LIB-ertarian Johnson has Lib Meltdown

[jrodefeld]

I'll wait for the Readers Digest edition, without the "if" scenarios and ravings from "experts" known only to themselves.

There is nothing to support my position, drooler? World Trade Center wasn't enough?

Your position is that the terrorists hate us for our freedoms, because we are a Christian nation and because the Quran instructs them to kill the infidels and establish a worldwide caliphate.  This is not why they attack us.  This is not why people become radicalized and join ISIS.

History did not start on 9/11.  The attacked followed more than a decade of US bombings, sanctions, and various levels of interference into the middle east.  Osama bin Laden very explicitly said that he planned and carried out the attacks as revenge for the deaths of Arabs at the hands of US foreign policy.

These intermittent terrorist attacks committed against the United States occur within a larger context that you are willfully choosing to ignore.

[walkstall]

Your position is that the terrorists hate us for our freedoms, because we are a Christian nation and because the Quran instructs them to kill the infidels and establish a worldwide caliphate.  This is not why they attack us.  This is not why people become radicalized and join ISIS.

History did not start on 9/11.  The attacked followed more than a decade of US bombings, sanctions, and various levels of interference into the middle east.  Osama bin Laden very explicitly said that he planned and carried out the attacks as revenge for the deaths of Arabs at the hands of US foreign policy.

These intermittent terrorist attacks committed against the United States occur within a larger context that you are willfully choosing to ignore.

History did not start on 9/11.

 

No it did not.  They have been killing each other for over 3.000 years.  Long before there was a U.S. or a bomb.  It's there way of life.

[tac]

   

No it did not.  They have been killing each other for over 3.000 years.  Long before there was a U.S. or a bomb.  It's there way of life.

It's convenient for the hate America crowd to forget that part. 

[walkstall]

It's convenient for the hate America crowd to forget that part. 

Well some of us have been around longer then they have been flinging poo in hopes it will stick.

[Solar]

Your position is that the terrorists hate us for our freedoms, because we are a Christian nation and because the Quran instructs them to kill the infidels and establish a worldwide caliphate.  This is not why they attack us.  This is not why people become radicalized and join ISIS.

History did not start on 9/11.  The attacked followed more than a decade of US bombings, sanctions, and various levels of interference into the middle east.  Osama bin Laden very explicitly said that he planned and carried out the attacks as revenge for the deaths of Arabs at the hands of US foreign policy.

These intermittent terrorist attacks committed against the United States occur within a larger context that you are willfully choosing to ignore.

OK. It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to create your own facts.
I've been skimming this thread for awhile now and it's obvious you're completely oblivious and ignorant to history. I can appreciate the fact that you hate war, we all hate war, but war is merely a mirrored image and an amplification of human nature, sometimes it's failed politics, and sometimes it bruised egos, but in this case, it's a political system disguised as a religion, one of conquer and destruction.

Look up Barbary Pirates and why we have a Navy today. So cut the idiocy and learn something for a change!

[jrodefeld]

OK. It's one thing to have an opinion, it's another to create your own facts.
I've been skimming this thread for awhile now and it's obvious you're completely oblivious and ignorant to history. I can appreciate the fact that you hate war, we all hate war, but war is merely a mirrored image and an amplification of human nature, sometimes it's failed politics, and sometimes it bruised egos, but in this case, it's a political system disguised as a religion, one of conquer and destruction.

Look up Barbary Pirates and why we have a Navy today. So cut the idiocy and learn something for a change!

There will be internal problems and violence in the middle east for the foreseeable future.  However, they would not be planning, plotting and executing terrorist attacks against the United States were it not for our foreign interventions into their countries.  I'm not "creating my own facts".  I'm relying on the scholarly work of experts who have studied this, primarily Scheuer, Pape and Johnson who I cited earlier.

