't think that most liberals would push for unrestrained abortion, though. Most are perfectly happy with the first trimester limitation and medical necessity if later.

Quote from: taxed on September 09, 2011, 11:12:32 AM

It is indeed, but up to a point in the pregnanacy term, right?  We agree it is illegal to terminate a baby 30 weeks in, I assume.

I don't think it IS illegal to terminate a pregnancy (kill an unborn baby) after 30 weeks.  Isn't that what the partial birth abortion thing is all about?

Quote from: Tennenbaum on September 09, 2011, 11:13:39 AM
Yes. I don't think that most liberals would push for unrestrained abortion, though. Most are perfectly happy with the first trimester limitation and medical necessity if later.

I certainly agree with that.


Do you think if it was 100% illegal, i.e., a murder charge, that it would reduce the number of abortions, and increase protected sex to an extent?

Quote from: taxed on September 09, 2011, 11:19:44 AM

I certainly agree with that.


Do you think if it was 100% illegal, i.e., a murder charge, that it would reduce the number of abortions, and increase protected sex to an extent?

It would probably decrease the former but not the latter.

Quote from: Tennenbaum on September 09, 2011, 11:20:27 AM
It would probably decrease the former but not the latter.

If offenders were routinely prosecuted, it wouldn't cause people, in general, to take that extra moment and wrap their rascals?

Quote from: taxed on September 09, 2011, 11:24:57 AM

If offenders were routinely prosecuted, it wouldn't cause people, in general, to take that extra moment and wrap their rascals?

I seriously doubt it. We are, for the most part, talking about teenagers here. Teenagers aren't rational and rarely consider even the worst consequences before acting, especially when sex is involved. If AIDS isn't enough to scare kids into using condoms then the distant possibility of being prosecuted for abortion isn't either. I don't think you can say that most young girls assume they will have an abortion if made pregnant either. It is most likely a later decision after the inevitability of having a child is made concrete by pregnancy.

All we'll end up with is more teen mothers.

Quote from: taxed on September 09, 2011, 11:24:57 AM

If offenders were routinely prosecuted, it wouldn't cause people, in general, to take that extra moment and wrap their rascals?

I think it would.  But I don't know that everybody is really willing to do that.  The "all abortion is murder regardless" does not adequately address pregnancies that result from assault.  Should a woman who is impregnated as a result of a brutal assault be forced to choose between carrying that baby to term and a murder charge?  I don't think so, and I don't think there are enough people who DO think so to make it happen.  And certainly a return to pre Roe vs Wade status would not do what you want done. 

Quote from: Tennenbaum on September 09, 2011, 11:27:45 AM
I seriously doubt it. We are, for the most part, talking about teenagers here. Teenagers aren't rational and rarely consider even the worst consequences before acting, especially when sex is involved. If AIDS isn't enough to scare kids into using condoms then the distant possibility of being prosecuted for abortion isn't either. I don't think you can say that most young girls assume they will have an abortion if made pregnant either. It is most likely a later decision after the inevitability of having a child is made concrete by pregnancy.

All we'll end up with is more teen mothers.

I actually agree here, but would offer comprehensive sex ed as a solution. Comprehensive sex ed being something along the lines of "it's best not to play the game, but if you're going to play anyways, at least wear a helmet".

I also think if parents stopped watching reality TV and focused on raising their kids, that would cut down on teen pregnancy. Education is key. Otherwise we'll end up like the movie "Idiocracy".

Quote from: CubaLibre on September 09, 2011, 11:32:13 AM
I actually agree here, but would offer comprehensive sex ed as a solution. Comprehensive sex ed being something along the lines of "it's best not to play the game, but if you're going to play anyways, at least wear a helmet".

I also think if parents stopped watching reality TV and focused on raising their kids, that would cut down on teen pregnancy. Education is key. Otherwise we'll end up like the movie "Idiocracy".

We've had comprehensive sex ed for decades. Still when faced with that awkward moment when there is no condom present I'd bet the same scene plays out across the nation, "Well it'll just be this one time," or "come on, we love each other. if we get pregnant we'll raise the baby."

But yeah, the dumbing down of society has got to stop. I've pretty much stopped watching tv at this point.

Quote from: Tennenbaum on September 09, 2011, 11:27:45 AM
I seriously doubt it. We are, for the most part, talking about teenagers here. Teenagers aren't rational and rarely consider even the worst consequences before acting, especially when sex is involved.

I agree totally with that, but I think about my personal experience.  I was always scared to death, even to this day, of knocking someone up, so as reckless as I was, so I was pretty good about getting armored up.


To spawn a parallel thought that I want to bring back to the main discussion in a bit, I wonder if I was like that because my dad took care of his responsibilities, and I grew up knowing that, i.e., I was so scared to have a kid because I knew I would have to take care of it, where abortion didn't even enter my mind?

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If AIDS isn't enough to scare kids into using condoms then the distant possibility of being prosecuted for abortion isn't either.

I'm with you, but I was never scared of AIDS... I was scared of raising a child.  I still get cold sweats at night from the thought.  I agree with your point, however, that when it's time for kids to get busy, not a lot of caution enters their brain, and kids having kids would still be too common.


Do we agree less of those kids would have abortions, and more would be forced to raise their kids?

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I don't think you can say that most young girls assume they will have an abortion if made pregnant either.

I agree.  That seems to be a game time decision.

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It is most likely a later decision after the inevitability of having a child is made concrete by pregnancy.

Agreed.  I also think many people who are pretty set against abortion may end up change their last minute once it hits them.

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All we'll end up with is more teen mothers.

Here, it seems we agree more mothers will be forced to keep their babies, right?

Quote from: taxed on September 09, 2011, 11:45:11 AM
I agree totally with that, but I think about my personal experience.  I was always scared to death, even to this day, of knocking someone up, so as reckless as I was, so I was pretty good about getting armored up.


To spawn a parallel thought that I want to bring back to the main discussion in a bit, I wonder if I was like that because my dad took care of his responsibilities, and I grew up knowing that, i.e., I was so scared to have a kid because I knew I would have to take care of it, where abortion didn't even enter my mind?


I'm with you, but I was never scared of AIDS... I was scared of raising a child.  I still get cold sweats at night from the thought.  I agree with your point, however, that when it's time for kids to get busy, not a lot of caution enters their brain, and kids having kids would still be too common.


Do we agree less of those kids would have abortions, and more would be forced to raise their kids?



I agree.  That seems to be a game time decision.

Agreed.  I also think many people who are pretty set against abortion may end up change their last minute once it hits them.



Here, it seems we agree more mothers will be forced to keep their babies, right?

Your basic point appears to be that if we take away the choice then more babies will live. That may or may not be true, but I am not willing to do that, and neither are many liberals if I might speak for them.

Allowing people choice and liberty often leads to results we don't all approve of, but that's how it goes.