Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
On the East Timor point, I will take that as you don't know what happened there.

For your edification, a US supported Indonesian invasion of East Timor killed 200,000 out of the 900,000 people who lived there in atrocities described as genocide.  Women's babies were ripped out of their stomach, men were sterilized, etc.  It went on for over 20 years through various administrations.  It ended in 1999.  You know nothing about it.

Yet you do I suppose.....

I served in East Timor in 1998 and 1999 training their security forces as a private contractor.....most of the atrocities there we committed by Muslim imported from Indonesia and targeted Christians.

Now go ahead and make a fool out of yourself some more

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 15, 2015, 09:19:07 AM
Yet you do I suppose.....

I served in East Timor in 1998 and 1999 training their security forces as a private contractor.....most of the atrocities there we committed by Muslim imported from Indonesia and targeted Christians.

Now go ahead and make a fool out of yourself some more

Yes, that's exactly what I said.  The "US-Supported invasion Of Indonesia."  Indonesia is a Muslim country.  I appreciate you making my point for me.

However, by 1998 most of the worst atrocities were already completed.

This is not really a deniable issue as US government leaders have apologized to certain quarters for this.

All of the weaponry for Indonesia came from the west and virtually all from the US.  The US supported with weapons and training throughout.  Gerald Ford gave his blessing to the invasion for Suharto in 1976, a meeting you can now read the de-classified document for.
So not sure what you are disagreeing about here.

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
On the East Timor point, I will take that as you don't know what happened there.

For your edification, a US supported Indonesian invasion of East Timor killed 200,000 out of the 900,000 people who lived there in atrocities described as genocide.  Women's babies were ripped out of their stomach, men were sterilized, etc.  It went on for over 20 years through various administrations.  It ended in 1999.  You know nothing about it.

Which has what to do with Venezuela or Cuba? See, two can play your stupid game of gotcha.

QuoteCarter was a terrible President, something I think we agree on.  However, Carter had absolutely nothing to do with beginning relations with Sadaam.  He may have if he stayed in power, but we simply don't know.  The relations with Sadaam began in 1982 and picked up speed in 1984 when Donald Rumsfeld was sent to meet with the dictator.  The US then proceeded to begin to arm Iraq, take them of the US list of sates sponsoring terrorism etc.  Iran never used chemical weapons during either the Iran-Iraq war, or their brutal treatment of the Kurds.  Iraq on the other hand did use weapons against both the Kurds and Iranians.  The Iranians repeatedly brought this issue to the UN to sanction Iraq for obvious violations of International law, and the US repeatedly vetoed the resolutions. 

Carter had everything to do with what is currently happening in the M/E, just as the Marxist is exacerbating the current problems.

QuoteYou brought the brutal treatment of Iranians against the Kurds?  A 5 year old could detect this is irrelevant.  Is it your premise that US crimes against Kurds by supporting chemical attacks against them is obviated because also treated them poorly?  If you get picked up for murder would you defend yourself on the grounds that other people to have committed murder?

At least try and make sense when you post, and learn to use the quote function if you expect me to follow your derailed train of thought.

QuoteBy the way, Iran did have a democratic government in 1953.  It was overthrown by a British-US CIA coup that installed the Shah who for 25 years killed tens of thousands of Iranian political prisoners with the most brutal types of torture you can imagine.  Had the US not overthrown Iranian democracy, there would be no Islamic state right now.

Again, thank Carter.

QuoteYou asked what would happen if the US forced Iraq to covernt to Christianity.  Why you asked this I have absolutely no clue.  I presume what would happen is the same that happened to Native Americans, which is they were extinct from the planet.

You made a statement that Iraq only understands force.  This is completely inconsistent with scholarship, CIA assessments, etc.  All of the aforementioned conclude and in fact predicted that the 2003 invasion of Iraq would create exactly what it did in Iraq.

It also exposes your ignorance of culture in the M/E. These people are living in the 7th century and follow the teachings of war and conquer.

