Quote from: kramarat on July 31, 2012, 02:50:36 PM
Um, Obamacare would be the most recent example. Do you live under a rock, or in your parent's basement?

Government can now force us to buy anything they tell us to. Refusal will be met with IRS agents, and possible imprisonment.

Do you support the Patriot Act?

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 31, 2012, 02:52:07 PM
Do you support the Patriot Act?

Nope. I didn't like the sounds of it, from the beginning.

QuoteHint hint wink wink; the two parties switched ideologies.  That's why the solid south turned republican.  That's why the 19th century democratic position was fanatically pro states' rights.  Republicans were the first to levy an income tax.

The two parties did not switch ideologies. Republicans/Conservatives saw black people as equals. Democrat/liberals moved to create a welfare/nanny state, (in exchange for votes), and it continues to this day.....................in fact, it's now on steroids, under Obama. Conservatives did, and still do, believe in limited government...................as per the Constitution. Liberals reject the constitution. Unless of course, it's convenient toward their argument.

Quote from: kramarat on July 31, 2012, 03:46:03 PM
The two parties did not switch ideologies.

Then explain why the south is Republican, when it was once Democratic.

Explain why the Northeast is now Democratic, when it was once Republican.

Explain why Republicans now support states' rights, when they once supported a strong national government.

Explain why all confederate sympathizers are conservatives.

Explain why JFK supported civil rights, while Nixon opposed integration and ran on a party platform to appeal to his base[/b].

Explain why LBJ, the most liberal president in our history, passed the farthest reaching civil rights legislation in our history.

Explain why Andrew Johnson was a firm believer in states' rights.

Explain why the Southern Manifesto was signed entirely by conservative states such as Mississipi, and used strict constitutionalists and states' rights arguments.

Explain why the Klan is most prominent in conservative states.

QuoteRepublicans/Conservatives saw black people as equals. Democrat/liberals moved to create a welfare/nanny state, (in exchange for votes),

Newsflash: welfare and civil rights were heavily interconnected.  You'll find that the same societies who opposed slavery in the late 19th century were also the first to make a serious push for social welfare.

Quoteand it continues to this day.....................in fact, it's now on steroids, under Obama. Conservatives did, and still do, believe in limited government...................as per the Constitution. Liberals reject the constitution. Unless of course, it's convenient toward their argument.

Wait, so by your logic, the confederacy was liberal.  Yet the confederacy held a fanatical hatred of big government; huh?

QuoteThen explain why the south is Republican, when it was once Democratic.

Many would attribute it to the Southern Strategy, popularized by Nixon, but I don't see that as completely accurate. The fact of the matter, is that racist democrats, upon seeing that the left was attempting to take ownership of the civil rights movement, either left the party, or voted republican.

QuoteExplain why the Northeast is now Democratic, when it was once Republican.

Once the civil war was won, and particularly after the civil rights act was passed, many republicans bought into the lie, that liberals were the good guys. Short answer: Feel good, liberal bullshit.

QuoteExplain why all confederate sympathizers are conservatives.

See #1. They are former democrat racists, that left the party in disgust. They are not true conservatives.

QuoteExplain why JFK supported civil rights, while Nixon opposed integration and ran on a party platform to appeal to his base[/b].

For votes.

As for the rest of your questions............the answers are in the link I provided earlier. Read up on history. I don't have time to be your teacher.

Hint: You are mistaking the votes of pissed off southern democrats, (for republicans), as conservative votes. They are not one and the same. They are opposition votes against their own party, a party that they have become disgusted with. That does NOT make them conservatives.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 01, 2012, 11:59:42 AM
Then explain why the south is Republican, when it was once Democratic.

Explain why the Northeast is now Democratic, when it was once Republican.

Simple to attract business to the South it was necessary that they prove that "the bad old days" of segregation were over. The simplest way of doing that would be to leave the party of Segregation - the Democrats. The NorthEast is Democratic because they replaced the old party machines with new Liberal macines, the purpose being the same to buy votes with government dollars. Of course they were more sophisticated than someone going down to party headquarters and receiving a handout. Now you went to the welfare office

QuoteExplain why Republicans now support states' rights, when they once supported a strong national government.