If you hate war as much as I do, are you willing to support pulling all of our troops out of the middle east, ending the use of drones to bomb people in foreign countries, closing Guantanamo prison, and adopting a non-interventionist foreign policy? 

I don't know what the Barbary Pirates have to do with anything.  Interestingly, our early presidents used Letters of Marque and Reprisal to go after the Barbary Pirates, since they were non-State actors. 

Ron Paul supported the use of Letters of Marque and Reprisal to capture or kill Osama bin Laden after 9/11 and I think this would have been the best solution.  The Letters could be employed if and when a non-State group of people launch an attack against Americans.  This would be far more effective than employing our military, invading foreign lands and nation-building.

[Possum]

There will be internal problems and violence in the middle east for the foreseeable future.  However, they would not be planning, plotting and executing terrorist attacks against the United States were it not for our foreign interventions into their countries.  I'm not "creating my own facts".  I'm relying on the scholarly work of experts who have studied this, primarily Scheuer, Pape and Johnson who I cited earlier.

If you hate war as much as I do, are you willing to support pulling all of our troops out of the middle east, ending the use of drones to bomb people in foreign countries, closing Guantanamo prison, and adopting a non-interventionist foreign policy? 

I don't know what the Barbary Pirates have to do with anything.  Interestingly, our early presidents used Letters of Marque and Reprisal to go after the Barbary Pirates, since they were non-State actors. 

Ron Paul supported the use of Letters of Marque and Reprisal to capture or kill Osama bin Laden after 9/11 and I think this would have been the best solution.  The Letters could be employed if and when a non-State group of people launch an attack against Americans.  This would be far more effective than employing our military, invading foreign lands and nation-building.

The scream right before the killings start is "Allahu akbar" or God is greater. It has nothing to do with their country or any occupation and everything to do with their religion. If you take a look you will notice different tribes of  muslims have been killing each other since written history began and long before countries existed. Christians who live in their country with them are killed for being Christians not for occupation. Jews are hated and killed for their beliefs and that led to war and occupation not the other way.  Can you cite one act of terrorism where the terrorist claimed his murdering innocents was due to our military? I can name several where the terrorist claimed he was killing in the name of  Allahu akbar because he was instructed to.

[quiller]

There will be internal problems and violence in the middle east for the foreseeable future.  However, they would not be planning, plotting and executing terrorist attacks against the United States were it not for our foreign interventions into their countries.  I'm not "creating my own facts".  I'm relying on the scholarly work of experts who have studied this, primarily Scheuer, Pape and Johnson who I cited earlier.

If you hate war as much as I do, are you willing to support pulling all of our troops out of the middle east, ending the use of drones to bomb people in foreign countries, closing Guantanamo prison, and adopting a non-interventionist foreign policy? 

I don't know what the Barbary Pirates have to do with anything.  Interestingly, our early presidents used Letters of Marque and Reprisal to go after the Barbary Pirates, since they were non-State actors. 

Ron Paul supported the use of Letters of Marque and Reprisal to capture or kill Osama bin Laden after 9/11 and I think this would have been the best solution.  The Letters could be employed if and when a non-State group of people launch an attack against Americans.  This would be far more effective than employing our military, invading foreign lands and nation-building.

I am constantly amazed how many leftists think if we do not go THERE to fight that they will not come HERE instead. Talk about magical thinking from halfwits! Those who want islamic treasonists in our White House, please vote Democrat!

I do support pulling our troops out. I would not want them harmed when Mecca and Medina go up in a mushroom cloud, taking everything in between with it.

Good Mussie. Glowing Mussie.....and thanks for 9/11.

[supsalemgr]

Here is a simple question.  If your entire family were murdered during a wedding party by a drone strike would this make you more or less likely to want to strike back against the foreign nation that perpetrated the attack?

If a foreign nation imposed crippling economic sanctions that deprived us of access to food and medicine, causing hundreds of thousands to die needlessly, would this make you more or less likely to seek revenge against the nation that did this?

