Calling socialist health care systems that Bernie loves triggers the hell out of libs...
https://conservativehardliner.com/americans-would-never-tolerate-canadas-or-uks-third-world-health-care-system
QuoteFew things trigger leftists more than being told the United States has the best health care in the world. They've been fooled into believing the American system is inferior to other countries in the field of health care. What's hilarious is even the most ardent socialists in our country wouldn't for a day tolerate what Canadian and NHS citizens suffer.
No first-world system has 6 to 12+ month wait times for non-urgent care. These countries take it as a badge of honor for some reason, because it's "cheaper". Wait a year for a knee replacement? Or to get a new hip? Or replace a herniated disc? No way I could live in a country with that low of a quality of life. Here's a Canadian doctor talking about wait times to a guy who thinks breadlines are a "good thing":
Nice work with the post.
The underlying report used to display Canadian wait times was nice to peruse.
The wait times didn't seem bad, and other countries with Universal Healthcare have even shorter times.
Unfortunately I couldn't find and wait time data for the US.
Anecdotally, my co-worker just had to wait about 3.5 weeks to see a specialist
Quote from: joesixpack on January 13, 2020, 08:40:29 AM
Nice work with the post.
The underlying report used to display Canadian wait times was nice to peruse.
The wait times didn't seem bad, and other countries with Universal Healthcare have even shorter times.
Unfortunately I couldn't find and wait time data for the US.
Anecdotally, my co-worker just had to wait about 3.5 weeks to see a specialist
I am seeing 3 specialist and the wait was under 4 days for each. Your co-worker need to ask their doctor why that long.
Quote from: walkstall on January 13, 2020, 08:51:30 AM
It depends a lot on what it's for. Even in the report on Canada many wait times are short.
It also depends on the region, 1 in particular in Canada had longer wait times than the others combined almost
The spin that is used when saying "non urgent" is disingenuous. How do they know the problem is non urgent if they don't give you the needed care to begin with? In the US if you got to the ER complaining of neurological issues they will examine you and then send you up for tests and scans. Then you will bee seen by the specialist and if you are not diagnosed a course of action is devised in the UK, do they do the scans? No. In the UK they examine you and then send you home where you wait weeks to see the specialist. once you see the specialist do you get the tests and scans? No. You go home and wait for your date. Once you have the scans you wait for your date to see the specialist for the results. Do you see the specialist? No. He's too busy because there are not enough doctors in the NHS. So, you see a nurse practitioner who reads a report but can't answer any questions because she is not a specialist. What would take a few hours in the US takes months in the UK.
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 13, 2020, 11:12:18 AM
The spin that is used when saying "non urgent" is disingenuous. How do they know the problem is non urgent if they don't give you the needed care to begin with? In the US if you got to the ER complaining of neurological issues they will examine you and then send you up for tests and scans. Then you will bee seen by the specialist and if you are not diagnosed a course of action is devised in the UK, do they do the scans? No. In the UK they examine you and then send you home where you wait weeks to see the specialist. once you see the specialist do you get the tests and scans? No. You go home and wait for your date. Once you have the scans you wait for your date to see the specialist for the results. Do you see the specialist? No. He's too busy because there are not enough doctors in the NHS. So, you see a nurse practitioner who reads a report but can't answer any questions because she is not a specialist. What would take a few hours in the US takes months in the UK.
I'm posting this in the comments.....
Quote from: joesixpack on January 13, 2020, 08:57:22 AM
It depends a lot on what it's for. Even in the report on Canada many wait times are short.
It also depends on the region, 1 in particular in Canada had longer wait times than the others combined almost
Therein lies the issue! The US does mot have wait times!
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 13, 2020, 11:12:18 AM
The spin that is used when saying "non urgent" is disingenuous. How do they know the problem is non urgent if they don't give you the needed care to begin with? In the US if you got to the ER complaining of neurological issues they will examine you and then send you up for tests and scans. Then you will bee seen by the specialist and if you are not diagnosed a course of action is devised in the UK, do they do the scans? No. In the UK they examine you and then send you home where you wait weeks to see the specialist. once you see the specialist do you get the tests and scans? No. You go home and wait for your date. Once you have the scans you wait for your date to see the specialist for the results. Do you see the specialist? No. He's too busy because there are not enough doctors in the NHS. So, you see a nurse practitioner who reads a report but can't answer any questions because she is not a specialist. What would take a few hours in the US takes months in the UK.