When have Republicans ever supported a strong Central government. If you ever read a history book, as opposed to just listening to talking points, you'd know that the Democrats were usually the party supporting a strong federal government. In the ante-bellum period they were the ones who supported such laws as the Fugitive Slave Act, and unprecedented expansion of federal power. During the New Deal period the poor south supported the federal government because it was federal policy to transfer money from the rich north to the poor south. And of course, every time the South's policy toward the Negro was challenged first during the Civil War and then in the 60's suddenly they became big supporters of States Rights. They stopped because the South got richer, and suddenly they were the ones paying the taxes.

QuoteExplain why all confederate sympathizers are conservatives.

Go look up the definition of "conservation" and stop using it as a fucking synonym for "reactionary". No words don't mean whatever you a-hole leftist want them to mean.

QuoteExplain why JFK supported civil rights, while Nixon opposed integration and ran on a party platform to appeal to his base[/b].

What makes you think JFK supported Civil Rights? And I'm not in love with the idea of integration. I've never understood why the idea that a school, for example being better if a few white kids are in it, isn't racist on it's face. I understand their reasoning - their facilities wouldn't be shortchanged if whites were also required to use the same facilities. But that doesn't mean I like it. And I've always felt there was an ulterior motive to the push for integration.

QuoteExplain why LBJ, the most liberal president in our history, passed the farthest reaching civil rights legislation in our history.

Johnson DID NOT past the Civil Rights legislation, the exact same Republicans who had been fighting to pass Civil Rights legislation for 100 years, passed it, with the help of northern Liberal Democrats (credit where credit is due). Check the roll call on the vote. THE MAJORITY OF DEMOCRAT OPPOSED CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION. The northern liberals, located in cities that were becoming filled with minorities, sold out the same people they had supported for years. The media - being they lying sacks of shit that they are - gave far too much of the credit to the Dems. BTW The farthest reaching Civil Rights Legislation in our history was the 13thm 14th and 15th Amendments - and REPUBLICANS passed those.

QuoteExplain why Andrew Johnson was a firm believer in states' rights.

Because he was a Tennessee DEMOCRAT, but a unionist, who was added to the ticket as a bipartisan gesture.

QuoteExplain why the Southern Manifesto was signed entirely by conservative states such as Mississipi, and used strict constitutionalists and states' rights arguments.

Because the South which was glad to suck off the Federal teat, always raised the fake banner of "States Rights" when ever the issue of blacks was raised.

QuoteExplain why the Klan is most prominent in conservative states.

Like Obama's Illinois, or Pennsylvania, or Ohio or Indiana, where klan membership number in the hundreds of thousands in the 20's. Like I said, you really need to brush up on your history, Start here, you should trust PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/flood-klan/

QuoteNewsflash: welfare and civil rights were heavily interconnected.  You'll find that the same societies who opposed slavery in the late 19th century were also the first to make a serious push for social welfare.

Pushing for Social Welfare does not equate to pushing for centralized government. You can't simply co-opt every movement for social improvement into "Liberalism".

QuoteWait, so by your logic, the confederacy was liberal.  Yet the confederacy held a fanatical hatred of big government; huh?

Sure they were. They were all in favor of people working while other's enjoyed the fruits of those peoples labor. Sort of like today's liberals claiming they have a "right" to the fruits of other peoples labor.

Quote from: kramarat on August 01, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
Many would attribute it to the Southern Strategy, popularized by Nixon, but I don't see that as completely accurate. The fact of the matter, is that racist democrats, upon seeing that the left was attempting to take ownership of the civil rights movement, either left the party, or voted republican.

Does this not imply that racists fled to the republican party, and presumably remain there?

Quote
 
Once the civil war was won, and particularly after the civil rights act was passed, many republicans bought into the lie, that liberals were the good guys. Short answer: Feel good, liberal bullshit.

So everyone magically turned their political ideology 180 degrees because they believed liberals were the "good guys"?

How about the south?  As we all know, the south has not the best race history, and it is conservative.  For your theory to work, the south would have to have been liberal once.  The confederacy was liberal??  Why did the south turn conservative?

