Quote from: Solar on October 16, 2010, 07:53:48 PM
But that does not answer the question, you stated, "But working for the reduction of racism in the places it still exists neither "keeps the stigma alive" nor "breeds negativity" but rather encourages social harmony and moves toward a more positive world." So give an example of working to reduce racism.

Okay. Reducing racism as a facet of human attitude is pretty difficult because it lives inside people's heads and only reveals itself through their actions. Racism as an attitude will eventually be taken down to a minimum and held there through teaching that all people are inherently alike, not just in their essential physiology but in their instinctive responses to external stimuli and, almost universally, in their basic social desires too. Long before that happens society will take steps - aggressive steps if necessary - to eliminate racism as a public practice.. Affirmative action is such a program. It ensures that employers cannot capriciously discriminate against minorities (black, specifically, in this case) in their hiring practices, by compelling their labor force to closely resemble, in demographic microcosm, the greater local society, or offer a compelling, legally acceptable reason why this should not be so. Thus, hypothetically, a software company may be exempt from hiring black programmers (programming being a skilled position) in proportion to the number of blacks in the local community as long as it can demonstrate there are not enough black programmers in the community itself. (Simple in concept, not always so simple in practice since the onus is on the company.) The problem with affirmative action is that it not only fails to cure racist attitudes, it often inflames them, with racists (as well as non-racists) complaining that blacks are getting a "free ride" and "screwing white people out of jobs." Well, free ride it may be (until the black hire proves himself incompetent at the job he was hired for), but "screwing white people out of jobs" is a dead racist giveaway: white people are no more guaranteed access to jobs than black people are - however white racists will almost always choose to hire a white over a black person which "screws black people out of jobs."

So affirmative action programs meet your criteria for at least functionally reducing acts of public racism. Another would be something we've wrangled over in the past - criminalizing the right of refusing service based on race. There is simply no rational justification supporting a service provider's general right to refuse service (based on a customer's race, or religion, or sexuality) which outweighs society's general need and right to maintain peace and order. There may actually be rare compelling exceptions to that rule, but I'm at a loss for one at the moment.

Quote from: Cryptic Bert on October 16, 2010, 08:59:27 PM
Yeah, I definitely hear crickets...

Crickets are the only thing you CAN hear when you keep your head up your ass, Bert. ;-)

Quote from: Darwinist on October 16, 2010, 07:07:48 PM
You're a shmuck, Dan, and obviously a complete ignoramus when it comes to the subject of evolution by natural selection (or any of its other mechanisms), otherwise you would have never posted such a wooden-headed remark even in jest.

And you're a humorless leftist dweeb who is incapable of laughing at himself. So we'll all do it for you.

Quote from: Darwinist on October 16, 2010, 07:07:48 PM
There you go, a knuckle-dragging fundie asshat who believes cold-blooded murder could ever please Jesus.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said it would please Jesus. I said it would please me. And if you value the life of baby killers so much then you can go fuck yourself.

Quote from: Darwinist on October 16, 2010, 07:38:23 PM
Not to mention having it literally pounded into their heads by innumerable cops, southern hayseeds, and northern skinheads and the various political, social, and religious kith and kin of the aforementioned.

Some of the biggest bigots I've ever met in my life were black. And look at the violent black bigotry in African countries like Rwanda and Sudan and South Africa sondont talk to me like bigotry is some exclusively white invention.

Quote from: Darwinist on October 16, 2010, 09:04:46 PM
Crickets are the only thing you CAN hear when you keep your head up your ass, Bert. ;-)

It's creepy that you spend so much time thinking about Bert's ass. :o

Quote from: Darwinist on October 16, 2010, 07:18:27 PM
Then almost by this self-assigned definition you must hate the Birthers, am I right? Because they all live and die by race-baiting over Obama.

I hate the smear tactic of labling someone who questions any POTUS' candidates qualifications and when the questions are not fully answered and such a cadidate becomes POTUS then I hate the fact that anyone can get away with what appears to bew a massive fraud!

With all the illegal aliens flooding into this country from the failed Narco-state of Mexico and all of the new identities created giving them the appearence of being US citizens, is it inconceivable that one day in the future we might not have a candidate for POTUS who may not have actually been born in this country?  Would it be "racist" to want to find out if such a person is qualified.

Bear in mind that the Founders of our nation wanted to ensure that there would never be a time where a foreign born President could ever be elected.  They feared that such a person might have alligances to others in foreign nations and not to those over whom he might try to dictate!