Well said Boo...
Quote from: Solar on January 13, 2020, 11:29:47 AM
Therein lies the issue! The US does mot have wait times!
That's simply not true. I already gave an example.
Unless you're talking about ER wait times?
If that's the case, I'll ask about it when I get back to work on Thursday the 23rd
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 13, 2020, 11:12:18 AM
The spin that is used when saying "non urgent" is disingenuous. How do they know the problem is non urgent if they don't give you the needed care to begin with? In the US if you got to the ER complaining of neurological issues they will examine you and then send you up for tests and scans. Then you will bee seen by the specialist and if you are not diagnosed a course of action is devised in the UK, do they do the scans? No. In the UK they examine you and then send you home where you wait weeks to see the specialist. once you see the specialist do you get the tests and scans? No. You go home and wait for your date. Once you have the scans you wait for your date to see the specialist for the results. Do you see the specialist? No. He's too busy because there are not enough doctors in the NHS. So, you see a nurse practitioner who reads a report but can't answer any questions because she is not a specialist. What would take a few hours in the US takes months in the UK.
Are you from the UK?
If they examine you and determine your life isn't in threat, is there something wrong with scheduling a follow-up for a specialist?
I went to the ER 3 or 4 years ago with chest pains...first, it was the urgent Care where I had to pay $200 for an EKG.
They referred me across the street to the hospital where they checked my blood pressure and did an x-ray on me and determined that I had a chest bruise from working out.
Then I got a bill at home for $14K because I had just begun my new job and didn't qualify for the insurance yet.
That entire process lasted about 4 hours.
Quote from: joesixpack on January 13, 2020, 12:51:49 PM
Are you from the UK?
If they examine you and determine your life isn't in threat, is there something wrong with scheduling a follow-up for a specialist?
I went to the ER 3 or 4 years ago with chest pains...first, it was the urgent Care where I had to pay $200 for an EKG.
They referred me across the street to the hospital where they checked my blood pressure and did an x-ray on me and determined that I had a chest bruise from working out.
Then I got a bill at home for $14K because I had just begun my new job and didn't qualify for the insurance yet.
That entire process lasted about 4 hours.
What I posted happened to my brother-in-law. He began having neurological issues. Blurred vision, numbness in an arm, loss of balance and severe migraines. When the migraine got so bad my sister took him to the ER. He explained his symptoms and then said he needs to have brain scans but a specialist makes that determination. So, they gave him something for the migraine and sent him home. Weeks later he finally had the results of the scans but didn't understand what the problem was because he didn't see the specialist for the results. After weeks of waiting they still had no answer and had to pay to see a private doctor. This time they had an appointment and the scans and the results in a week.
What took a few months in the UK would take 4-5 hours in a US hospital.
I worked in Europe for a few years and we had a manufacturing plant in the UK that I visited regularly. All the managers had company supplied private insurance. When the subject came up my UK associate told me that if you scheduled an appointment to have a wart removed, then by the time you saw a doctor he would be removing your foot for gangrene. Apparently this was not his own interpretation but instead a common UK description for their government system.
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 13, 2020, 02:26:03 PM
What I posted happened to my brother-in-law. He began having neurological issues. Blurred vision, numbness in an arm, loss of balance and severe migraines. When the migraine got so bad my sister took him to the ER. He explained his symptoms and then said he needs to have brain scans but a specialist makes that determination. So, they gave him something for the migraine and sent him home. Weeks later he finally had the results of the scans but didn't understand what the problem was because he didn't see the specialist for the results. After weeks of waiting they still had no answer and had to pay to see a private doctor. This time they had an appointment and the scans and the results in a week.
What took a few months in the UK would take 4-5 hours in a US hospital.
I used this to reply to someone mentioning something similar about Brits using private insurance....
Another anecdote that happened to me today:
My company switch healthcare providers in October.
My current doctor doesn't take the new provider.
I called someone in-network to set up an appointment and the had 2 dates available for new patients. Jan. 24 or Feb. 26.
Our system has plenty of waiting involved in it
Jan 24th? That's not a wait.
If it is something small then go to the local clinic of your choice and get what you need.
If it is critical then you can go to the ER. When you have Obama Care that is where you go anyways because there is no co-pay at the ER. Remember how Obama Care was going to prevent people from going to the ER? It did the opposite. Obama Care was all a lie caused by the right and left. If you have a problem with only 15% of the population then they could fix that without ruining it for the 85%. The reason your employer probably had to change their provider was most likely because Obama Care directive costs. The other problem is because a group of lawyers now sitting in Congress will not do anything to fix our blackmail system called the courts. This is one subject that the Europeans have correct.