QuoteAbstract
Iraq is suffering from depleted uranium (DU) pollution in many regions and the effects of this may harm public health through poisoning and increased incidence of various cancers and birth defects. DU is a known carcinogenic agent. About 1200 tonnes of ammunition were dropped on Iraq during the Gulf Wars of 1991 and 2003. As a result, contamination occurred in more than 350 sites in Iraq. Currently, Iraqis are facing about 140,000 cases of cancer, with 7000 to 8000 new ones registered  each year. In Baghdad cancer incidences per 100,000 population have increased, just as they have also increased in Basra. The overall incidence of breast and lung cancer , Leukaemia and Lymphoma, has doubled, even tripled. The situation in Mosul city is similar to other regions. Before the Gulf Wars Mosul had a higher rate of cancer, but the rate of cancer has further increased since the Gulf Wars.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13623699.2013.765173#.VVYTfsvjhoI

Depleted uranium and cancer in Danish Balkan veterans deployed 1992–2001
HH Storm, HO Jørgensen, AMT Kejs... - ... Journal of Cancer, 2006 - Elsevier
... 8 cases], France [5 cases], The Netherlands [2 cases], Denmark [2 cases] were linked to the use
of depleted uranium (DU) enforced ... This is a 30% increase in risk. ... by DU was used, as well as
being in agreement with studies of workers with decades of exposure to uranium. ...
Cited by 38 Related articles All 6 versions Cite SaveSaved


http://truthalerts.com/iraqi-birth-defects-worse-than-hiroshima/

Fail!!!! Correlation is not causation.
I would have torn apart their BS claims, but I got this response when I tried to read it.

QuoteSorry, you do not have access to this article.

How to gain access:
Recommend to your librarian that your institution purchase access to this publication.

I today's world, one does not have to pay for facts if they are true and not agenda driven.

QuoteThat's now56 citations.  Most recent research which I didn't even read yet, said that cancner rate in Iraq has gone up 4000% with 14..7 out of every 100 children born with birth defects.  Especailly in Fallujah where heavy use of white phorpohours and DU were found.

Your citations have yet to prove correlation.
As I stated earlier, DU may be a possible link, but one that has yet to be proven.
All you've done ie prove my point, that they only suspect it as being part of an issue.

QuoteIs it possible that DU isn't the cause?  Absolutely.  But the research seems pretty heavy that it plays a role.  Perhaps we shouldn't use till we know huh?

Uhhh, hello! That's been my point all along.

QuoteI don't care how old you are.  Someone who has seen as much as you should not be alleging I get my views from Proffessors without a shred of evidence.  I get my views from my own research.  Such childish debate tactics are right in line with you calling me a leftist, a lib or whatever slander is your choice for the moment.

Such evasive debate tactits are merely confirmation of your inability to discuss the issues.  As I said you are out of your league here.

Your core value system is based on a false premise brought forth by your previous education. This is blatantly obvious to anyone reading this.
Use some critical thinking for a change, question all you know, ask why we are where we are, how did we get here, and where and how will we fix these problems?

Doing so will give you a clearer picture of our past and present.

I love how a kid that has yet to travel the world, has the audacity to claim others are out of their league.

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 09:22:53 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I said.  The "US-Supported invasion Of Indonesia."  Indonesia is a Muslim country.  I appreciate you making my point for me.

However, by 1998 most of the worst atrocities were already completed.

This is not really a deniable issue as US government leaders have apologized to certain quarters for this.

All of the weaponry for Indonesia came from the west and virtually all from the US.  The US supported with weapons and training throughout.  Gerald Ford gave his blessing to the invasion for Suharto in 1976, a meeting you can now read the de-classified document for.
So not sure what you are disagreeing about here.

LEMME GUESS YOU GOT THAT FROM A socialist website http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/12/kiss-d19.html


Yet you keep telling us you aren;t a Lib...okay so you are a marxist am I right?

