I want to throw something out there and ask what people think particularly Solar since I find him to very well informed.  At another board where the vote is split about 50-50 between Trump and Cruz, the Trump supporters keep saying that if Trump were to drop out that his votes would not go to Cruz because Trump supporters won't vote for Cruz and that he's not electable nationally. The establishment would then throw their support to Jeb or Rubio both of whom can easily be controlled and whatever Democrat support Trump has would be also do the same.

Frankly I thought Trump was his usual buffoon-like self with his stupid faces and shallow comments.

What do you think?

I know this is anecdotal, however the Luntz focus group saw Cruz as the clear winner. I would not have used the "NYC city values" phrase, but I think most people understood exactly what he was saying.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 14, 2016, 09:58:43 PM
He did great. That's Not a surprise. Trump was prepared and did awesome. So did Rubio and Christie. Jebber s has a nice tie.
We shouldn't bother to look at the debates to see if Trump is better than Cruz or vice versa. It's happening rather slowly. Cruz did what he needed to do and that won't become apparent for a few months though we will get a glimpse of it in Iowa.

From a substance POV, Trump flopped, the only time he gave any specifics of substance was when he talked about China and taxes/tariffs, then stupidly tried to pass it off as punishing the Chinese, but anyone with half a brain knows Govts never pay taxes, ever, the end purchaser picks up that tab.
I think he'll be trashed for that one, and make people question the rest of his policies, that he's yet to go into detail over yet.

Quote from: Dubinsky on January 15, 2016, 04:26:25 AM
I want to throw something out there and ask what people think particularly Solar since I find him to very well informed.  At another board where the vote is split about 50-50 between Trump and Cruz, the Trump supporters keep saying that if Trump were to drop out that his votes would not go to Cruz because Trump supporters won't vote for Cruz and that he's not electable nationally. The establishment would then throw their support to Jeb or Rubio both of whom can easily be controlled and whatever Democrat support Trump has would be also do the same.

Frankly I thought Trump was his usual buffoon-like self with his stupid faces and shallow comments.

What do you think?

He's a buzzsaw against the Dems.  That's all I care about right now.  So's Cruz, but he stays in a clearer-thinking and speaking mode.  That's what I'll vote for in the primary. 

Quote from: kit saginaw on January 14, 2016, 08:54:41 PM
Ted took it... the win.

Everybody was good in what is probably the best debate so far.  But Cruz won relatively easily. 

Great job by the mods to just ask the question and back-away...  The result was a myriad of snappy one-liners, and a plethora of diatribes against obama, clinton's wife, and the dems. 

The audience was exceptional, infusing the right decorum at the right juncture.

Kasich, Bush, and Trump came-off as the purveyors of the most spin and generalizations, which I'd label as 'weak' juxtaposed to Cruz being the strongest.

Good summary, spot on.
I wonder how that New York moment played beyond the bubble, when Buttaroma interjected herself into the debate, like a Candy Crowley moment?
What I saw was Ted being held to a different standard on what he said, Hell, we all know exactly what he meant by NY morals, had he said Calif morals, I'd gave agreed. The nation is sick of leftists hubs seething with PC and choking on it.
Why hasn't Trump's values come up yet? We all know the ones, the ones that keep changing in a man nearly 70 years old.
I'm in my 60s and still hold the exact same values I held as a child.

I believe on substance Cruz stole the night when he mentioned Flat Tax, and destroying the IRS, that got the biggest audience reaction of the night, and by it's volume, you could tell it crossed party lines.
By party lines, I mean libs in the Trump camp

There was a great radio-commercial on WDFN sports where a disembodied voice kept interjecting New York.  EL AY. as the announcer tried to promote middle of the country values and concerns.

That's what I thought of when I first heard of 'New York values'.  It has nothing to do with rebuilding after 9/11.  That is an American-value reaction, which Trump stumbled over last night.

Cruz is just exemplifying what zillions of Americans feel  on any given day.   We're tired of being hit over the head with New York and Los Angeles.  Or as I say: Madison Avenue and Hollywood.

Quote from: Dubinsky on January 15, 2016, 04:26:25 AM
I want to throw something out there and ask what people think particularly Solar since I find him to very well informed.  At another board where the vote is split about 50-50 between Trump and Cruz, the Trump supporters keep saying that if Trump were to drop out that his votes would not go to Cruz because Trump supporters won't vote for Cruz and that he's not electable nationally. The establishment would then throw their support to Jeb or Rubio both of whom can easily be controlled and whatever Democrat support Trump has would be also do the same.

