Quote from: Solar on July 21, 2012, 10:19:06 AM
I am indifferent on the issue

Then You're indifferent on the murder of a civilian to save another civilian. That's wrong.

Quote from: Solar on July 21, 2012, 10:19:06 AM
Lets take the ass hole that murdered 12 people in the theater, had someone shot him after he killed his first victim, an accidentally killed an innocent bystander as well, what would you say about that?
After all, obviously he saved 11 others from being murdered.

I'd say that someone shot an armed man that intended on doing harm to others. But I would still hope the person had enough care for human life that He or she didn't feel "indifferent" about those who are to slow, or in the way, when pulling the trigger.   

See, solar, this is about trying Your best not to hurt civilians when destroying the enemy. Dropping bombs on civilians isn't doing that, and when You feel indifferent about such things You tend to do more harm in the process.

Im not saying that civilians wont die in war, Im not saying that civilians wont die in exchanges like the one You speak of, Im saying that people should feel that protecting innocent life is utmost priority one, and then, if You fail, at least You gave it Your all.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on July 21, 2012, 11:03:18 PM

Then You're indifferent on the murder of a civilian to save another civilian. That's wrong.


I'd say that someone shot an armed man that intended on doing harm to others. But I would still hope the person had enough care for human life that He or she didn't feel "indifferent" about those who are to slow, or in the way, when pulling the trigger.   

See, solar, this is about trying Your best not to hurt civilians when destroying the enemy. Dropping bombs on civilians isn't doing that, and when You feel indifferent about such things You tend to do more harm in the process.

Im not saying that civilians wont die in war, Im not saying that civilians wont die in exchanges like the one You speak of, Im saying that people should feel that protecting innocent life is utmost priority one, and then, if You fail, at least You gave it Your all.

In our culture, protecting the innocent is how most of us view life, but what you don't seem to understand, is the exact opposite exists in our enemies mind.
Muscum see death as an honor, collateral damage is seen as sacrifice of the greater good.
Using children during Fatwa, is not only acceptable, but a duty to serve Allah.

When this is the mindset of the enemy, there are no innocents, the entire area is a war zone, don't expect a Soldier to make the distinction that may cost him and his fellow soldiers their lives.

And about the shooter, when you have a piece in your hand and you're focused on taking the target down, the last thing you want to do is miss.
Unless you've ever been undr this kind of pressure, you will never understand it.
Hyper focus creates a kind of tunnel vision, where only the target is visible, which also keeps you from being distracted.

Quote from: Solar on July 22, 2012, 05:51:54 AM
In our culture, protecting the innocent is how most of us view life, but what you don't seem to understand, is the exact opposite exists in our enemies mind.

I obviously understand that, Ive mentioned it, but that doesn't mean I condone the actions and wish for us to repeat them.

What You dont seem to get is that winning a war by recreating bad action isn't really winning at all.

Quote from: Solar on July 22, 2012, 05:51:54 AM
there are no innocents, the entire area is a war zone

I disagree. There are still LOTS of civilians/non combatants.

Quote from: Solar on July 22, 2012, 05:51:54 AM
the last thing you want to do is miss.

And You certainly don't want to be "indifferent" about the civilians around You when pulling the trigger.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on July 22, 2012, 10:48:35 AM

I obviously understand that, Ive mentioned it, but that doesn't mean I condone the actions and wish for us to repeat them.

What You dont seem to get is that winning a war by recreating bad action isn't really winning at all.

I once said you seem to be basing your picture of warfare on some movie you saw once. You seem to believe it's far cleaner than it is. Just as you seem to believe you have time to make minor distinctions. 

QuoteI disagree. There are still LOTS of civilians/non combatants.

True. Now tell us how you go about separating them from the hostiles in the middle of a firefight, without either ending up dead yourself or getting - what are hopefully - your friends killed.

QuoteAnd You certainly don't want to be "indifferent" about the civilians around You when pulling the trigger.

Sometimes it's impossible not to be "indifferent". There are cost involved with hesitation.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 22, 2012, 11:07:43 AM
I once said you seem to be basing your picture of warfare on some movie you saw once. You seem to believe it's far cleaner than it is. Just as you seem to believe you have time to make minor distinctions.  True. Now tell us how you go about separating them from the hostiles in the middle of a firefight, without either ending up dead yourself or getting - what are hopefully - your friends killed.Sometimes it's impossible not to be "indifferent". There are cost involved with hesitation.

