Quote from: Telmark on September 15, 2013, 04:21:44 AM
Poverty, real or imagined, will exist as long as there's a profit in it.

These "poverty profiteers" include those who receive public assistance benefits, those who make money doing businesses with them, and those who receive their political votes.

Reducing any one of the above would do much to end the chronic "poverty of profit and votes" cycle that has been harming this country since LBJ.

Well said. There will always be a mkt for the likes of Jesse and Al as long as they can create an exclusionary victim class.
The "poverty status" claim plays right into their hands and the Dims happily play along.

I, unfortunately, failed understand just how bad this "poverty for profit" system was until the early '90s. My roommate, who worked as a checker at a major grocery chain, used to complain about it all the time (this was in the early/mid '80s). He kept saying "these non-working welfare bums live better than we do" again and again. Sadly, I convinced myself that our/my government would not allow this to happen. Also had an (auto mechanic) co-worker that claimed the same thing during these years. Again, I told myself that this just couldn't be (he kept trying to tell me, and others, that the "welfare trash" were driving nicer and newer vehicles than we working mechanics could afford).

Well, my wife and I finally began to see the truth firsthand while we rented a unit in a relatively expensive condo complex. It didn't take us long to realize that all 25 or so of the "visitor" parking spaces were taken day and night on and around the 1st and the 15th of every month (these chronic twice-a-month visitors were, of course, cheating the "welfare system" by collecting benefits from residences that they did not live in on a full-time basis). It was also during this time that we noticed lots of strange looking and acting people shopping at the nearby grocery stores (these people would often hastily over-load their grocery carts with expensive foods without comparing or even looking at the prices). This, of course, made them standout from everyone else (it took me while to figure this out). One cranked-out looking couple went as far as to buy a cartload of expensive pork roasts with food stamps (the checker tried to turn them away, but the manager insisted that she "ring them up". After this my wife went out of her way to avoid shopping on these days.

It was also around this time that I started a business that was located very close to a restaurant, which in turn was next to a little mini-market/grocery store. Well, this restaurant was known for buying meats and other foodstuffs from the vehicle trunks and pickup beds of the "food stampers" in and around the area. These food stampers would buy meats and the like from the mini-market, etc, etc, and then sell it to the restaurant at 50 cents on the dollar (a dollar of food stamp food would net them 50 cents in cash). Everyone knew about this (working people, including myself, avoided eating at this dump restaurant).

One old-timer, that worked at a auto repair biz next to my shop, had a habit of saying "well, it's another mother's day...wonder what we're gonna see around here this time." Man, I soon realized that these "mother's day" periods coincided with a very sharp increase in crime and public drug/drunkenness. Homicides, bank robberies, assaults, shootouts, and domestic disturbances doubled and tripled during these times of the month. My shop, along with several other business, had an alley that ran behind us and we used to hear disturbing sounds from that alley that were like that of pumpkins being smashed on the ground (these sounds were, in reality, those of someone being beaten during a robbery or domestic dispute).

Having a high crime rate is bad enough. But having a high crime rate that's knowingly and willingly funded almost entirely by our government via our working taxes is just plain evil.

Quote from: Telmark on September 15, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
I, unfortunately, failed understand just how bad this "poverty for profit" system was until the early '90s. My roommate, who worked as a checker at a major grocery chain, used to complain about it all the time (this was in the early/mid '80s). He kept saying "these non-working welfare bums live better than we do" again and again.

Back in the nineties I was looking for a new apartment, and I saw a block of nice looking places.  Then I found out they were some kind of "low income" housing, and I was SOL because I was stupid enough to have a job.  I was young but I was an engineer, and most of the cars in the parking lot were fancier than mine.

As insane and idiotic as all that is, the worst part is that the genuinely disadvantaged get screwed over worse than anyone.  The only people who're able to finagle the byzantine mazes of red tape to full advantage are those who are fully capable of getting REAL jobs.

I'll bet those nice looking places weren't so nice as you might think. You can spend a pile of money to fix a place up, but, for the most part, those who live off their neighbor's hard work seldom take care of what they get for free (or a greatly reduced price).

Quote from: Yawn on September 15, 2013, 04:47:30 PM
I'll bet those nice looking places weren't so nice as you might think. You can spend a pile of money to fix a place up, but, for the most part, those who live off their neighbor's hard work seldom take care of what they get for free (or a greatly reduced price).