Quote from: carolina73 on January 14, 2020, 10:07:20 AM
Jan 24th? That's not a wait.
If it is something small then go to the local clinic of your choice and get what you need.
If it is critical then you can go to the ER. When you have Obama Care that is where you go anyways because there is no co-pay at the ER. (https://www.nhcaa.org/resources/health-care-anti-fraud-resources/the-challenge-of-health-care-fraud.aspx) Remember how Obama Care was going to prevent people from going to the ER? It did the opposite. Obama Care was all a lie caused by the right and left. If you have a problem with only 15% of the population then they could fix that without ruining it for the 85%. (https://medcitynews.com/2019/10/new-jama-study-finds-administrative-complexity-as-the-single-largest-source-of-wasteful-spending/) The reason your employer probably had to change their provider was most likely because Obama Care directive costs. The other problem is because a group of lawyers now sitting in Congress will not do anything to fix our blackmail system called the courts. (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6455446-Waste-in-the-US-JAMA-1019.html) This is one subject that the Europeans have correct.
My employer switched from United Health to Humana. The reason was simply cost, they explained that to us in our annual profits meeting. They price-shop every year.
I'm just trying to go for my annual physical. Nothing urgent. I can't go on the 24th of Jan., so I took the Feb. 26 date. So...it's a month an a half wait for a physical for me.
In the US about a third of all money spent in healthcare goes to wast, fraud or abuse. We're overspending for what everyone else is getting at a better price.
Quote from: joesixpack on January 14, 2020, 10:28:48 AM
My employer switched from United Health to Humana. The reason was simply cost, they explained that to us in our annual profits meeting. They price-shop every year.
I'm just trying to go for my annual physical. Nothing urgent. I can't go on the 24th of Jan., so I took the Feb. 26 date. So...it's a month an a half wait for a physical for me.
In the US about a third of all money spent in healthcare goes to wast, fraud or abuse. We're overspending for what everyone else is getting at a better price.
BS Joe the Troll.
Quote from: joesixpack on January 14, 2020, 10:28:48 AM
My employer switched from United Health to Humana. The reason was simply cost, they explained that to us in our annual profits meeting. They price-shop every year.
I'm just trying to go for my annual physical. Nothing urgent. I can't go on the 24th of Jan., so I took the Feb. 26 date. So...it's a month an a half wait for a physical for me.
In the US about a third of all money spent in healthcare goes to wast, fraud or abuse. We're overspending for what everyone else is getting at a better price.
If you are calling all the government regulations waste, and calling all of the frivolous lawsuits fraud, and all of the time the government sticks its nose where it does not belong abuse, then I might agree with you. But I have a feeling thagt is not what you are talking about.
How's the baby?
Quote from: s3779m on January 14, 2020, 04:59:21 PM
If you are calling all the government regulations waste, and calling all of the frivolous lawsuits fraud, and all of the time the government sticks its nose where it does not belong abuse, then I might agree with you. But I have a feeling thagt is not what you are talking about.
How's the baby?
Baby's great. We're waiting for that medical bill in the mail :scared:
And I'm just going by the various studies into the system. 1 in particular said that Administration and Paperwork was the biggest waste
Quote from: joesixpack on January 14, 2020, 10:28:48 AM
My employer switched from United Health to Humana. The reason was simply cost, they explained that to us in our annual profits meeting. They price-shop every year.
I'm just trying to go for my annual physical. Nothing urgent. I can't go on the 24th of Jan., so I took the Feb. 26 date. So...it's a month an a half wait for a physical for me.
In the US about a third of all money spent in healthcare goes to wast, fraud or abuse. We're overspending for what everyone else is getting at a better price.
Of course they will shop it. They are paying for it out of their pocket or the pocket of the stockholders.
We had a great and unique plan plan through our insurer. It had a $6000 deductible. We picked up $5500 of the $6000 deductible as a form of self insurance. It was administrated by the insurer so we did not distribute the self-insured part. The rest was reimbursed as normal insurance in terms of coverage but other than the $500 the employee paid nothing until co-pays after the $6000.