It's not impossible to not be indifferent. You should always care for civilian life in combat. That's one of the biggies that's supposed to separate us from our enemies. 

We are not indifferent to innocent life, We risk our own lives for innocent life, that's far from indifference. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on July 22, 2012, 11:15:28 AM


It's not impossible to not be indifferent. You should always care for civilian life in combat. That's one of the biggies that's supposed to separate us from our enemies. 

We are not indifferent to innocent life, We risk our own lives for innocent life, that's far from indifference.

Spoken like someone that hasn't been within 1000 miles of actual combat.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on July 22, 2012, 11:15:28 AM


It's not impossible to not be indifferent. You should always care for civilian life in combat. That's one of the biggies that's supposed to separate us from our enemies. 

We are not indifferent to innocent life, We risk our own lives for innocent life, that's far from indifference.

Fish,
You not only ask the impossible, but you don't seem to recognize how impossible it is. Especially in a situation where it's almost impossible to tell the good guys from the bad guys. How do you differentiate, in a part of the world, where almost no adult male, leaves the house unless they're packing? Where the women are dressed in such a manner, that you have no idea if they even are women?

Quote from: hfishjr81 on July 22, 2012, 10:48:35 AM

I obviously understand that, Ive mentioned it, but that doesn't mean I condone the actions and wish for us to repeat them.

What You dont seem to get is that winning a war by recreating bad action isn't really winning at all.


I disagree. There are still LOTS of civilians/non combatants.


And You certainly don't want to be "indifferent" about the civilians around You when pulling the trigger.

It's views like yours that loses wars.
Read Sun Tzu and learn about how the enemy views war.
Sub Tzu, The Art of War.

But aside the fact, if you allow the enemy to use civilians as shields, they will only escalate the tactic.
Better to save non combatants by ending their use the first time.
An enemy that doesn't respect their own innocent, should no be allowed to win the war.
Yet you want us to lose?

Quote from: Solar on July 22, 2012, 12:04:12 PM
It's views like yours that loses wars.

It's views like Yours that kill civilians.

Quote from: Solar on July 22, 2012, 12:04:12 PM
An enemy that doesn't respect their own innocent, should no be allowed to win the war.
Yet you want us to lose?

An enemy that doesn't respect innocence shouldn't be allowed to win the war. 

What is the proper military purpose in war?

Quote from: Solar on July 22, 2012, 12:04:12 PM
It's views like yours that loses wars.
Read Sun Tzu and learn about how the enemy views war.
Sub Tzu, The Art of War.

But aside the fact, if you allow the enemy to use civilians as shields, they will only escalate the tactic.
Better to save non combatants by ending their use the first time.
An enemy that doesn't respect their own innocent, should no be allowed to win the war.
Yet you want us to lose?

Good point. What happens if the first time the enemy attempts to use human shields, you just mow down everyone - including the enemy attempting the tactic. I'd say they'd probably give that one up as a non starter.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on July 22, 2012, 12:09:34 PM
It's views like Yours that kill civilians.

Civilians are ALWAYS a casualty of war.  Always have been and always will be.

That's not always a bad thing either.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 22, 2012, 11:46:38 AM
Fish,
You not only ask the impossible, but you don't seem to recognize how impossible it is. Especially in a situation where it's almost impossible to tell the good guys from the bad guys. How do you differentiate, in a part of the world, where almost no adult male, leaves the house unless they're packing? Where the women are dressed in such a manner, that you have no idea if they even are women?

Im not saying it's easy, im just saying its not impossible. Im also saying that just because it's not easy You shouldn't become indifferent to the death of innocent life.

Quote from: rich_t on July 22, 2012, 12:10:34 PM
What is the proper military purpose in war?

Beat me to it.
I wonder what he would do if it was he, fighting for his own life and that of his buddies, and all he had available was a hand grenade.
Would he sacrifice himself as well as his buddies to save one possible innocent life?
Then there is the question of innocence, are he and his buddies fighting to protect innocent lives at home, and is the potential innocent civilian really all that innocent?

He has never been in the situation before obviously, and for the sake of his fellow Soldiers, I thank God he never was in that position.

Quote from: rich_t on July 22, 2012, 12:10:34 PM
What is the proper military purpose in war?

To Win.

-Dr Watt