Frankly I thought Trump was his usual buffoon-like self with his stupid faces and shallow comments.

What do you think?

This board you speak of, are the majority of these Trumpettes new to the forum?
I only say that to expose a phenomenon I've noticed since Christmas when a sudden influx of libs picked up the Trump torch, while at the very same moment, Conservatives in his camp went silent.

To your question. They are correct to a point, which is moot anyway. From what I've seen these Libs will never register (R) anyway, so come New Hampshire they'll just stay home and Cruz will slaughter Trump.
Take a moment and question these kids, because that's what they are, kids interested in politics for the first time since blindly voting in a Marxist.
They see Trump as a go between in the Dim/R debacle, they believe rhetoric as if Trump has the power to force Congress to send him only Bills, Trump the God commands, these people are by all descriptions, LIV Libs.
Keep pressing the what "if" Trump doesn't win query, create doubt, these are kids, they run solely on emotion, and dout is a powerful weapon in your arsenal.

Quote from: Solar on January 15, 2016, 05:28:38 AM
This board you speak of, are the majority of these Trumpettes new to the forum?
I only say that to expose a phenomenon I've noticed since Christmas when a sudden influx of libs picked up the Trump torch, while at the very same moment, Conservatives in his camp went silent.

To your question. They are correct to a point, which is moot anyway. From what I've seen these Libs will never register (R) anyway, so come New Hampshire they'll just stay home and Cruz will slaughter Trump.
Take a moment and question these kids, because that's what they are, kids interested in politics for the first time since blindly voting in a Marxist.
They see Trump as a go between in the Dim/R debacle, they believe rhetoric as if Trump has the power to force Congress to send him only Bills, Trump the God commands, these people are by all descriptions, LIV Libs.
Keep pressing the what "if" Trump doesn't win query, create doubt, these are kids, they run solely on emotion, and dout is a powerful weapon in your arsenal.

Actually some of them are people that I believe you may know and have posted with perhaps years ago and there are at least two of them here that I know of although neither of the two here fit the description I gave.  Truth be told I had two of them on my ass claiming my posts were two long (reading comprehension I suppose isn't their strong point) but it had more to do with me being supportive of Cruz than length.

I got so fed up with them that I decided to leave (for now) and told them my vindication will come when Cruz is the nominee and then President.  There's a few that support Cruz but like myself when they say that they get ignored or mocked.

In fact I copied and pasted some comments from here and said they were from another board (didn't name it) and I got either silence or the same one-liner about Trump can't be bought and we don't need Cruz because we have had enough lawyers.

I really wish a few here would join there and get the ball rolling for Cruz.  Clearly the knowledgeable ones here would clean their clocks better than I can.

I had one joker tell me that Real Clear Politics is just a lib site merely because it's headquartered in Chicago.  Now I'm not a big poll fan but seriously "their based in Chicago" so it can't be considered?  The polls are a composite or aggregate of multiple polls.The reality was it was a poll showing that only Cruz beats Hillary but Hillary trounces Trump.

Everyone is entitled to their view so I figured rather than argue with facts that they ignore I'd leave for now instead of losing my temper and getting banned.

The biggest reason the majority of them keep repeating is Trump is the best because he can't be bought.  When you overlook that and start giving facts (hence my so-called long posts) you get a sarcastic or stupid personal attack.

Ignorance is bliss.


P.S. They also feel Trump won last night.  Now all I saw was Trump being Trump.  Shallow replies, no details, face making, eye-rolls, shoulder shrugging and when he did attempt a reply you could sense if he was pushed further for detail he'd look like a fool.  The only question he did seem to understand was when he talked about Corporate Inversion.


It's ironic too that we had a clown like Obama promise hope and change and look what we got. Now we have Trump basically saying the same thing and competency wise when it comes to being President he probably knows even less about the rigors of being President than Obama did coming into office. 

I'll admit that if push came to shove and my only choices were Trump or Hillary I'd like vote for Trump because I can't tell you how much I despise Hillary but thankfully I don't think it will come to that.

The guy is P.T Barnum reincarnated.

P.P.S.  Did anyone catch this because Trump always defers to him.  Trump always says just ask Carl Ichan.  I know who he is but not much about his politics. 