You have no clue what you are talking about.

Suharto was a no friend of the USA, and no one knows the true context of the meeting between him and Ford, Kissinger denies there was any sort of tacit approval for any 'invasion' of E TIMOR. Suharto may have bought weapons from the USA (and Europe) but so what.

Most of the atrocities (some say 20,000 killings) were committed in the 90's when an increasingly violent group of Muslim terrorists controlled by Abu Bakar Bashir (Jama'ah Islamiyah) focused on the Christian element. Bashir is hardly any part of the ANY Indonesian Govt.

Quote from: Solar on May 15, 2015, 09:41:05 AM
Which has what to do with Venezuela or Cuba? See, two can play your stupid game of gotcha.
Carter had everything to do with what is currently happening in the M/E, just as the Marxist is exacerbating the current problems.
At least try and make sense when you post, and learn to use the quote function if you expect me to follow your derailed train of thought.
Again, thank Carter.
It also exposes your ignorance of culture in the M/E. These people are living in the 7th century and follow the teachings of war and conquer.

Fail!!!! Correlation is not causation.
I would have torn apart their BS claims, but I got this response when I tried to read it.I today's world, one does not have to pay for facts if they are true and not agenda driven.
Your citations have yet to prove correlation.
As I stated earlier, DU may be a possible link, but one that has yet to be proven.
All you've done ie prove my point, that they only suspect it as being part of an issue.
Uhhh, hello! That's been my point all along.

Your core value system is based on a false premise brought forth by your previous education. This is blatantly obvious to anyone reading this.
Use some critical thinking for a change, question all you know, ask why we are where we are, how did we get here, and where and how will we fix these problems?

Doing so will give you a clearer picture of our past and present.

I love how a kid that has yet to travel the world, has the audacity to claim others are out of their league.

You didn't respond to one thing that I wrote.  Reach through each of your responses to my quotations.  Not one of them has any relation to what I said.

When you get isolated on a single point you run all over gods creation.  For example, when I say the 1953 Iranian coup lead to the Iranian revolution you say exactly "Carters fault."
What the fuck are you talking about?   What does that have to do with Carter?  Was he President in 1953?

I say perhaps we should hold off on using DU because of the weight of evidence suggesting its harmful.  You say "Exactly my point."  No, that wasn't your point.  Your point was that wars tough so to bad.  What are you saying?

You say I haven't travelled the world.  How do you know that?  How old am I?  Have you travelled to Iraq? Iran? Syria? El Salvador?  North Dakota?  Have you ever made a comment about a place you didn't travel too?  Does travelling to a country immediately deliver you everything there is to know about it?
You make the claim that all muslims are living in the 7th century.  Not the way the CIA, or Mossad sees it, or most of scholarship.

DO some Muslims live in the 7th century?  Yeah absolutely.  Certainly not the ones living in New York.  Or the vast majority of muslims in the middle east who hate ISIS and salafi teaching
Who funded such fundamelist teachings?  Well mainly Saudi Arabia as a way to buffer the Soviets in the late 1970s. 
You are a schtick.  A charade.  Nothing you say has any bearing on what I wrote in any degree.  You are completely overmatched. 
My education was self-taught.  In college I studied data techniques.  I did not study politics nor did any Professor I had in any way shape my views.  My views fall all over the political spectrum.
You were annihilated in this debate and I don't say that in a self-congratuarloy way.  Its just you are incapable of an intelligent discussion and literally cant follow the logic of a point.  You have gone back on virtually everything you said.  I hope you are not a relfection of what the tea party actually thinks because as far as I can tell you I cant detect anything you know outside of regurgitating gibberish unrelated to any point discussed.

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 10:00:43 AM
You didn't respond to one thing that I wrote.  Reach through each of your responses to my quotations.  Not one of them has any relation to what I said.

