To those who think secession will never happen you need to learn from history. Secession, or more accurately, division, is an inevitable outcome in country's where governments bite off more than they can chew. The Roman Empire is the perfect example; the empire in decline had to formally split into two, The Eastern and Western Roman Empires. And then the Western Empire declined and all of the individual countries and city states of Medieval Europe formed. I would not bet against something similar having to happen in the United States. Globally, we have an economic, political and military presence that is unsustainable and too much for the federal government to handle effectively on it's own.

Just look at Spain now. Spain is in horrible shape economically, and look what's happening, Catalonia is trying to secede from Spain. Or look at the EU as a whole, many citizens of the countries comprising the EU want to leave it. Secession is an inevitable outcome of concentrated power screwing the people over.

Secession may not happen like in 1860, but my bet is that it will happen eventually in some manifestation. The federal government is on a course to where it will lose all of its power to do anything, and any power it has remaining will be pathetically nominal. When the economy gets so bad, perhaps if and when the dollar collapses, that is when you will see calls for secession become mainstream and perhaps, a reality. In the event of massive crises, the normal and suitable reaction is to compartmentalize in order to solve the problem. Individual states will see the problem as external, something foreign to their state and will want to secede so that they can be free from the external problem. Unfortunately, the federal government is the problem and it acts externally from the will of the states. States rights have been eroded so much ever since the inception of the constitution. State are powerless to fix the problem and care for the concerns of their citizens because of the federal government which has been corrupted by what in my view is an illegitimate and unjust concentration of power.

I support secession in principle, how it comes about is a more delicate matter.

Look at this country with an honest pair of eyes. We have two Americas existing in one, this is the problem. Half the country wants to move in one direction, and the other half wants to move in the opposite direction. There can be no compromise here because the positions of each half are largely mutually exclusive. You cannot have a government that simultaneously is and is not a welfare state. Things are not "getting done" in Washington not because politicians are lazy, but because there can be no compromise with two factions like this! So in the end, if we want to exist in one nation, half of the country is going to have to get taken to the woodshed every so often at election time, and get someone in power who pushes their ideas, and then at another election cycle the opposing side gets their politicians in power and does the same thing to the other side. You cannot govern a society like this; we are too divided, and to be quite frank we should be permitted to separate for both our benefit.

Do you think social liberals would love to see social conservatives, who they consider backward and stupid form their own country and stop hindering the "progress" they adore? I certainly think so.

Do you think social conservatives would love to see social liberals, who they consider deluded and morally depraved form their own country and stop poisoning the society they love? I certainly think so.

Can the same be said economically and politically? Yes! One side favors a more socialist system with centralized federal power that can manage social welfare programs. The other side favors free market economics, with decentralized power where states maintain certain rights.

So do tell, what is holding this country together? Right now, I don't really know the answer.

Wait, so Obama is anti-american for (supposedly) not being born here, but people who give up on their nation and try to secede from it aren't? 

Somebody tell me again that confederate sympathizers don't reside primarily on the Right.

The wealthiest in this country have been loopholing their way out of the majority of their taxes for years, asking them to step up just like we, the middle class, do, isn't "taking their money away",  like many repubs are saying, it's expecting them to pay their way, instead of us shouldering the debt like we've been doing. But this has lead us here. Our ability to see this problem and vote to try to change it. Succeeding will not fix the problems, however, if anything it will worsen things for more people just to satisfy the wealthy few.

I do think we will see some very tough times ahead, if not just because the republicans are traumatized over their recent loss, though with money buying politicians on all sides I do believe we are in for a rude awakening eventually. Our social divisions that have been used to keep us from agreeing thus far has allowed much stolen from you and me, and when the time comes we will either decide to fight together for whats right or be held to debt by thieves that hold us captive by our own individual dogmas.. I hope the Libs wake up to Obamas corporatist ways, just as I hope the Conservs stop clinging to their lies and fear mongering, so maybe we might actually have a chance at a better future for all sides involved. 

How dare the "rich" want to hold onto more of what they own ans worked hard for!

