Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 11:05:40 AM
I believe that issues like this are the ONLY reason for civil government's existence.

Not roads?  Not national defense?  Not patent and copyright enforcement?  Not safe food and drug regulations?  (Maybe that last one fits with protecting the environment, though.)

Quote from: elmerfudd on September 02, 2011, 10:56:23 AM
The market alwas goes with cheapest.  Make the styrofoam more expensive or ban it altogether and the market will find an alternative. Otherwise it won't.  And the swirly bulbs ARE just as bright. They just take a few seconds to warm up.  We Americans are not accustomed to waiting.  We want it NOW.  Not in five seconds. 

Which accomplished what, the closing of the only incandescent light bulb factory in the Country, in turn laying of hundreds of workers?
Yeah, really Bright move.

Quote from: Solar on September 02, 2011, 11:08:33 AM
Look at the reality of this, this is just their first step, they won't stop at foam containers, next foam cups, foam packing, foam in your surf board.
Get ready to pay another 2%+ for everything you buy when they get to where they want to be on this.

Remember when paper bags were destroying old growth forests?
So claimed the libs, then they pressed stores to go to plastic, then so called Big Oil became the villain, so they decided paper bags could be recycled (as well as plastic bags, but they hate being reminded of that little error) so back to paper we went.

Point is, let the mkt decide our behavior, not some stupid chump sitting behind a desk.

I don't let anyone or anything decide my behavior. Not even the market. On my principles I will not bend. If the foam in my surfboard becomes an impingement on others' liberty or freedom I will gladly give it up and search for an alternative.

I also cannot make decision based on a slippery slope fallacy. I can only deal with what is currently going on. Is Liberty really in danger if foam containers are no longer used? Is there any real difference in how we enjoy the world?

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 11:12:52 AM
I don't let anyone or anything decide my behavior. Not even the market. On my principles I will not bend. If the foam in my surfboard becomes an impingement on others' liberty or freedom I will gladly give it up and search for an alternative.

I also cannot make decision based on a slippery slope fallacy. I can only deal with what is currently going on. Is Liberty really in danger if foam containers are no longer used? Is there any real difference in how we enjoy the world?

I must be a paleo-libertarian, too!!!  Now I need to find out what the heck that is!!!!!

Quote from: elmerfudd on September 02, 2011, 11:09:26 AM
Not roads?  Not national defense?  Not patent and copyright enforcement?  Not safe food and drug regulations?  (Maybe that last one fits with protecting the environment, though.)

Not roads.

Not national defense. Defense is a personal matter.

Not patent or copyright enforcement.

Not safe food and drug regulations unless they protect individual liberty.

Quote from: elmerfudd on September 02, 2011, 11:06:20 AM
Would that everything would be as simple as some believe it to be.  No offense, but that's what black and white (no gray), extremist thinking produces.  Everything seems simple.  But the devil is always in the details, isn't it?

Wrong!!!
The problem as it stands is simple littering, so getting rid of one product does not effect the root problem of people littering.
I say start at the source, the offender.
Do you litter? I bet not, and neither do I, in fact it is most likely a very small percentage of people causing this problem, so lets target the real problem, litterers.

Quote from: Solar on September 02, 2011, 11:11:25 AM
Which accomplished what, the closing of the only incandescent light bulb factory in the Country, in turn laying of hundreds of workers?
Yeah, really Bright move.

They couldn't make swirly bulbs?  And where are the incandescent bulbs we're buying coming from?  Overseas?  Maybe the real culprit in the closure was foreign competition (i.e., cheap, almost slave, labor).  The incandescent bulb industry needs to employ the same lobbyist that the American non-coated paper clip industry employes. Get one of those tariffs to "level the playing field."

Quote from: elmerfudd on September 02, 2011, 10:56:23 AM
The market alwas goes with cheapest.  Make the styrofoam more expensive or ban it altogether and the market will find an alternative. Otherwise it won't.  And the swirly bulbs ARE just as bright. They just take a few seconds to warm up.  We Americans are not accustomed to waiting.  We want it NOW.  Not in five seconds.