The cost was approximately $450 (family) a month and we could potentially be out the $5500 per employee. That means we could be out 11 grand but it turned out to be $7 to 8 grand a year. We had a few employees with cancer and they were very happy with the coverage.
Then Obama Care gets passed.
We are told that they can no longer supply our insurance plan and it had to meet one of the 5 models created by the government.
Within 3 years the cost went up to over $13 grand with less coverage and our employees lost all but $500 of the new deductible that kept rising. No one is happy and I had to take out a separate policy because I live out of state. I pay about $4000 more a year for that. It is not a good plan. The Obama Care plan was going to be about $30 grand because of my income if I went to private insurance.
Do I blame Democrats and Obama Care? Hell YEA!
Under Trump, this will be the first year we have stable pricing and do not need to shop.
I DEEM Pelosi, Biden and socialists to be economic terrorists.
If you like socialist style healthcare then look at the VA.
- It is an overstaffed Affirmative Action nightmare
- It usually pays more than other hospitals because the nurses fate watching the Affirmative Action employees doing nothing.
- The solution to cure the lack of service and availability at the VA was to let our veterans go to private hospitals. I never hear anyone saying that they wish they could go to the VA.
I challenge anyone to come up with anything the US government does well & efficiently.
Someone just posted this:
QuoteMy half brother who is Swedish..waited over a year before they would fix his ACL. He was in terrible pain. He argued with the Swedish docs but all they did was give him pain meds and told him to not go to work and collect disability. He couldn't do that to his customers (he had a car service center) plus disability couldn't support his family so he rigged a wheelchair so he could still work for the year wait. He and his wife and other relatives are always cursing the Sweden healthcare system.
Quote from: taxed on January 14, 2020, 07:55:11 PM
Someone just posted this:
Private insurance is an option in Sweden
Quote from: joesixpack on January 14, 2020, 10:02:13 PM
Private insurance is an option in Sweden
Amazing. Next thing you know they'll send robots to Mars.
Quote from: joesixpack on January 14, 2020, 05:19:46 PM
Baby's great. We're waiting for that medical bill in the mail :scared:
And I'm just going by the various studies into the system. 1 in particular said that Administration and Paperwork was the biggest waste
Something that hardly gets mentioned, our medical system, expensive beyond belief, is also the best. Unfortunately, even though most of us never need the best, we still chip in to pay for it. There is no "just pay for what you use" button. Now add in the fact that our system will not turn down anyone who needs emergency care, and we pay for that too. The American tax payer pays for everything, one way or another, period. We pay for those without insurance, we pay for those who need emergency care and have no money, and if bernie gets his medical care for all, we will pay for that too. Everytime a politician opens his mouth and tells you what he will do for you, we will pay for it.
Meanwhile over in France the poster child for the European Union universal healthcare a whopping 1200 doctors quit.....I wonder why, also where is the MSM......?
Please listen up Joe One Can as one person tweets....."WE can't show Americans how miserably 'socialist' France is failing... people might realise how good they have it under Trump".
1200 French doctors resign en masse...
https://www.citizenfreepress.com/breaking/1200-french-doctors-resign-en-masse/
Quote from: Bronx on January 16, 2020, 06:16:46 AM
Meanwhile over in France the poster child for the European Union universal healthcare a whopping 1200 doctors quit.....I wonder why, also where is the MSM......?
Please listen up Joe One Can as one person tweets....."WE can't show Americans how miserably 'socialist' France is failing... people might realise how good they have it under Trump".
1200 French doctors resign en masse...
https://www.citizenfreepress.com/breaking/1200-french-doctors-resign-en-masse/
https://www.thelocal.fr/20200114/strike-hospitals-whats-gone-wrong-with-hospitals-in-france
https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13981025000548
it wasn't active doctors, they were administrative staff, and they're trying to get more funding. Which wouldn't be a problem in America because we're the richest and the best. We can afford to fund our hospitals.
Quote from: joesixpack on January 16, 2020, 07:29:25 AM
https://www.thelocal.fr/20200114/strike-hospitals-whats-gone-wrong-with-hospitals-in-france
https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13981025000548
it wasn't active doctors, they were administrative staff, and they're trying to get more funding. Which wouldn't be a problem in America because we're the richest and the best. We can afford to fund our hospitals.
Are you using warren's plan? Do you have a cost? Do you know where the money will come from? Please don't just say we have the money, the government has NO money unless it takes it away from someone first. Add to that the fact that 47% pay no income tax and you are talking about the rest having to pick up the tab. Is this really what you are saying?