I am a Constitutionalist and I respect the rationale of those great men who created our Constitution and I have repeatedly taken an oath to protect, preserve and defend our Constitution, throughout my life!  That oath is sacred to me and more than just a formality of being sworn in to an office!

Obama has yet to proove anything about these allegation which were first raised by the Clinton campaign, during the primary.  Just because John McCain decided that he would make them off limits did not mean he spoke for anyone other than his own damn self!

I don't know if Obama is or is not a natural born citizen.  He's fought it every inch of the way and that makes me suspicious!  They must be an accounting and their will be...trust me!

Quote from: Darwinist on October 16, 2010, 09:01:04 PM
Okay. Reducing racism as a facet of human attitude is pretty difficult because it lives inside people's heads and only reveals itself through their actions. Racism as an attitude will eventually be taken down to a minimum and held there through teaching that all people are inherently alike, not just in their essential physiology but in their instinctive responses to external stimuli and, almost universally, in their basic social desires too.

So you want to somehow remove human nature, the natural defense response we all have?
You do realize that when bad things happen in our lives, like learning fire is hot, or glass can cut if not respected, or when someone dressed a certain way reflects their personality.
These are things we learn throughout life that keeps us safe, but using your logic, we are somehow supposed to unlearn them.

QuoteLong before that happens society will take steps - aggressive steps if necessary - to eliminate racism as a public practice.. Affirmative action is such a program. It ensures that employers cannot capriciously discriminate against minorities (black, specifically, in this case) in their hiring practices, by compelling their labor force to closely resemble, in demographic microcosm, the greater local society, or offer a compelling, legally acceptable reason why this should not be so.

Oh goody, more laws and regulations, one more bureaucracy, more people to answer to, more paper work to fill out, more employees to hire as a police force to watch over the private sector.

QuoteThus, hypothetically, a software company may be exempt from hiring black programmers (programming being a skilled position) in proportion to the number of blacks in the local community as long as it can demonstrate there are not enough black programmers in the community itself. (Simple in concept, not always so simple in practice since the onus is on the company.) The problem with affirmative action is that it not only fails to cure racist attitudes, it often inflames them, with racists (as well as non-racists) complaining that blacks are getting a "free ride" and "screwing white people out of jobs." Well, free ride it may be (until the black hire proves himself incompetent at the job he was hired for), but "screwing white people out of jobs" is a dead racist giveaway:

This is the answer I expected, you can't force something that isn't ready to fit, if you do, you only make the situation worse.

Quotewhite people are no more guaranteed access to jobs than black people are - however white racists will almost always choose to hire a white over a black person which "screws black people out of jobs."

And this is different from a black racist not wanting to hire Whites?
Blacks have the Exact same opportunity as do you and I when it comes to opening a business, there is no reason they can't open a business right in their own community and hire specifically Blacks, and I doubt you would hear Whites crying racism.

Quote
So affirmative action programs meet your criteria for at least functionally reducing acts of public racism.

-
But it meets no criteria whatsoever, as you yourself stated, it can and will build more resentment, in turn exacerbating racism.

QuoteAnother would be something we've wrangled over in the past -criminalizing the right of refusing service based on race. There is simply no rational justification supporting a service provider's general right to refuse service (based on a customer's race, or religion, or sexuality) which outweighs society's general need and right to maintain peace and order. There may actually be rare compelling exceptions to that rule, but I'm at a loss for one at the moment.

So now you advocate Fascism?
Are you also ready to pass laws of association? Whereby I have to prove that I have mingled with x amount of black people per week?

He would rather force CHANGE on people; failing to recognize that this is doomed to fail because of the bitter, deep seething resentment held by anyone who is forced to do anything!

People generally change their own opinions of others based upon the actions the other people take.  If someone is prospering and is not harming you in any way, most people tend to admire such a person and want to associate themselves such a person, regardless of what they look like on the outside.  Positives actually attract positives!

However, anyone who perceives another person or group as being a threat to them or their loved ones is perceived as an advesary, if not an enemy!  Perception is REALITY!  If one gives others the perception that they are hostile towards them and mean them harm, then negatives actually attract negatives and one will reap what he/she sews!

Quote from: Dan on October 17, 2010, 02:06:15 AMAnd you're a humorless leftist dweeb who is incapable of laughing at himself. So we'll all do it for you.

In fact I'm self-effacing away from a computer, poking fun at myself a lot. I don't post at message boards to laugh at myself; I post concerning issues I consider serious, and I post in a serious vein as befits serious issues. Maybe you and others think being at a message board is all masturbatory fun and games; good for you. But others have a different take; some of us think the issues facing our country are worthy of sober concern and analysis. If you and your crew of jokesters want to laugh at that attitude, go right ahead.