Quote from: Dubinsky on January 15, 2016, 05:57:31 AM
Actually some of them are people that I believe you may know and have posted with perhaps years ago and there are at least two of them here that I know of although neither of the two here fit the description I gave.  Truth be told I had two of them on my ass claiming my posts were two long (reading comprehension I suppose isn't their strong point) but it had more to do with me being supportive of Cruz than length.

I got so fed up with them that I decided to leave (for now) and told them my vindication will come when Cruz is the nominee and then President.  There's a few that support Cruz but like myself when they say that they get ignored or mocked.

In fact I copied and pasted some comments from here and said they were from another board (didn't name it) and I got either silence or the same one-liner about Trump can't be bought and we don't need Cruz because we have had enough lawyers.

I really wish a few here would join there and get the ball rolling for Cruz.  Clearly the knowledgeable ones here would clean their clocks better than I can.

I had one joker tell me that Real Clear Politics is just a lib site merely because it's headquartered in Chicago.  Now I'm not a big poll fan but seriously "their based in Chicago" so it can't be considered?  The polls are a composite or aggregate of multiple polls.The reality was it was a poll showing that only Cruz beats Hillary but Hillary trounces Trump.

Everyone is entitled to their view so I figured rather than argue with facts that they ignore I'd leave for now instead of losing my temper and getting banned.

The biggest reason the majority of them keep repeating is Trump is the best because he can't be bought.  When you overlook that and start giving facts (hence my so-called long posts) you get sarcastic and stupid personal attack.

Ignorance is bliss.


P.S. They also feel Trump won last night.  Now all I saw was Trump being Trump.  Shallow replies, no details, face making, eye-rolls, shoulder shrugging and when he did attempt a reply you could sense if he was pushed further for detail he'd look like a fool.  The only question he did seem to understand was when he talked about Corporate Inversion.


It's ironic too that we had a clown like Obama promise hope and change and look what we got. Now we have Trump basically saying the same thing and competency wise when it comes to being President he probably knows even less about the rigors of being President.than Obama did coming into office. 

I'll admit that if push came to shove and my only choices were Trump or Hillary I'd like vote for Trump because I can't tell you how much I despise Hillary but thankfully I don't think it will come to that.

Maybe you can make this post out to be your own.
I'm on Discuss debating one of the very same people you describe over Rand Paul losing support because he aligned with the enemy.
After several back and forth, it finally dawned on me why I was failing to get through to him. The post is self explanatory.

"conservativepoliticalforum.com 

You really don't get it do you?
I'm a Conservative, that means living by a set of core values, something today's generation lacks severely.
In my 60 plus years I have lived by a moral code, values.
They are the same ones I had as a child and have never changed.
I see where the disconnect is and understand why you are unable to grasp my point.
My generation grew up holding a man to his word. Your word is your worth, not your bank account, but your integrity as a man.
If you break your word, your worth plummets and you were ostracized in the community.
What Rand did was break his word to his constituents and supporters by backing the enemy McCONnel, another reason Trump will not win the election this year. My generation along with many others as well as Christians still hold a man at his word, and Trump cannot be trusted to keep his, because his allegiance changes like the wind.
I so do hope this generation gets what I'm saying, because it's the very same values that this great nation was built on, and if they refuse to hold their leaders to tried and true measures of a man, this nation will fall.
When people say this Nation was built upon Judeo Christian values, this is what they're referring to."

The entire conversation is here.
http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/01/11/2746384/

Quote from: Solar on January 15, 2016, 06:22:51 AM
Maybe you can make this post out to be your own.
I'm on Discuss debating one of the very same people you describe over Rand Paul losing support because he aligned with the enemy.
After several back and forth, it finally dawned on me why I was failing to get through to him. The post is self explanatory.

"conservativepoliticalforum.com 

You really don't get it do you?
I'm a Conservative, that means living by a set of core values, something today's generation lacks severely.
In my 60 plus years I have lived by a moral code, values.
They are the same ones I had as a child and have never changed.
I see where the disconnect is and understand why you are unable to grasp my point.
My generation grew up holding a man to his word. Your word is your worth, not your bank account, but your integrity as a man.
If you break your word, your worth plummets and you were ostracized in the community.
What Rand did was break his word to his constituents and supporters by backing the enemy McCONnel, another reason Trump will not win the election this year. My generation along with many others as well as Christians still hold a man at his word, and Trump cannot be trusted to keep his, because his allegiance changes like the wind.
I so do hope this generation gets what I'm saying, because it's the very same values that this great nation was built on, and if they refuse to hold their leaders to tried and true measures of a man, this nation will fall.
When people say this Nation was built upon Judeo Christian values, this is what they're referring to."