The concept of blowback has been well known in our CIA, the military and academia for decades.  Why do you fail to recognize the concept?

There are a great number of non-Muslims in the middle east who have fallen victim to drone strikes, sanctions, and things of that nature.  And ISIS has recruited non-Muslims.

The data on this topic is quite clear.  We've been fighting a war on terror for fifteen years and we've seen a massive increase in worldwide terrorist attacks.  Your only answer is to keep doing what we've been doing, except even more.  This clearly has not worked.

Robert Pape, Michael Scheuer and Chalmers Johnson have studied this phenomenon extensively.  Scheuer was the head of the CIA's bin Laden unit and he knows more about the motivations for Islamic terrorists than almost anyone.

Michael Scheuer:

Terrorists Don't Hate USA For Our Freedoms, It's Our Interventionist Foreign Policy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES-xWjzZwZE

Robert Pape interview on The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GunwBXxGdwQ

Chalmers Johnson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5SoE9vBc6I



There is literally nothing to support your position.  Everyone who knows anything about the subject recognizes that the motivation for suicide terrorism is primarily military occupation.  Terrorists resent the meddling in their affairs by a foreign power and they strike back any way they can.  Terrorism is the most effective tactic for a very small and powerless group of people to fight against a very strong and powerful adversary.

I don't support any act of terrorism.  And we should treat terrorist attacks like we treat any other crime.  The perpetrators should be captured or killed.

But we should recognize that there is good reason for people in the middle east to hate us.  There is every reason to hate the United States military for killing innocent people around the world and interfering with the autonomy of sovereign nations.  This doesn't excuse the deliberate targeting of civilians, of course.

Why not comment on the three videos I linked to?  You might learn something by listening to people who have actually studied the matter.

Do you have any specifics on these non-terrorist folks being behind attacks on America and Americans? It seems you fail to acknowledge the heathens we are targeting purposely mingle among innocents so collateral damage is inevitable. It is part of war.

[Solar]

There will be internal problems and violence in the middle east for the foreseeable future.  However, they would not be planning, plotting and executing terrorist attacks against the United States were it not for our foreign interventions into their countries.  I'm not "creating my own facts".  I'm relying on the scholarly work of experts who have studied this, primarily Scheuer, Pape and Johnson who I cited earlier.

If you hate war as much as I do, are you willing to support pulling all of our troops out of the middle east, ending the use of drones to bomb people in foreign countries, closing Guantanamo prison, and adopting a non-interventionist foreign policy? 

I don't know what the Barbary Pirates have to do with anything.  Interestingly, our early presidents used Letters of Marque and Reprisal to go after the Barbary Pirates, since they were non-State actors. 

Ron Paul supported the use of Letters of Marque and Reprisal to capture or kill Osama bin Laden after 9/11 and I think this would have been the best solution.  The Letters could be employed if and when a non-State group of people launch an attack against Americans.  This would be far more effective than employing our military, invading foreign lands and nation-building.

And that answer proves just what I was saying, that you're an ignorant idealistic kid with absolutely no concept of history or it's connection to the real world.
You've lived such a protected life here in the US, you apply American values to the rest of the world, you think everyone wants to live in peace, well they don't you moron!
These barbarians want what you have, and if they don't slit your throat, they'll make you a slave, a commodity to bought and sold on the open mkt.

To understand your own world, you need to know the world of the enemy, understand it's timeline in relation to war and peace, and what you'll find is it's only at peace because it's enemy is stronger, and yes, the US as a Christian nation is it's sworn enemy and according to it's so called religion deserves to be conquered.
Here is an excerpt from what kids are taught in S/A.

The Saudis, the Custodians of Islam, also preach tolerance. Here is the proof.

I went through school textbooks taught in Saudi Arabia and Indonesia. Here is an English translation of some passages from these books.