When you get isolated on a single point you run all over gods creation.  For example, when I say the 1953 Iranian coup lead to the Iranian revolution you say exactly "Carters fault."
What the fuck are you talking about?   What does that have to do with Carter?  Was he President in 1953?

I say perhaps we should hold off on using DU because of the weight of evidence suggesting its harmful.  You say "Exactly my point."  No, that wasn't your point.  Your point was that wars tough so to bad.  What are you saying?

You say I haven't travelled the world.  How do you know that?  How old am I?  Have you travelled to Iraq? Iran? Syria? El Salvador?  North Dakota?  Have you ever made a comment about a place you didn't travel too?  Does travelling to a country immediately deliver you everything there is to know about it?
You make the claim that all muslims are living in the 7th century.  Not the way the CIA, or Mossad sees it, or most of scholarship.

DO some Muslims live in the 7th century?  Yeah absolutely.  Certainly not the ones living in New York.  Or the vast majority of muslims in the middle east who hate ISIS and salafi teaching
Who funded such fundamelist teachings?  Well mainly Saudi Arabia as a way to buffer the Soviets in the late 1970s. 
You are a schtick.  A charade.  Nothing you say has any bearing on what I wrote in any degree.  You are completely overmatched. 
My education was self-taught.  In college I studied data techniques.  I did not study politics nor did any Professor I had in any way shape my views.  My views fall all over the political spectrum.
You were annihilated in this debate and I don't say that in a self-congratuarloy way.  Its just you are incapable of an intelligent discussion and literally cant follow the logic of a point.  You have gone back on virtually everything you said.  I hope you are not a relfection of what the tea party actually thinks because as far as I can tell you I cant detect anything you know outside of regurgitating gibberish unrelated to any point discussed.

What do you want to discuss, Iran or E Timor...what debate? Everything you are blabbering about is some Leftist talking point, then you get caught quoting something from the socialist web site I posted a link to.

Your cred is on the skids bucko.

You are aware that Stalin grabbed most of Iran after WW2...right? You are aware the KGB put some Puppet on the Peacock throne in Terhan right? You are aware that this was a pretext for Russian to grab control of the Straits of Hormuz and oil production in the ME right....sure we coup'd Iran, we set up the Shah who friendly to US interests and overrulled the idiotic 14th centruy Sharia law Mullah's and tried to move his country forward, then of course Russian made as many problems as possible with the Iranian Tuedah party (communists) the Religious Fanatics in their country
threw in with the Tuedah party and overthrew the Shah....and the reign of terror the instituted was ten times as worse as anything the Shah ever thought about doing.

And yeah Jimmy Carter us to blame, he threw the Shah under the bus over "human rights Violations" that was a real joke, the Mullah's started lining people up at the firing squad by the dozens before he touched down in L.A.

>newbie

Hey, sonny. Aside from hearing it from someone who WAS there, what part about getting your tail whipped do you fail to understand here?

Is there ANYTHING you actually like about America? Are you even capable of expressing it, without dragging in what you obviously hate?

Rise to my challenge.

Quote from: quiller on May 15, 2015, 10:12:47 AM
>newbie

Hey, sonny. Aside from hearing it from someone who WAS there, what part about getting your tail whipped do you fail to understand here?

Is there ANYTHING you actually like about America? Are you even capable of expressing it, without dragging in what you obviously hate?

Rise to my challenge.

the petson was there in 1998 essentially after the invasion and he vacked up what i said.  Indonesia invaded east timor with us blessing and weapons.  Thus yes indonesian muslims did the killing against east timorese christians.  The us didnt kill one oerson directly but through indonesia.

I like anerican culture.  American people.  The fact that we are the freest country on earth.  American charitable nature.  I like thar we beat the crap out of facists. I dont like when we comitt crimes.

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 15, 2015, 10:11:22 AM
What do you want to discuss, Iran or E Timor...what debate? Everything you are blabbering about is some Leftist talking point, then you get caught quoting something from the socialist web site I posted a link to.