Quote
See #1. They are former democrat racists, that left the party in disgust. They are not true conservatives.

Wait; so we know democrats are liberals today.  According to you, they were always liberal.  Yet now, you're arguing that racists left the democratic party in disgust.  Does this not imply that the democratic party turned anti-racist, and therefore that my party switching claim (supported by the vast majority of historians) is correct?

Quote
For votes.

So what?  JFK was a liberal, so he would do whatever would appeal to liberals.  That civil rights appealed to them merely supports my point.  Nixon was a conservative, and a lying sack of shit, so he would do whatever a lying sack of shit would do to appeal to conservatives.  That racism appealed to them merely supports my point.


---------

Mdgiles, I'll get to your own oppositions soon.  But have you ever wondered why you and kramarat come up with entirely different and ridiculously complex rationalizations for why the two parties switched demographics yet magically remained the same?

QuoteDoes this not imply that racists fled to the republican party, and presumably remain there?

No. It doesn't imply it, it states it very clearly. They are not conservatives, nor are RINOs. Some joined the republican party, others remain democrat and vote republican. They are not voting for something. They are voting against something. They couldn't care less about conservative principles.

QuoteSo everyone magically turned their political ideology 180 degrees because they believed liberals were the "good guys"?

How about the south?  As we all know, the south has not the best race history, and it is conservative.  For your theory to work, the south would have to have been liberal once.  The confederacy was liberal??  Why did the south turn conservative?

Modern liberalism within the US didn't get kicked off until after the New Deal.

Yes, the south was made up of primarily democrat conservatives that wanted to both keep, and expand the practice of keeping black slaves.

People didn't "turn" from conservative to liberal. The New Deal was the beginning of the march toward modern liberal socialism. The beginning of people thinking that the government's role was to insure that we were all safe, socially equal, and now, with Obama..........economic equals.

QuoteWait; so we know democrats are liberals today.  According to you, they were always liberal.  Yet now, you're arguing that racists left the democratic party in disgust.  Does this not imply that the democratic party turned anti-racist, and therefore that my party switching claim (supported by the vast majority of historians) is correct?

No. Southern democrats were conservatives. The democrat party never turned anti-racist. They merely pretended to, otherwise the party would have evaporated. They turned black people into victims, convincing them that they could do nothing on their own, and that they needed the kind, tolerant democrat party to make the way for them. Just another way to keep blacks in their place, and secure their votes. Democrats have never looked at blacks as equals. That continues to this day. They bring in people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for political expediency.................same with women, same with gays, etc. They care about no one but themselves, and holding onto power.

JFK was not a great president. He was good looking, charismatic, everyone liked him, and he got shot. It doesn't make his policies good.

Once again, I know you have a lot of respect for what we say, and I'm assuming that you're sitting in front of a computer. Please read up on history before you post.

One more thing: I've noticed that in almost every one of your responses, (throughout the forum), you demonstrate your basic ignorance, by assuming that conservatives and republicans are one in the same. You also seem to believe that democrats and liberals are one in the same.

Allow me to clear things up for you......................and I'm talking modern times, not civil war era, definitions. Liberal, democrat, conservative, and republican, are 4 different things, not 2.

Liberal and conservative refer to philisophical ideologies in regard to the role of government in our lives. There are other things, but that is the primary difference.

Democrats lie to their liberal base to hold onto power in Washington.

Republicans lie to their conservative base to hold onto power in Washington.

Liberals tend to believe that the democrats actually represent them.

Conservatives know better, than to think the same of republicans. Hence the effort to get conservatives in Washington, the Tea Party, etc. We know and recognize that our run of the mill politicians, (from both sides), are liars. Hope this helps.

QuoteNo. Southern democrats were conservatives.

Many. But their were also many reactionaries. To some it wasn't a question of slow and measured change with a healthy respect for those things that had been tried and worked (i.e., Conservatives); but an attempt to return to an idealized past (i.e., Reactionaries). Just off the top of my head I would guess the reactionaries stayed with the Dems, that might account for they're continually acting as if it was still the New Deal 30's.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 02, 2012, 12:02:50 PM
Many. But their were also many reactionaries. To some it wasn't a question of slow and measured change with a healthy respect for those things that had been tried and worked (i.e., Conservatives); but an attempt to return to an idealized past (i.e., Reactionaries). Just off the top of my head I would guess the reactionaries stayed with the Dems, that might account for they're continually acting as if it was still the New Deal 30's.