Quote from: joesixpack on January 16, 2020, 07:29:25 AM
https://www.thelocal.fr/20200114/strike-hospitals-whats-gone-wrong-with-hospitals-in-france
https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13981025000548
it wasn't active doctors, they were administrative staff, and they're trying to get more funding. Which wouldn't be a problem in America because we're the richest and the best. We can afford to fund our hospitals.
Uhh, yeah it is!
Your link alone proves it to be correct.
1,200 French Doctors Resign from Supervisory Roles in Protest over Gov't Funding for Public Hospitals
Thousands of other hospital staff and caregivers have signed a letter of support for the doctors, backing their calls for hiring additional staff and increasing the salaries of young doctors and non-medical staff.
"The resigning doctors ask nothing for themselves," the letter read, saying, "They continue to treat."
"The population must respond to their call. Their warning cry must be heard by the government," they stated
Fact is, France is in for a serious reform or there will be another revolution.
Quote from: s3779m on January 16, 2020, 07:54:09 AM
Are you using warren's plan? Do you have a cost? Do you know where the money will come from? Please don't just say we have the money, the government has NO money unless it takes it away from someone first. Add to that the fact that 47% pay no income tax and you are talking about the rest having to pick up the tab. Is this really what you are saying?
...exactly, and, we have consumers spending money on medical. It's not like every visit is a insurance claim.
One thing about Bernie bots, they get confused about the difference between health care itself, and insurance.
Another thing I've learned about Bernie bots is they don't respect these incredible skills, like brain surgery, or an eye surgeon. They think it's unfair that an eye surgeon makes a million bucks a year and drives a Maserati.
Quote from: s3779m on January 16, 2020, 07:54:09 AM
Are you using warren's plan? Do you have a cost? Do you know where the money will come from? Please don't just say we have the money, the government has NO money unless it takes it away from someone first. Add to that the fact that 47% pay no income tax and you are talking about the rest having to pick up the tab. Is this really what you are saying?
No, I'm just speaking generally.
We afforded our bailouts, we afforded our wars, we still afford our Sos Sec., our schools, our fire and police departments. We pay for what we want. The VA gets funding, the FAA gets funding, the USPS gets funding.
You get my point. What's happening in France is that they're asking for more funding. We, in American, can fund our hospitals.
Quote from: joesixpack on January 16, 2020, 08:51:12 AM
No, I'm just speaking generally.
We afforded our bailouts, we afforded our wars, we still afford our Sos Sec., our schools, our fire and police departments. We pay for what we want. The VA gets funding, the FAA gets funding, the USPS gets funding.
You get my point. What's happening in France is that they're asking for more funding. We, in American, can fund our hospitals.
The free market can fund hospitals. The free market funds pretty much everything, including government.
Quote from: taxed on January 16, 2020, 08:53:14 AM
The free market can fund hospitals. The free market funds pretty much everything, including government.
The free market can. The government can. It's a balance.
I think in Canada most hospitals are private. France also has private hospitals. Germany does as well, etc.
It's all a balance.
Where I was born, it's a public hospital. Where my child was born is a private hospital.
Quote from: joesixpack on January 16, 2020, 09:00:39 AM
The free market can. The government can. It's a balance.
I think in Canada most hospitals are private. France also has private hospitals. Germany does as well, etc.
It's all a balance.
Where I was born, it's a public hospital. Where my child was born is a private hospital.
No, it's not a balance. The government takes from the producers in the free market.
Quote from: joesixpack on January 16, 2020, 09:00:39 AM
The free market can. The government can. It's a balance.
I think in Canada most hospitals are private. France also has private hospitals. Germany does as well, etc.
It's all a balance.
Where I was born, it's a public hospital. Where my child was born is a private hospital.
They may have a private health sector but is a fraction of the size of the government program therefore it is very expensive and struggles to compete so, no there is no balance.
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 16, 2020, 05:06:06 PM
They may have a private health sector but is a fraction of the size of the government program therefore it is very expensive and struggles to compete so, no there is no balance. (https://khn.org/morning-breakout/government-now-pays-for-nearly-50-percent-of-health-care-spending-an-increase-driven-by-baby-boomers-shifting-into-medicare/)
Would you say that the US market is balanced now?
Quote from: joesixpack on January 16, 2020, 05:20:36 PM
Would you say that the US market is balanced now?
In what way exactly?