A fourth grade textbook on Monotheism and Religion instructs students:

"Any other religion other than Islam is invalid (false)." (P. 29 )

"Hate (yakrah) the polytheists and the infidels" as a requirement of "true faith." (P. 86)

5th Grade. Book: Monotheism and Religion:

*"Every religion other than Islam is invalid." (P. 33)

More~~~
http://www.islam-watch.org/Sami/Islam-Tolerant-Religion-Kill-the-Infidels.htm

I could go on for days with proof that this is the norm in Ismum, but instead of trying to unbrainwash you, I challenge you to find anything similar in our schools.

[Ghoulardi]

If you hate war as much as I do, are you willing to support pulling all of our troops out of the middle east, ending the use of drones to bomb people in foreign countries, closing Guantanamo prison, and adopting a non-interventionist foreign policy? 

If you all hate war? Do you know anybody who wants war? Do you think people actually get up in the morning and say, "You know what we need, a good war."?

We all hate war. Nobody wants war. But, the truth of the matter is human history is NOT the history of making friends. The only way true way to end war is to NOT have something worth defending. Which, of course, brings into question are liberty and capitalism worth defending?

I would say so. Both have allowed millions to reach their true potential and created a culture that during the 50s and 60s the world emulated. It also created an economy where millions haad a standard of living never before seen in the world.

Has the US made mistakes? Of course, but no more than any other country. Remember, the Soviet Union was fighting Bin Laden before we were. The French were in Viet Nam before we were. So why is it we never hear about the sins of other countries and only have libs running down ours?

[jrodefeld]

The scream right before the killings start is "Allahu akbar" or God is greater. It has nothing to do with their country or any occupation and everything to do with their religion. If you take a look you will notice different tribes of  muslims have been killing each other since written history began and long before countries existed. Christians who live in their country with them are killed for being Christians not for occupation. Jews are hated and killed for their beliefs and that led to war and occupation not the other way.  Can you cite one act of terrorism where the terrorist claimed his murdering innocents was due to our military? I can name several where the terrorist claimed he was killing in the name of  Allahu akbar because he was instructed to.

Could you even bother to watch at least some of the videos I've posted on this topic?  Nearly every major Islamic terrorist attack against the United States over the past twenty years has been motivated entirely or in large part due to resentment over US military intervention into the middle east.  And the terrorists who plotted and committed these actions have not been shy about tell us explicitly WHY they were attacking us. 

If you can stand it, you can hear this from Osama bin Laden's own mouth in a video he made following the attack of 9/11:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOif-wZJgZo

Notice how many times he references US military strikes against Muslims.  Notice how he refers to the US as a "Crusader nation" that has been waging an unprovoked war against the Muslim world.  Whether you agree or not, Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda believed that they were responding to war crimes committed by the United States against their countries. 

Or consider the case of Anwar Al-Awlaki, the American citizen who Obama killed by a drone strike.  Obama also killed his 16 year old son.

Al-Awlaki was a very moderate American Muslim who preached against violence and espoused tolerance.  Over the course of years he became more and more disgusted with the United States attacks and war crimes committed against the Muslim world.  He became more and more radicalized. 

It should be noted that Al-Awlaki never committed any violent terrorist acts, nor was he proved to have conspired to commit such acts.  He was killed essentially for his speech.  Free speech, of course, is a Constitution right enshrined in the first amendment. 

This is what Al-Awlaki said after 9/11:

"Muslims still see bin Laden as a person with extremely radical ideas. But he has been able to take advantage of the sentiment that is out there regarding U.S. foreign policy. We're totally against what the terrorists had done. We want to bring those who had done this to justice. But we're also against the killing of civilians in Afghanistan."

Another quote from Al-Awlaki:

"The ummah [global Muslim community] is watching while Iraq is being devoured. It's not going to stop there, because it's going to spill over into Syria and Allah knows where. In your own city, and in this country, many people have been arrested. You know if you talk about Guantánamo Bay and all this — there's a Guantánamo Bay in this country. It's an insult to Islam. Allah will revenge for himself, but the thing is, we cannot allow such things to happen and just watch."