True, but I think the very meaning of liberal, conservative, democrat, republican has changed since the days of the civil war. I think one of the things we all tend to forget, (which you would never know, by listening to the news or the people in Washington), is that today, the vast majority of Americans fall, just slightly, to the right or left of direct center. I get along fine with people that tend to vote democrat. They aren't radicals. Quite frankly, I think Obama, and his particular brand of politics, took everyone by surprise. His presidency in no way resembles what he said on his 08 campaign.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 01, 2012, 11:59:42 AM
Then explain why the south is Republican, when it was once Democratic.

Explain why the Northeast is now Democratic, when it was once Republican.

Explain why Republicans now support states' rights, when they once supported a strong national government.

Explain why all confederate sympathizers are conservatives.

Explain why JFK supported civil rights, while Nixon opposed integration and ran on a party platform to appeal to his base[/b].

Explain why LBJ, the most liberal president in our history, passed the farthest reaching civil rights legislation in our history.

Explain why Andrew Johnson was a firm believer in states' rights.

Explain why the Southern Manifesto was signed entirely by conservative states such as Mississipi, and used strict constitutionalists and states' rights arguments.

Explain why the Klan is most prominent in conservative states.

Newsflash: welfare and civil rights were heavily interconnected.  You'll find that the same societies who opposed slavery in the late 19th century were also the first to make a serious push for social welfare.

Wait, so by your logic, the confederacy was liberal.  Yet the confederacy held a fanatical hatred of big government; huh?

What drivel. Prepare to learn, butthead.

The Northeast is now largely a Democrat enclave because of urbanization, which has taken place most quickly in the Northeast. A notable exception is obviously New Hampshire, the "Live Free Or DIE!!" state, where there are literally no large urban areas. (New Hampshire's largest city, Manchester, boasts a population of barely 110,000.) Democrats comprise the party of "gimme, gimme," and will always win the largely urbanized states like New York and California.

The Republican party opposed slavery, and came into being for that purpose. The Republican party espoused federal power for the purpose of eliminating slavery, and for no other purpose. It followed that Lincoln's party opposed secession by any state, which led to the Civil War. SHAME on those evil Republicans!

Explain to me, sir, why you undoubtedly support the federal government's "right" to impose the existence of gay marriage on the several states.

All confederate sympathizers are conservatives? Really? Where do you get this shit, or do you just make it up as you go along? GIVE ME JUST ONE EXAMPLE. Robert Byrd was a Confederate sympathizer. George Wallace was a Confederate sympathizer. Orval Faubus was a Confederate sympathizer. All were Democrats, as were practically ALL the opponents of racial desegregation. Do you want me to go on?

John Fitzgerald Kennedy, while a senator representing Massachusetts, voted against the 1957 Civil Rights Act. During his brief presidency, he signed absolutely NOTHING into law that forwarded civil rights one inch. So what the hell are you talking about?

Lyndon Baines Johnson isn't even CLOSE to being the most liberal or progressive president in recent history. That crown belongs to our current asshole-in-chief, and you know it AND love it. But was LBJ, or any other Democrat, a benevolent lover of minorities? Not exactly. The love has more to do with votes, I think.

• "I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side. ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

Robert C. Byrd, US Senator from West Virginia, former "Grand Kleagle" in the Ku Klux Klan, who served more than 51 years in the Senate, after a six-year stint in the US House of Representatives.

• "These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days, and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness."

Lyndon Baines Johnson, US Senator from Texas

• "I'll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years."

Lyndon Baines Johnson, President of the United States

Ah, fresh young Democrat voices.

I don't have to, and don't want to, explain Andrew Johnson's failed policies to anyone. He was Lincoln's vice president for a year, and was Lincoln's choice only out of political expedience. If it matters to you at all, you might note that Johnson, an abysmal failure as a president and the first president impeached by the House of Representatives (of course, Slick Willie was #2), was a Democrat. Why am I not surprised?