Of course.  That's why they "need" extra maintenance and repairs, 24-hour security, maid service, daily groundscleaning, free organic vegetables delivered to their doors (whether they decide to eat any of them or not) etc., etc., etc....  I wouldn't be surprised if it costs three times what a normal apartment costs just to LOOK like it's not a urine-soaked asylum.

(And don't get me wrong; I wouldn't live next to those government-financed reprobates if it was free - or even if you paid me to.)

But whatever I happened to trip across was the tip of the iceberg.  In inner cities, the government takes million-dollar brownstones and converts them to crack houses overnight -- your tax dollars at work.

Plus, I don't know the details of some of these new programs.  But the other day I was in a grocery story behind this man who very obviously should have been institutionalized.  But he appeared to have his own personal shopper guiding him through every step -- and she gave off a pretty strong government-employee vibe.  As she ran his groceries through, he was ranting about how if we could just vote those damned Republicans out of the House of Representatives, America's economy would skyrocket.

This guy didn't really look like he could tie his own shoelaces.  But somebody had thoroughly drilled this vegetable about the importance of voting and - oh, by the way - how incredibly evil all Republicans are.  I have a sneaky suspicion that's where a lot of ACORN employees ended up:  as government-financed indoctrinators for the voters whom operatives of the now-nationwide Daley Machine fondly refer to as "meat puppets."

The condo complex we lived at was actually clean and well maintained (as was most of that part of the city during much of the '90s).

However, that area is much worse today. Litter and graffiti is everywhere, numerous section 8 "families" live in every neighborhood and apartment complex, and disrespectful or down-right thuggish people are now more the norm rather than the exception (just stopping by a mini-mart, or even a chain grocery store, is like visiting an inner city bar of the 1980s). Work-not thugs and want-to-be gangster punks are everywhere.

By the late '90s it got so bad that we eventually moved to another county farther north that was, for the most part, much cleaner and well maintained (the cost of living was also much lower). Unfortunately, that area of the State turned out to be one of the top ten most corrupt counties in the entire country. The city we lived in made National headline news when one of its hospitals was caught performing absolutely unnecessary heart surgeries (approximately 200 people died while undergoing these profit driven heart surgeries).

Anyway, this "litter and section 8" scenario seems to be fairly prevalent across the country these days. And much of the blame for this can, imo, be placed on lazy "liberal" parenting and incompetent and/or "politically correct" public schools.

A case in point is that during 60s and 70s students who littered were sentenced to performing "litter patrol" after school. School grounds fighting, "talking back" and other disruptive behavior was not tolerated. But today's students are rarely, if ever, disciplined for such acts (and teachers are often allowed to get away with drug dealing and/or molesting their students). And grades? Well, we all know what a joke they are today (Billy the bully and mouthy Mary can often make it through grade and even high school while being functionally illiterate (some these illiterates even make it through college).

Another point is that up until the mid '80s if you didn't work and/or were on public assistance you lived in the older part of town. Now days such people live in every type of neighborhood, including the most upscale and expensive.

The bottom line is that this country now has far too many people who have no pride, no work ethic, and no respect for anyone or anything.

Thanks alot for sharing these stories, being a norwegian I find it hilarious (and discomforting) that you americans are even more socialist than norway 

In Norway a poor person living on social wellfare will have problems keeping a car at the same time as he is paying rent or mortage. You usually never see a man on social wellfare with a car in norway because the car tax and gasoline tax is so high it would be impossible to pay all the taxes and annual registrations without running into difficulty. However couples on social wellfare are able to keep cars. I guess my government hatred for cars or love for taxes is greater than the willingness to get more votes through food stamps or free cars. I emphasize man because if you are a woman you can get loads of benefits, even free housing abroad, but the prerequisite is that your gender is female. I wonder what the LGBT community will do about this?

When I worked part time as freelance taxi driver I often drove women going to the city to "snatch" a man to get pregnant, they talked about how they were so tired of their children and how hard it was being a single mother when she was taking every weekend off to get more children to get more wellfare. In norway if you get a woman pregnant and you don't life together you have to pay 10% of your brutto income to the woman, so if you run a one man business then 10% of that business income have to go to the woman.