The entire conversation is here.
http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/01/11/2746384/

I think I'm going to do just that and then logout and see what they have to say.

Quote from: Dubinsky on January 15, 2016, 06:31:44 AM
I think I'm going to do just that and then logout and see what they have to say.

Heads will explode.

Quote from: Solar on January 15, 2016, 06:50:58 AM

Heads will explode.

I'm going to wait for just the right opening to post it.

Quote from: Dubinsky on January 15, 2016, 04:26:25 AM
I want to throw something out there and ask what people think particularly Solar since I find him to very well informed.  At another board where the vote is split about 50-50 between Trump and Cruz, the Trump supporters keep saying that if Trump were to drop out that his votes would not go to Cruz because Trump supporters won't vote for Cruz and that he's not electable nationally. The establishment would then throw their support to Jeb or Rubio both of whom can easily be controlled and whatever Democrat support Trump has would be also do the same.

Frankly I thought Trump was his usual buffoon-like self with his stupid faces and shallow comments.

What do you think?

I'm a dyed in wool Ted Cruz supporter...all the way even if he doesn't get the nomination I'm going to write in his name. But, I think Trump did a bit better last night, he scored two major points, first he made Jeb look stupid over Boeing going to China. Second that whole flap over New York Value's with Ted Cruz, I thought he gave a good answer. Even though Ted is right on the money about New York being a socially liberal/leftist place. HE wasn't outrageous as he has been in past debates, the pundits like to use the term bombastic.

But Ted got in a few good ones, the important thing is he stood up to Trump, cleared his name over the Birther thing and completely slammed shut the case on the "Goldman sachs Loan"....notice no one came back at him after that.

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on January 15, 2016, 07:06:21 AM

I'm a dyed in wool Ted Cruz supporter...all the way even if he doesn't get the nomination I'm going to write in his name. But, I think Trump did a bit better last night, he scored two major points, first he made Jeb look stupid over Boeing going to China. Second that whole flap over New York Value's with Ted Cruz, I thought he gave a good answer. Even though Ted is right on the money about New York being a socially liberal/leftist place. HE wasn't outrageous as he has been in past debates, the pundits like to use the term bombastic.

But Ted got in a few good ones, the important thing is he stood up to Trump, cleared his name over the Birther thing and completely slammed shut the case on the "Goldman sachs Loan"....notice no one came back at him after that.

Here's another thing about taking Trump at his word.  Recall how for months he proclaimed that his people were over in Kenya and he had all the proof he needed to prove Obama wasn't a citizen?  In fact twice he got media attention over it a few months apart.

Now he tries to pull the same bullshit on Cruz.

Seems that went nowhere just Trump being the blowhard that he is.

Another thing that he does that pisses me off.  Someone challenges him on an issue.  He gives his view.  The other party counters it then what does he always do?  First he tells you what a great person the other party is then he proceeds to attack the person's integrity and competence.  He's like a petulant child sticking his tongue and going nah, nah, nah...you can't catch me because I'm leading in the polls so I'm right and you're wrong.

I'm still waiting for a moderator at a debate to actually press him for details and not just claim there's a time factor so we have to move onto another question.  I had hoped Cavuto would have done that. The guy is so shallow that he can play handball against the curb.

Wow.... that looked well scripted, and rehearsed - except Cruz wasn't let in until the performance had already begun.
I've seen about enough of the LOUSY moderating from FOX - giving Donald Trump free reign (not a misspelling) to ramble on and on without a rebuttal from Cruz is down right dirty, dishonest and biased. The hit was planned (kinda figured it would be), but I at least expected Cruz to be allowed to ANSWER the charges.  Substance...?   You wanted to hear SUBSTANCE?!   Not a chance in this one.   The opportunity for the moderators to bring out real substantial issues that would matter to Americans under anyone's Presidency, was lost... except for Kasich and Christie, nobody got anything out noteworthy - a waste of time..  If the moderators can't TURN OFF the mics, they're inviting a free-for-all of interruptions.