Your entertainment value has long since lapsed. If you honestly think you've actually made some point in the remainder of your screed, box it up and stick it out as another post. I'm too tired and have too much to do to blow any more time on this charade.

Quote from: tbone0106 on August 02, 2012, 04:02:04 PM
What drivel. Prepare to learn, butthead.

The Northeast is now largely a Democrat enclave because of urbanization, which has taken place most quickly in the Northeast. A notable exception is obviously New Hampshire, the "Live Free Or DIE!!" state, where there are literally no large urban areas. (New Hampshire's largest city, Manchester, boasts a population of barely 110,000.) Democrats comprise the party of "gimme, gimme," and will always win the largely urbanized states like New York and California.

The Republican party opposed slavery, and came into being for that purpose. The Republican party espoused federal power for the purpose of eliminating slavery, and for no other purpose. It followed that Lincoln's party opposed secession by any state, which led to the Civil War. SHAME on those evil Republicans!

Explain to me, sir, why you undoubtedly support the federal government's "right" to impose the existence of gay marriage on the several states.

All confederate sympathizers are conservatives? Really? Where do you get this shit, or do you just make it up as you go along? GIVE ME JUST ONE EXAMPLE. Robert Byrd was a Confederate sympathizer. George Wallace was a Confederate sympathizer. Orval Faubus was a Confederate sympathizer. All were Democrats, as were practically ALL the opponents of racial desegregation. Do you want me to go on?

John Fitzgerald Kennedy, while a senator representing Massachusetts, voted against the 1957 Civil Rights Act. During his brief presidency, he signed absolutely NOTHING into law that forwarded civil rights one inch. So what the hell are you talking about?

Lyndon Baines Johnson isn't even CLOSE to being the most liberal or progressive president in recent history. That crown belongs to our current asshole-in-chief, and you know it AND love it. But was LBJ, or any other Democrat, a benevolent lover of minorities? Not exactly. The love has more to do with votes, I think.

• "I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side. ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

Robert C. Byrd, US Senator from West Virginia, former "Grand Kleagle" in the Ku Klux Klan, who served more than 51 years in the Senate, after a six-year stint in the US House of Representatives.

• "These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days, and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness."

Lyndon Baines Johnson, US Senator from Texas

• "I'll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years."

Lyndon Baines Johnson, President of the United States

Ah, fresh young Democrat voices.

I don't have to, and don't want to, explain Andrew Johnson's failed policies to anyone. He was Lincoln's vice president for a year, and was Lincoln's choice only out of political expedience. If it matters to you at all, you might note that Johnson, an abysmal failure as a president and the first president impeached by the House of Representatives (of course, Slick Willie was #2), was a Democrat. Why am I not surprised?

Your entertainment value has long since lapsed. If you honestly think you've actually made some point in the remainder of your screed, box it up and stick it out as another post. I'm too tired and have too much to do to blow any more time on this charade.

Great post! Oh, the truth.

You forgot one other quote, and I'm paraphrasing: " Just think, not too long ago, that boy would have been serving us drinks."- Former president Bill Clinton, in reference to Obama. (2007)

Quote from: kramarat on August 02, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
No. It doesn't imply it, it states it very clearly. They are not conservatives, nor are RINOs. Some joined the republican party, others remain democrat and vote republican. They are not voting for something. They are voting against something. They couldn't care less about conservative principles.

So then why do they win votes?  Why have white supremacists received up to 44% of the popular vote in various conservative states?  Why aren't these noble party-of-Lincoln conservatives expelling the Evil Liberal Racists to the democratic party?

Quote
Modern liberalism within the US didn't get kicked off until after the New Deal.

Yes, the south was made up of primarily democrat conservatives that wanted to both keep, and expand the practice of keeping black slaves.

My point.

Quote
People didn't "turn" from conservative to liberal. The New Deal was the beginning of the march toward modern liberal socialism. The beginning of people thinking that the government's role was to insure that we were all safe, socially equal, and now, with Obama..........economic equals.