Quote from: Dan on October 17, 2010, 02:09:08 AMStop putting words in my mouth. I never said it would please Jesus.

Then you are no Christian, and indeed cannot be as long as you celebrate murder.

QuoteI said it would please me. And if you value the life of baby killers so much then you can go fuck yourself.

Yes, of course. But let me ask you something: do you have the courage to actually kill an abortion provider yourself, or will you always remain a sniveling little coward who watches others act on behalf of your beliefs, and thanks God someone has the courage you lack?

Hey Darwinist, you say that you come here to talk about big ideas. Lol. Seriously, how empty does your life have to be that you, a leftist, needs to come to a political forum for conservatives and be so openly confrontational. You aren't here to exchange ideas, learn or educate. You're just here to pick fights. How incredibly empty your life must be. How utterly devoid of any competing interests your life must be. No woman (or man, not judging). No kids. No friends. No hobbies. I'll bet you don't even have a pet. All you have is your bigotry and impotent rage and you have to vent that at anonymous people on a posting board. How sad. I honestly pity you......until you open your damned mouth and act like a jackass.

Quote from: Dan on October 17, 2010, 02:13:18 AM
Some of the biggest bigots I've ever met in my life were black.

Me too. But can you not see that attitude - at least for some of them - is justifiable in light of actual historical events? Is it natural for people who have been institutionally oppressed and capriciously brutalized by those in authority, to embrace their oppressors and brutalizers with open arms and generous forgiveness - or is it more natural for them to grow hardened in resentment, and to come to generalize their view their oppressors with the exact same prejudice with which their oppressors view them generally?

Keep in mind, if you can, Dan, that the great race riots of the 60s and early 70s, and the contentious civil rights marches and sit-ins and acts of civil disobedience where non-resisting blacks were beaten (sometimes to death) by police, and set-upon with police dogs, and tear-gassed and fire-hosed, may not be part of the warp and weft of the experiences of the current generation of blacks, but those things are certainly part of the direct experience of their parents and grandparents - and, despite appearances to the contrary, parents and grandparents still convey information about their lives to their children, information that shapes perceptions and attitudes. How likely are you to be kindly disposed toward white people if it was a white cop who beat your uncle into that wheelchair he'll spend the rest of his life in, or a bunch of white rednecks who burned down the home your mother grew up in and lynched your grandfather? Can you possibly see how such things might create a little resentment, even hatred? And can you possibly see the stories of these events, passed to children and grandchildren, might foster indirect but no less virulent resentments and hatreds? And if you can see any of these things, and knowing that racism still results in occasional deaths and maimings of blacks around this country, and that membership in Aryan organizations is on the rise, how then can you possibly hope to suggest that blacks have no reason to hang on to some worry?

QuoteAnd look at the violent black bigotry in African countries like Rwanda and Sudan and South Africa sondont talk to me like bigotry is some exclusively white invention.

Bigotry is a human condition. Bear in mind the vast majority of bigotry in Africa is black-on-black, with the divisions ignited along tribal lines rather than drawn according to skin color.

But of course blacks in Africa don't like whites. Have you ever looked at the history of white colonialism in Africa?? Not only colonial landowners but colonial governments treated black tribesmen like so many pieces of cordwood; their lives were not just insignificant they were utterly without value. And so they were cavalierly worked to death, and maimed and killed brutally - object lessons to their fellows against rebellion and even dissent. (Keep in mind, as a historical parallel, that it was the white European who taught the American Indian the brutality of scalping, not the other way around.) Black Africans have a lot of historical reason not to view whites with anything but suspicion and anger.

Quote from: Dan on October 17, 2010, 02:14:34 AM
It's creepy that you spend so much time thinking about Bert's ass. :o

It's creepier that you spend so much time paying attention to it.

Quote from: Dan on October 17, 2010, 09:16:16 AM
Hey Darwinist, you say that you come here to talk about big ideas. Lol. Seriously, how empty does your life have to be that you, a leftist, needs to come to a political forum for conservatives and be so openly confrontational. You aren't here to exchange ideas, learn or educate. You're just here to pick fights. How incredibly empty your life must be. How utterly devoid of any competing interests your life must be. No woman (or man, not judging). No kids. No friends. No hobbies. I'll bet you don't even have a pet. All you have is your bigotry and impotent rage and you have to vent that at anonymous people on a posting board. How sad. I honestly pity you......until you open your damned mouth and act like a jackass.

There isn't a small animal within ten miles of the alley where he keeps his refrigerator-crate. Ricky strangled them all.