On a scale of 1-5...   1=terrible, 2=MEH, boring, 3=I'll give a listen, 4=some good points, 5=really good

Donald Trump (4)  Not disappointing anyone from NYC, the Bully took Cruz' Nanny State issue and completely turned it around to a 911 issue.  Shaking my head... that was "too good, Donald, you did a great job on the first take, it's a wrap!"   Best supporting actor, shared between Marco & the moderators.   Trump is the emperor-with-no-clothes, on the issues.   The salesman selling the sizzle instead of the steak - he's tank of big talk... is empty.   We know he shot his wad, the immigration issue, and all he's got going for him (without betraying who he REALLY IS), is negative attacks.   As Cruz' numbers go up, Trumps numbers stagnate & drop, Trump had nothing else to do, than raise false flags on the other candidates - and hope the audience is too stupid to see through it.  The TAX stuff, why do we want to use TAXES to PUNISH anyone?  Trump remains a media event.... which is dangerous, the MSM "made" him, they can also "ruin" him - that's the ace-in-the-hole for MSM.   

Ted Cruz - (4)  Bloodied by a 3 sided attack, it appeared Ted knew what was coming, but didn't know it'd be a coordinated attack.  What he rebounded nicely to Trump, despite the interruptions - Trump's method of controlling the narrative - his 'if you're my VP, and I get booted, you'd be the Pres' showed his brilliance as a fast thinker, over Trumps brute force.  Had Ted Cruz been given the TIME TO RESPOND without side arguments from Trump & Rubio (Badman and Rotten...?), he might have done better.  Cruz was out of his element, and wasn't able to leverage the debate to his advantage.   I don't get the VAT bit, if that's the direction Cruz is headed, I'll be pumping the brakes.  However, the import TAX in and consumption RETAIL tax is a winner with me - just eliminate the income TAX.

Marco Rubio - (5)  ONLY because of his timing, he was able to stick the knife in Cruz, after Trump gave him the opening.   Then, right on que, the moderators cut Cruz off, making Marco (the accuser of the brethren), the perfect VP choice for Donald Trump.   Good GOD!   Get me some prescription strength anti-acid!  Marco got his points in, perfect timing.  Were it not for Christie's bitch slap, we would have been hearing Rubio's interruptions ALL-NIGHT-LONG.   Still with practically nothing worthwhile to add to the debate, Marco appeals to the emotions of the Left and Right, which side he's actually on, escapes me.  For a guy who lives for fast talking sound bites, he is the best, and shined.   I don't have to agree with him politically, to say, he eeked out the win, over the rest.  Yes, he scored POINTS, with the help of Cruz' politeness and moderators cutting off the rebuttal. 

Ben Carson - (4)  The slow start award belongs to Ben.  While he was getting up to speed, the debate had already moved on, he's still playing catch-up.   Really, his commentary was needed in the FIRST debate, and go from there, too late, but, he was still a breath of fresh air among all the flying dirt from Trump and Rubio.  I like this guy, he's a gentleman and a scholar - but not a politician.   I'd like to hear him go one-on-one with Hillary on healthcare (reality vs fiction).  I like the idea of a "safe zone" - keep the refugees over there.

Chris Christie - (4)  If this guy was RIGHT on the issues..., well, he's not, therein lies the problem.   Personally he strikes the right balance in tone, I want to like him, but he's a RINO and it'll take more than a complete make-over to change that.  Chris did good, because he got to the Presidential ISSUES, and stayed there - but he's just wrong on those issues, planned parenthood, has gotten his support, just like Trump.  I loved his retort to Marco's interruption, "you had your chance Marco, and you blew it!"... and Marco actually SHUT UP...!   Christie knows how to bring order to the fray & disorder and bring it back under control, he's good at it - without turning off the audience (unlike Trump)

Jeb Bush - (1)  The last desperate gasp of a dying candidacy.   Yea, he and Ben had to remind the moderators they were still there!  The positions he brought up opened the door for continued immigration abuse, we can't vet them now, hypothetical arguments about immigration are meaningless.   Too little, too late for this RINO.   After that dripping wet kiss he blew Nikki Haley, (was she turning a bit red from all the attention?), I was scratching my head, "what the hell is this?  First Donald sucking up, now Bush....?   Carly didn't get this kind of slobbering attention".

John Kasich - (1)  During his first answer, he sounded nervously WORN OUT.   Was he trembling?   I could hear it in his voice, he didn't convince me he wanted to be there, but was trying to get-thru-the-motions unscathed.   Well, success, John - you were completely ignored!