And without this new movement, the civil rights movement would never have gathered momentum.  How many small government, southern conservatives marched with MLK?

Quote
No. Southern democrats were conservatives.The democrat party never turned anti-racist. They merely pretended to, otherwise the party would have evaporated. They turned black people into victims, convincing them that they could do nothing on their own, and that they needed the kind, tolerant democrat party to make the way for them. Just another way to keep blacks in their place, and secure their votes. Democrats have never looked at blacks as equals. That continues to this day. They bring in people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for political expediency.................same with women, same with gays, etc. They care about no one but themselves, and holding onto power.

My point.

Quote
JFK was not a great president. He was good looking, charismatic, everyone liked him, and he got shot. It doesn't make his policies good.

I'm not getting into a prolonged debate on the accomplishments and failures of JFK's presidency.  This doesn't refute my point that JFK supported civil rights, while Nixon made a policy out of opposing them.  And the former needed liberal votes, while the latter needed conservative votes, which simply proves my point yet again.

Quote
Once again, I know you have a lot of respect for what we say, and I'm assuming that you're sitting in front of a computer. Please read up on history before you post.

*clap clap clap*

Quote
One more thing: I've noticed that in almost every one of your responses, (throughout the forum), you demonstrate your basic ignorance, by assuming that conservatives and republicans are one in the same. You also seem to believe that democrats and liberals are one in the same.

What the fuck have you been stuffing in your eyelids?

Me:

    Hint hint wink wink; the two parties switched ideologies.




I stated precisely the opposite.  Your reply:


The two parties did not switch ideologies. Republicans/Conservatives saw black people as equals. Democrat/liberals moved to create a welfare/nanny state, (in exchange for votes), and it continues to this day

Quote
Democrats lie to their liberal base to hold onto power in Washington.

Republicans lie to their conservative base to hold onto power in Washington.

Liberals tend to believe that the democrats actually represent them.

Conservatives know better, than to think the same of republicans. Hence the effort to get conservatives in Washington, the Tea Party, etc. We know and recognize that our run of the mill politicians, (from both sides), are liars. Hope this helps.

I don't think the statistics support this.  You all still worship the "conservative" Reagan, who performed everything you conservatives hate with a passion.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 10, 2012, 03:42:22 PM
So then why do they win votes?  Why have white supremacists received up to 44% of the popular vote in various conservative states?  Why aren't these noble party-of-Lincoln conservatives expelling the Evil Liberal Racists to the democratic party?

My point.

And without this new movement, the civil rights movement would never have gathered momentum.  How many small government, southern conservatives marched with MLK?

My point.

I'm not getting into a prolonged debate on the accomplishments and failures of JFK's presidency.  This doesn't refute my point that JFK supported civil rights, while Nixon made a policy out of opposing them.  And the former needed liberal votes, while the latter needed conservative votes, which simply proves my point yet again.

*clap clap clap*

What the fuck have you been stuffing in your eyelids?

Me:

    Hint hint wink wink; the two parties switched ideologies.




I stated precisely the opposite.  Your reply:


The two parties did not switch ideologies. Republicans/Conservatives saw black people as equals. Democrat/liberals moved to create a welfare/nanny state, (in exchange for votes), and it continues to this day

I don't think the statistics support this.  You all still worship the "conservative" Reagan, who performed everything you conservatives hate with a passion.

You are as mixed up as fish.

I'm sorry you didn't pay attention in school.................or maybe the truth just wasn't taught. Either way, I don't have time to educate you.

The facts are out there. If I want emotive responses that aren't based in reality, I'll feed my wife a few glasses of wine, and listen to her call me an asshole.

Quote from: kramarat on August 10, 2012, 08:30:35 PM
You are as mixed up as fish.

I'm sorry you didn't pay attention in school.................or maybe the truth just wasn't taught. Either way, I don't have time to educate you.

The facts are out there. If I want emotive responses that aren't based in reality, I'll feed my wife a few glasses of wine, and listen to her call me an asshole.

No need to bluff superior knowledge, kramarat; you already conceded the argument:

Quote
    Yes, the south was made up of primarily democrat conservatives that wanted to both keep, and expand the practice of keeping black slaves.