A completely false -- and predictably shallow -- statement. The market always goes with value, defined as the product that meets a need at the lowest cost. For our national government to issue an edict telling its citizens that they will no longer have access to an excellent product -- the incandescent light bulb -- because a few in the national government have decided that the excellent product doesn't suit their goals is the basest sort of effrontery, a truly crude insult to the average American. The "individual mandate" in Obamacare is precisely the same sort of slap in the face. I have already stockpiled enough cheap incandescents to last me several lifetimes; they're in my will, bequeathed to my kids.

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 11:16:51 AM
Not roads.

Not national defense. Defense is a personal matter.

Not patent or copyright enforcement.

Not safe food and drug regulations unless they protect individual liberty.

Okay, so I'm not a paleo-libertarian after all.  For which I am thankful. 

Quote from: tbone0106 on September 02, 2011, 11:17:34 AM
A completely false -- and predictably shallow -- statement. The market always goes with value, defined as the product that meets a need at the lowest cost. For our national government to issue an edict telling its citizens that they will no longer have access to an excellent product -- the incandescent light bulb -- because a few in the national government have decided that the excellent product doesn't suit their goals is the basest sort of effrontery, a truly crude insult to the average American. The "individual mandate" in Obamacare is precisely the same sort of slap in the face. I have already stockpiled enough cheap incandescents to last me several lifetimes; they're in my will, bequeathed to my kids.

The incandescent bulb is not an excellent product. It's inefficient, fragile, and short lived.

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 11:12:52 AM
I don't let anyone or anything decide my behavior. Not even the market. On my principles I will not bend. If the foam in my surfboard becomes an impingement on others' liberty or freedom I will gladly give it up and search for an alternative.

I also cannot make decision based on a slippery slope fallacy. I can only deal with what is currently going on. Is Liberty really in danger if foam containers are no longer used? Is there any real difference in how we enjoy the world?

Claiming Liberty while allowing Gov to dictate behavior seems a bit odd, yet you just did that, you equate litter to a loss of Liberties, and back Gov intrusion.
How does that work?

Quote from: Solar on September 02, 2011, 11:17:16 AM
Wrong!!!
The problem as it stands is simple littering, so getting rid of one product does not effect the root problem of people littering.
I say start at the source, the offender.
Do you litter? I bet not, and neither do I, in fact it is most likely a very small percentage of people causing this problem, so lets target the real problem, litterers.

No, I don't litter.  I even pick up trash on my walkabouts downtown. 

But styrofoam lasts forever.  Paper and cardboard will compost.  So if we can find a product to use in place of styrofoam that will compost AND enforce litter laws, won't we be better off? The paleo libertarian thinks so and I do, too.  That may be the only thing we agree on, though.  I think roads, national defense, patent/copyright laws, and safe food and drug laws are VERY important governmental functions.  Especially national defense.

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 11:19:55 AM
The incandescent bulb is not an excellent product. It's inefficient, fragile, and short lived.

You may want to rethink that statement.
http://www.centennialbulb.org/facts.htm

Quote from: Solar on September 02, 2011, 11:21:09 AM
Claiming Liberty while allowing Gov to dictate behavior seems a bit odd, yet you just did that, you equate litter to a loss of Liberties, and back Gov intrusion.
How does that work?

Civil governance is tolerated only to protect individual liberty, to make sure that one man's liberty does impinge upon any other man's liberty. We all are free to enjoy the commons of the earth, the shared spaces, and if one man's behavior impinges on any other man's enjoyment of the commons it is civil government's duty to do something about it. Hence littering and this regulation are acceptable. And the regulation does not place undue hardship upon private business as there are numerous options.

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 11:19:55 AM
The incandescent bulb is not an excellent product. It's inefficient, fragile, and short lived.

Maybe off topic, but I recall reading somewhere that a very long lived incandescent bulb was possible.  The problem was it lasted TOO long.  So they had to shorten the life or increase the price.  They went with the first option. 

I have found that those incandescent bulbs that are made to look like white globes last a LONG time, too.  I don't know why.  Maybe I just got lucky with the ones I bought. I think I've had one in my home office for like 5 years.