Source: IRS

Quote from: Darth Fife on November 13, 2012, 08:28:54 PM


Source: IRS

Fare share indeed...

Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 13, 2012, 08:27:28 PM
How dare the "rich" want to hold onto more of what they own ans worked hard for!

How dare the rich resort to fear tactics and temper tantrums to try and keep from paying equal portions for the good of our nation. 

"And so, here are the tax percentages that each quintile actually pays as a percent of their true disposable incomes assuming everyone needs at least $2,000 a month just to get by;"




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-r-talbott/rich-pay-taxes_b_1873392.html

Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 13, 2012, 09:00:37 PM

How dare the rich resort to fear tactics and temper tantrums to try and keep from paying equal portions for the good of our nation. 

"And so, here are the tax percentages that each quintile actually pays as a percent of their true disposable incomes assuming everyone needs at least $2,000 a month just to get by;"




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-r-talbott/rich-pay-taxes_b_1873392.html

That is hilarious!

Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 13, 2012, 09:00:37 PM

How dare the rich resort to fear tactics and temper tantrums to try and keep from paying equal portions for the good of our nation. 

"And so, here are the tax percentages that each quintile actually pays as a percent of their true disposable incomes assuming everyone needs at least $2,000 a month just to get by;"




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-r-talbott/rich-pay-taxes_b_1873392.html

Totally irrelevant! The U.S. Tax code isn't based on "disposable income".

However it does point out an important fact. No matter how high you raise the tax rate on "Milionaires" and "Billionaires" the tax paid as a percentage of disposable income will not change on the lower quintiles!

Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 13, 2012, 09:02:19 PM



That is hilarious!

He is trying to be serious, which makes it sooooo much funnier...

Quote from: Darth Fife on November 13, 2012, 09:08:45 PM
Totally irrelevant! The U.S. Tax code isn't based on "disposable income".

However it does point out an important fact. No matter how high you raise the tax rate on "Milionaires" and "Billionaires" the tax paid as a percentage of disposable income will not change on the lower quintiles!

I disagree. I believe that its very relevant. Just because the "U.S. tax code isn't based on disposable income" doesnt mean that the facts are any less relevant. The lower and middle class are paying beyond their means in relation in order to sustain a "bailout" friendly socialism for the ultra wealthy and based on that fact the relevance pertaining to equal pay in accordance to disposable income certainly shines through.

Though we're not talking about simply"taking money" were talking about leveling the playing field a little. Just because the poor cant handle more taxes doesn't mean the rich should be let of the hook federally. In fact the contrary makes more sense. Our nation is in trouble, the really wealthy can sustain their lavish lifestyles and pay a little more back to a country that's allowed them their opportunities. It's not unfair or to much to ask, its the right thing to do, especially when you look at the average Americans wallet and the amounts we're already shoveling to big businesses, not to mention taxes payed for day to day necessities. 

Quote from: taxed on November 13, 2012, 09:27:50 PM
He is trying to be serious, which makes it sooooo much funnier...

Hello Taxi. Hows things been for you of late?   


Amazing seeing all those "center right" folks get out there to rock the vote this election, lol.. They sure made their voices heard... Certainly pertaining to the rich and their ability to pay a bit more.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 13, 2012, 09:33:30 PM

Hello Taxi. Hows things been for you of late?   


Amazing seeing all those "center right" folks get out there to rock the vote this election, lol.. They sure made their voices heard... Certainly pertaining to the rich and their ability to pay a bit more.

You are destroying my country.  Congratulations.

When Obamao succeeds in wiping out the "Bush tax Cuts" this coming year the middle class will be paying more of their "fair share" as well.....

Thats About 10 Billion out of the economy, coupled with the rising gas prices because of Obamao's idiotic or non existing "energy policy"

The recession (which never ended really) will just continue on.

Thanks again dummies.


Billy

Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 13, 2012, 09:33:30 PM

Hello Taxi. Hows things been for you of late?   


Amazing seeing all those "center right" folks get out there to rock the vote this election, lol.. They sure made their voices heard... Certainly pertaining to the rich and their ability to pay a bit more.

Center right voted for Obama?