Your cred is on the skids bucko.

You are aware that Stalin grabbed most of Iran after WW2...right? You are aware the KGB put some Puppet on the Peacock throne in Terhan right? You are aware that this was a pretext for Russian to grab control of the Straits of Hormuz and oil production in the ME right....sure we coup'd Iran, we set up the Shah who friendly to US interests and overrulled the idiotic 14th centruy Sharia law Mullah's and tried to move his country forward, then of course Russian made as many problems as possible with the Iranian Tuedah party (communists) the Religious Fanatics in their country
threw in with the Tuedah party and overthrew the Shah....and the reign of terror the instituted was ten times as worse as anything the Shah ever thought about doing.

And yeah Jimmy Carter us to blame, he threw the Shah under the bus over "human rights Violations" that was a real joke, the Mullah's started lining people up at the firing squad by the dozens before he touched down in L.A.

Lets start with iran.

Mossadeq, who we overthrow rejected russian deals on oil, etc.  He was a mwmber of the non alligned movement.  The overwhelming base of his party were secular nationalists.  He was at the time in an oil sharing agreement with england.  We overthrew him to stop him from trying to nationalize iranian oil.  The tudeh hated him for refusing the russian deal.  He was no communist.

The shah wrote in his memoirs that he was embarassed by carters support.  Carter praised him in speeches up until he was overthrown and carter considered the shah a staple of mideast policy.

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 10:27:41 AM
Lets start with iran.

Mossadeq, who we overthrow rejected russian deals on oil, etc.  He was a mwmber of the non alligned movement.  The overwhelming base of his party were secular nationalists.  He was at the time in an oil sharing agreement with england.  We overthrew him to stop him from trying to nationalize iranian oil.  The tudeh hated him for refusing the russian deal.  He was no communist.

The shah wrote in his memoirs that he was embarassed by carters support.  Carter praised him in speeches up until he was overthrown and carter considered the shah a staple of mideast policy.

He was no communist....yet he was trying to Nationalize Oil.....your own words   

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 15, 2015, 10:33:06 AM

He was no communist....yet he was trying to Nationalize Oil.....your own words   

he wanted iranians to be in control of iranian oil but was willing to share orifits with england.  England wanted control.

The communist party hated him and as i said he rebuffed russian oil deals. He openly praised american stly governance.  The nationakists in iran wanted to natioanlize oil not the communists.

Can you think of counties with nationalized oil now that arent communists?  Answer yes.

Read the declassified record on this snd those who carried out the coup openly labeled him anti communist.

You dont know what your saying.

Quote from: steve folkster on May 14, 2015, 01:46:55 PM
I made no such statements.

I cited 50 articles, the US air force, and veterans of war, among others, as evidence that depleted uranium causes cancer and reproductive health issues.

I am still awaiting a response from some on those issues.

SO far I got a pitcher of a baseball player sliding into base and requests for evidence.

Here is more:
"When DU explodes, it produces a very fine uranium dust. When children play near wrecked tanks, they can absorb this dust through their skin, their mouths and their airways. A 2002 study at the University of Bremen in northern Germany found that chromosomal changes had occurred in Gulf war veterans who had come into contact with uranium ammunition."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/researchers-studying-high-rates-of-cancer-and-birth-defects-in-iraq-a-873225.html

SInce you refuse to read the new 50 soruced compilation study Ill go back further.

Now go ahead and be quick to defend what could have been harm to US troops for some reason I don't know.

Shouldn't we err on the side of caution here?

Does Kuwait have the same problem? How many of this type of munitions was used in decimating the Iraqi forces in gulf war 1? How many of our troops were exposed to the burned out tanks and equipment destroyed with this type of munitions?  Is this a medical issue with the VA that treats the vets from Gulf war 1? Why is it isolated to Iraq? Could it be from the effects of damaged WMD that we hit in our bombing campaigns in Iraq? Remember our sensors detected low level WMD as we came into the Iraqi cities in Gulf war 2! How can anyone just point to depleted uranium as the cause?