The government do give free housing to asalym seekers, drug abusers and single mothers though. It also gives more benefits to singles living alone on social wellfare, which is a huge reason why many don't marry in Norway, if you marry you lose benefits if one of the couple is working. I have 3 friends who are not registered partners with their girlfriends because the girlfriends would loose their social security income if they did register. And social security is 70% of median income. Which also means that if they get a low paying job they would get less money than being on wellfare.

I have even some unemployed friends who get social security and still have money to go on casino/prostitution trips to Budapest every year.

There is a big difference though between the working poor and the parasitic wellfare poor. Even the die hard socialist will have hard time defending that the parasitic wellfare poor can afford or is recieving luxury items.

This thread reminds me of a good Milton Friedman quote: If you subsidies something, you are going to get more of it.

Very well said MountS.

And yes, there is difference between the working poor and the parasitic welfare poor. About the only time I disagree with this a when a parent or the parents work unskilled and/or low wage jobs while, at the same time, they continue to have children when they already have kids they can't provide for (without relying on 1 or more forms of public assistance). Such parents often make little or no effort to improve their situation and/or to practice responsible birth control. Then there's the "welfare hires" that I've had the displeasure of working with that did everything they could to get fired (and back on welfare).

Meanwhile, my wife decided to only have 2 kids (we both worked full-time then). I also made 2 complete career changes (and several other semi-changes) in order to stay employed during the last 40 years (this included starting 2 separate "brick and mortar" businesses). These changes almost always occurred during economic downturns in '83 and '92, and in '02 when I decided to switch to I.T. after more than 15 years as a full-time (or more) auto mechanic.

In other words, I didn't try to hop on the welfare wagon whenever things got tough (I've never collected unemployment even though I've lost at least 3 jobs due to business closings and layoffs). I've also "returned to school more than 4 times in my working life in order to stay competitive in my field of work. Note: I must say that I accepted and/or borrowed money from my family and friends from time to time between the '80s and '90s...

Quote from: Telmark on September 16, 2013, 08:16:08 AM
Very well said MountS.

And yes, there is difference between the working poor and the parasitic welfare poor. About the only time I disagree with this a when a parent or the parents work unskilled and/or low wage jobs while, at the same time, they continue to have children when they already have kids they can't provide for (without relying on 1 or more forms of public assistance). Such parents often make little or no effort to improve their situation and/or to practice responsible birth control. Then there's the "welfare hires" that I've had the displeasure of working with that did everything they could to get fired (and back on welfare).

Meanwhile, my wife decided to only have 2 kids (we both worked full-time then). I also made 2 complete career changes (and several other semi-changes) in order to stay employed during the last 40 years (this included starting 2 separate "brick and mortar" businesses). These changes almost always occurred during economic downturns in '83 and '92, and in '02 when I decided to switch to I.T. after more than 15 years as a full-time (or more) auto mechanic.

In other words, I didn't try to hop on the welfare wagon whenever things got tough (I've never collected unemployment even though I've lost at least 3 jobs due to business closings and layoffs). I've also "returned to school more than 4 times in my working life in order to stay competitive in my field of work. Note: I must say that I accepted and/or borrowed money from my family and friends from time to time between the '80s and '90s...

Your hard work and never giving up is an inspiration to always keep improving oneself in order to be able to procure employment or start own business. Even though I have never taken wellfare I have lived free in my fathers house working part time but not paying rent while studying so I too have depended on private charity of family members. But this is different from recieving wellfare, nobody is coerced.

My mother in law who is black as the night and has lived through racism all her life has never taken any form of wellfare even though she was single mother with 4 children. She even managed to put her children through college and get vocation in private schools, get a house and improve it over 30 years so that she can rent out apartments for extra income, all of this without any form of wellfare and she worked as a minimum wage earning cook at a resturant in the informal sector. Americans would learn a lot from her... it took very hard work, dedication and faith, something people in the west has forgotten. Today she still works as a cook earning $25 dollars everyday but has nice house, HD 46 inch TV, computer and all other whiteware electronics, and she got it all by herself and teaching her children the value of hard work.

Quote from: Mountainshield on September 16, 2013, 07:36:07 AM
This thread reminds me of a good Milton Friedman quote: If you subsidies something, you are going to get more of it.

It's so bizarre.  The SAME PEOPLE who zealously believe the CO2 man emits into the forty quadrillion tons of earth's atmosphere will irrevocably send the earth into an unrecoverable tailspin to oblivion...

...refuse to even consider the possibility that providing trillion dollars in perverse incentives to the poorest and most vulnerable individuals in America can possibly impact their behavior in any negative way.