And this is one of the most relevant quotes I could find:

"I, for one, was born in the U.S. I lived in the U.S. for 21 years. America was my home. I was a preacher of Islam involved in nonviolent Islamic activism. However, with the American invasion of Iraq and continued U.S. aggression against Muslims, I could not reconcile between living in the U.S. and being a Muslim, and I eventually came to the conclusion that jihad against America is binding upon myself, just as it is binding on every other able Muslim."


It can't get any more crystal clear than this.  US foreign policy and war crimes committed against the Muslim world generate such anger and resentment that otherwise moderate and peaceful Muslims become radicalized and want to fight back.

If you watch the videos of Robert Pape that I posted, he cites numerous quotes of Islamic terrorists who explain what their motivations are.


By the way, there were a large number of Christians who lived in the SECULAR state of Iraq before our invasion.  They were not being killed by the Muslims who lived in that country.  After our invasion, many of these Christians have been killed or displaced and now the radical Islamic State has taken over.  There are a large number of Christians and Jews who live peacefully in Iran and they are not being killed en masse by their Islamic neighbors.

In fact, Christianity is growing in Iran faster than anywhere in the world:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/2/5/1362609/-Why-is-Christianity-Growing-So-Fast-in-Iran


Furthermore, Iran has the highest percentage of Jewish citizens in the middle east outside of Israel:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/irans-jewish-community-reflects-a-complicated-relationship-with-israel/2013/10/02/e531039e-2ac4-11e3-b141-298f46539716_story.html


I am not arguing that there aren't radical Muslims who do kill and have killed non-believers, stoned women and gays to death and committed all manner of barbaric acts.  But these internal problems within some nations in the middle east would not be OUR problem.  This is something for moderate Muslims in the region to work out for themselves.

It should be noted that ISIS is not a popular group in the middle east.  They are barbarians who are hated by nearly everyone.  Moderate nations in the region would be capable to taking them out if the United States simply got out of the region and ALLOWED them to deal with some of their own problems.

The rise and proliferation of ISIS is largely a result of the United States intervention into the middle east which destabilized the region, created a power vacuum in Iraq which allowed radicals to take advantage.

[jrodefeld]

I am constantly amazed how many leftists think if we do not go THERE to fight that they will not come HERE instead. Talk about magical thinking from halfwits! Those who want islamic treasonists in our White House, please vote Democrat!

I do support pulling our troops out. I would not want them harmed when Mecca and Medina go up in a mushroom cloud, taking everything in between with it.

Good Mussie. Glowing Mussie.....and thanks for 9/11.

I've cited actual facts, quotes, interviews and lectures by experts that demonstrate the motivations for Islamic terrorist attacks against the United States.  Why not try to refute some of it?  Or at least acknowledge the evidence I've presented.

Why do we hate ISIS and radical Islamic fundamentalists?  Probably because they murdered innocents, are intolerant of other religions, treat women and gays terribly and so forth.  But if we want to take the moral high-ground, we cannot tolerate our government murdering innocents in the Muslim world either.

And you absolutely abdicate any right to assume the position of moral superiority if you'd cheer on a Nuclear first-strike against Muslim holy cities.

Can't we have consistent moral principles?  If the murder of innocents is wrong, there can be no exceptions, not even for the so-called "indispensable nation".

If we object to radical Muslims waging war against the United States, we shouldn't tolerate the United States waging war against the Muslim world.  We can target and bring to justice specific terrorists who commit violence against Americans, but our foreign policy has caused great harm to people who have never done a thing against us.

If you're an absolutely amoral person, then there's probably nothing to be gained by talking to you.  On the other hand, if you can accept a principled standard of ethics, you should be able to condemn US war crimes against the Muslim World just as you rightly condemn terrorist war crimes against the American people.