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 10:38:52 AM
he wanted iranians to be in control of iranian oil but was willing to share orifits with england.  England wanted control.

The communist party hated him and as i said he rebuffed russian oil deals. He openly praised american stly governance.  The nationakists in iran wanted to natioanlize oil not the communists.

Can you think of counties with nationalized oil now that arent communists?  Answer yes.

Read the declassified record on this snd those who carried out the coup openly labeled him anti communist.

You dont know what your saying

Yeah I don;t know what I'm saying and then you come up with this BS in your original post about how he was in business with the Brits.....why would Britain and the US want Mossadeq out of the way if that was true?

He wanted to limit British oil, that was just the first step.... likely that means seize all the assets and machinery and Nationalize the oil industry and turn around and go into business with the Soviets I beleive the Iranian Parliment took steps to nationalize the oil and thus the stage was set to throw the Brits out....doesn't that make more sense to you? Especially in light of the fact that Russians and Iranians have been business partners and land owners since the days of the Tzars.

As I said and this is a fact, Stalin seized huge chunks of Iran after ww2, Stalin stated many times he would control Iran and he wanted the straits of Hormuz, that was a stated KGB goal, IRANIAN OIL was the "property" of Russia his best shot was through mOSSADEQ..... Both the US and Britain knew this....The Shah confirmed this as well, are you aware that the Shah put US AIr Force missle systems and radar detection sites in his country? AND sent lots and lots of his people to the US in the 1960's and 70's not just in military training but colleges as well, he wanted them to be on par with the rest of Europe and the modern world, he knew Russia's goal and he knew the continual problems the KGB was creating for him. 

My Older Brother was actually stationed in Northern Iran in the 1960's.

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 15, 2015, 11:01:02 AM
Yeah I don;t know what I'm saying and then you come up with this BS in your original post about how he was in business with the Brits.....why would Britain and the US want Mossadeq out of the way if that was true?

He wanted to limit British oil, that was just the first step.... likely that means seize all the assets and machinery and Nationalize the oil industry and turn around and go into business with the Soviets I beleive the Iranian Parliment took steps to nationalize the oil and thus the stage was set to throw the Brits out....doesn't that make more sense to you? Especially in light of the fact that Russians and Iranians have been business partners and land owners since the days of the Tzars.

As I said and this is a fact, Stalin seized huge chunks of Iran after ww2, Stalin stated many times he would control Iran and he wanted the straits of Hormuz, that was a stated KGB goal, IRANIAN OIL was the "property" of Russia his best shot was through mOSSADEQ..... Both the US and Britain knew this....The Shah confirmed this as well, are you aware that the Shah put US AIr Force missle systems and radar detection sites in his country? AND sent lots and lots of his people to the US in the 1960's and 70's not just in military training but colleges as well, he wanted them to be on par with the rest of Europe and the modern world, he knew Russia's goal and he knew the continual problems the KGB was creating for him. 

My Older Brother was actually stationed in Northern Iran in the 1960's.

We have a day to day declassified record on this.  Read it.  Britisn wanted to maintain control and the iranian people voted him to nationalize their own resource.  There were no communist issues in any of their discussions.  Try again.  You are atguing with people who carried out the policy not me.

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 11:04:01 AM
We have a day to day declassified record on this.  Read it.  Britisn wanted to maintain control and the iranian people voted him to nationalize their own resource.  There were no communist issues in any of their discussions.  Try again.  You are atguing with people who carried out the policy not me.

I'm arguing with your speculated version of events which ignores historical fact of Russia seizing huge partitions of Iran.
Viewed in that context what LOGICALLY do you think was the end game for Stalin/Soviets regarding Iran and its oil resources?

And you are just plain wrong about communist influences, the Tuedah Party threw their support behind Mossadeq over nationalism