Quote from: Mountainshield on September 16, 2013, 08:43:08 AM
But this is different from recieving wellfare, nobody is coerced.

This is exactly what needs to be said; these people that helped me, and at times me and my wife/kids did so of their own free will. I'll also note that they did this while they were forced to fund millions of parasitic welfare people who often had never worked, let alone looked for work in their lives.

Helping the "poor" and helping the poor help themselves is one thing. Aiding, abetting, and increasing the number of parasitic people (who all too often lead criminal lifestyles) is another thing entirely.

Quote from: Telmark on September 16, 2013, 09:55:35 AM
This is exactly what needs to be said; these people that helped me, and at times me and my wife/kids did so of their own free will. I'll also note that they did this while they were forced to fund millions of parasitic welfare people who often had never worked, let alone looked for work in their lives.

Helping the "poor" and helping the poor help themselves is one thing. Aiding, abetting, and increasing the number of parasitic people (who all too often lead criminal lifestyles) is another thing entirely.

Ah, but often they do work. Low end jobs that don't require much in the way of skills and often they are paid in cash.

Quote from: mdgiles on September 16, 2013, 10:21:00 AM
Ah, but often they do work. Low end jobs that don't require much in the way of skills and often they are paid in cash.

You are correct sir.

Reminds me of the "poor" white family we had as neighbors in CA. Gal would one day tell my wife (they spoke often) about how they were "barely" making it on welfare in their section 8 house (which was larger and nicer than our house). The next day she'd brag about how her brat "alphabet syndrome" kids would only wear $20 logo T-shirts (this was in '02 or '03).

This damned woman also ran an illegal "daycare" center for kids during the day, and a drug dealing house day and night (the daycare business was a great "front" for all the traffic this house generated). She even went as far as to brag about what she charged for her daycare services while she attended a neighborhood 4th of July get-together and BBQ (I can't remember how much this was, but it was substantial). This is not to mention that her idea of running a daycare center meant letting the 10 -15 or more kids (of all ages) run wild in the streets and the neighbor's yards. Her yard, believe it or not, was generally off-limits to this hoard if kids (the yard was for the "tots" according to her). Btw, no amount of calls to the county or city by various neighbors ever resulted in anything being done about this (the city had clear-cut laws and regulations against unlicensed daycare operations, but they were never enforced in this case).

Quote from: Telmark on September 16, 2013, 11:49:23 AM
Btw, no amount of calls to the county or city by various neighbors ever resulted in anything being done about this (the city had clear-cut laws and regulations against unlicensed daycare operations, but they were never enforced in this case).

If that were a TAXPAYING business, government inspectors would be giving them hourly rectal exams. 

If there were any common sense to the Welfare state (ignoring for a moment the fact that it wouldn't exist in the first place) being on the public dole should essentially be like being on probation.  But it really works the opposite way around.

I know a lady who's trying to get a 16-year old taken away from her abusive parents.  And the fact that these "parents" are on Welfare and have a laundry list of mental disorders gives them MORE leeway with the courts than working people would have (not to mention unlimited free lawyers.)   My parents weren't perfect - no one's are.  But they worked their damned asses off keeping me fed and sheltered.  Parents who don't even meet that minimal standard are basically just paid foster parents who substitute an ejaculation for the background checks.

Quote from: daidalos on September 14, 2013, 05:33:28 PM

Look I'm not saying Americans don't have it good.

There is no doubt that the poor in this nation have it way better than the "poor" in most other nations.

This is why not only do I for one thank God I am an American.

But also why I get so upset when other Americans denigrate and disrespect this nation of ours.

But the and not to attack you, the OP makes it sound in this thread as if that's a bad thing, or if somehow we should be ashamed that Americans have it that good.

I"m sorry but if that's the intention then I have to say bull shit.

I don't see anybody "ashamed" that Americans have it good, except for the Obamas and their fans / supporters.

The OP and conservatives in general have one simple complaint.....the abject lies about poverty in America, which virtually doesn't exist.

Yes, there is some here and there, and they are well taken care of by our generous safety net.  A safety net that is flat out being stolen by most of those partaking in it.

It's similar to the cries of "racism" all over the place.  Yeah, there's about 15 klansmen and Aryan supremacists out there actively practicing racism today.  Yet the proverbial racism pimps are still squealing like it's 1855 and 1955.