[quiller]

> Soros Tool

Liberals can see a photo of someone leaping to their death from the World Trade Center...and defend Islam. You're that kind of idiot, sonny.

The ragheads were killing each other long before the U.S.A. was formed. They kill each other and others, they don't care as long as they kill.. Unfortunately they breed more, like cockroaches. That part can be fixed.

To a leftist surrender-now artist like yourself, "amoral" means something negative. Unlike the surrender artists like yourself, I want to win. Thinning the Islamic herd and sending a message in the hundreds of thousands: THANKS FOR 9/11 --- now, THAT'S a plan.

[jrodefeld]

> Soros Tool

Liberals can see a photo of someone leaping to their death from the World Trade Center...and defend Islam. You're that kind of idiot, sonny.

The ragheads were killing each other long before the U.S.A. was formed. They kill each other and others, they don't care as long as they kill.. Unfortunately they breed more, like cockroaches. That part can be fixed.

To a leftist surrender-now artist like yourself, "amoral" means something negative. Unlike the surrender artists like yourself, I want to win. Thinning the Islamic herd and sending a message in the hundreds of thousands: THANKS FOR 9/11 --- now, THAT'S a plan.

I'm not a "liberal", nor am I a "Soros tool".

I am a libertarian in the tradition of Ron Paul and Murray Rothbard.  I am a libertarian in the tradition of Ludvig von Mises, Frederich Hayek and Frederic Bastiat.

George Soros agitates for bigger government through the financial of political operatives involved in the Democratic Party.  I argue for the abolition of government to be replaced by the spontaneous order of the market, private law and private defense.

You are thinking along a fraudulent binary system whereby all political views can be placed into either "liberal" or "conservative" boxes.

It continues to amaze me how you simply refuse to acknowledge the facts that I've presented. 

I see pictures of people leaping to their deaths from the twin towers and I blame Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda.  I don't blame the religion of Islam because the motivations of the terrorists who attack us have almost nothing to do with Islam.  I've proved this again and again.  I've cited quotes from terrorists who have attacked us and I've posted lectures and interviews from experts who have studied this.

Nobody excuses terrorist attacks, but we also cannot excuse the deaths of innocent people at the hands of the United States military.  I'm just calling for consistency.

The general anger and resentment that many in the Muslim world feel about the United States is justified and understandable.  The purposeful targeting of innocent civilians by terrorists is not excusable.

Ron Paul argued for a foreign policy based on the "golden rule" during the 2012 presidential primaries.  He was booed for being a good Christian by un-Christian Evangelicals who, in their bloodlust, forget the teachings of their messiah.

Doing unto others as you'd have them do unto you is a Christian teaching. 

If your entire family was destroyed in a drone strike by a foreign nation, how would you feel towards that foreign nation?

This is such an elementary question, but too many conservatives choose to willfully ignore it.  They "other-ize" the Muslim world and deprive them of their humanity.  I suspect they do this so they don't have to confront the moral guilt they'd feel if they openly saw the devastation wrought by their foreign policy.

Describing Muslims as "cockroaches", "ragheads" and similar dehumanizing terms reveals this.

I suppose you think that the chance birth of a baby into a nation in the middle east means that their lives are forfeit?

During Bill Clinton's decade-long policy of sanctions and routine bombings in Iraq during the 1990s, an estimated 500,000 children died needlessly due to lack of access to food and medicine.

What did these children ever do to us?  Why is it permissible that our military snuff out their lives before they had a chance to experience life?

This is the sort of thing that makes moderate Muslims and decent people around the world angry and resentful of the military who carry out such atrocities and the American people who allow it to continue.

This is such goddamn simple common sense.  I'm convinced that it takes a willful act of deliberate self-deception to avoid the overwhelming evidence and convince yourselves that people are blowing themselves up to kill Americans simply because the Quran tells them to.