My response to Walkstall's comment

[zewazir]

Why is attitude treated as building blocks of reality itself by people in American society?

Because reality is what it is. A person can wail against it, or make something new of it. Two different people buy two old barns on two small pieces of property.  Each one opens the door and finds half the floor space of the barn occupied by a gigantic pile of rotting horse and bovine waste.

Person one whines and cried about the unfairness of the greedy a-hole that sold him the crappy barn, then spends $500 to hire another person to take their tractor and haul off the aged manure.

Person two goes out and buys a garden tractor, uses it to haul out person one's manure, adds it to his, and makes a killing selling organic fertilizer to local gardeners.

Attitude. If you see the world as out to get you, and yourself as a helpless victim, then that is how your life is going to go. (That includes any and all mental and/or physical difficulties a person may have.)

If, OTOH, you see the world as a set of undisclosed opportunities waiting to be discovered, then you have a far better chance of achieving the life style you want.

[cubedemon]

Because reality is what it is. A person can wail against it, or make something new of it. Two different people buy two old barns on two small pieces of property.  Each one opens the door and finds half the floor space of the barn occupied by a gigantic pile of rotting horse and bovine waste.

Person one whines and cried about the unfairness of the greedy a-hole that sold him the crappy barn, then spends $500 to hire another person to take their tractor and haul off the aged manure.

Person two goes out and buys a garden tractor, uses it to haul out person one's manure, adds it to his, and makes a killing selling organic fertilizer to local gardeners.

Attitude. If you see the world as out to get you, and yourself as a helpless victim, then that is how your life is going to go. (That includes any and all mental and/or physical difficulties a person may have.)

If, OTOH, you see the world as a set of undisclosed opportunities waiting to be discovered, then you have a far better chance of achieving the life style you want.

Are you saying that reality and existence itself has some dependence on my thoughts?   How is that so?   I remember I had to charge a car battery.  I didn't believe I would successfully do it and in fact I thought I would screw up the car in spite of downloading instructions.   By the logic of this whole attitude thing, I should have failed at it yet I was able to charge the car.  How did I charge the car if my lack of believing and having a negative attitude should've caused it not to charge?   What is the extent of the dependent relationship of reality against my attitude?   What is the limit and constraint?

[zewazir]

Are you saying that reality and existence itself has some dependence on my thoughts?   How is that so?   I remember I had to charge a car battery.  I didn't believe I would successfully do it and in fact I thought I would screw up the car in spite of downloading instructions.   By the logic of this whole attitude thing, I should have failed at it yet I was able to charge the car.  How did I charge the car if my lack of believing and having a negative attitude should've caused it not to charge?   What is the extent of the dependent relationship of reality against my attitude?   What is the limit and constraint?

First, no I am not saying reality is dependent on how a person thinks.  Reality IS WHAT IT IS. Only liberals think that reality is what should change when reality and perception conflict.

What I AM saying is SUCCESS depends on how a person thinks. If they think they will fail, then that increases the chances of failure. The attitude in which a person thinks they are going to fail makes failure certain if that attitude prevents them from even trying.  Also, think about it this way: how much EFFORT will the average person put into a project if they are convinced it will end in failure? OTOH, how much effort will a person put into a project in which they are convinced they can (not necessarily WILL, but CAN) succeed?

No one likes to waste effort.  Not even a workaholic is going to choose a method which is deliberately less efficient than a known alternate method. And what will be the thought about attempting a goal which a person is certain of failure?  They won't want to waste the effort. So they don't try.  Or, if they do try, they are more likely to minimize the effort they put into the attempt.

In the barns full of crap analogy, there was no reality changed by the differing attitudes. Both hypothetical subjects had purchased an old barn, both found them full of old dung. But the results stemming from the situation were vastly different due to how each person approached the problem of having purchased a barn full of crap. Life is not about circumstances, but how we react to them.  And attitude plays a HUGE role in how an individual is most likely to react to a set of circumstances.  Those who tend toward a "helpless victim" attitude are less likely to put in the effort it takes to overcome challenges.  People with the proverbial "Can do!" are enormously more likely to achieve success out of ANY circumstances becaue they are willing to put in the effort it takes to overcome challenges.  This includes the challenges that come from failing on the first attempt. (or second, or third, or twenty-third.)

You charged your car because you did not allow your belief in failure to prevent you from trying. Reality was not changed.  You had a flat battery, and a charger. But, despite your fears, you went ahead and tried. And that led to success.  Learn to apply that basic experience to the rest of your life. Success ONLY comes from trying. Admittedly, a lot of failure comes from trying, too. But NOT trying GUARANTEES failure. A half-hearted attempt is more likely to fail that an all-out attempt. Think of it as a spectrum.

Success, whether small or major, is never guaranteed. That's just the way life (reality) is. But attitude CAN guarantee failure IF YOU ALLOW IT TO. You did not allow it to do so when charging your car. Learn from that. Failure is ONLY guaranteed if you allow your attitude to prevent you from trying.

You keep saying you cannot function/succeed in general life without a lot of assistance. Well, in your battery charging story, you've just admitted that you've already proven yourself wrong.

[cubedemon]

First, no I am not saying reality is dependent on how a person thinks.  Reality IS WHAT IT IS. Only liberals think that reality is what should change when reality and perception conflict.

What I AM saying is SUCCESS depends on how a person thinks. If they think they will fail, then that increases the chances of failure. The attitude in which a person thinks they are going to fail makes failure certain if that attitude prevents them from even trying.  Also, think about it this way: how much EFFORT will the average person put into a project if they are convinced it will end in failure? OTOH, how much effort will a person put into a project in which they are convinced they can (not necessarily WILL, but CAN) succeed?

No one likes to waste effort.  Not even a workaholic is going to choose a method which is deliberately less efficient than a known alternate method. And what will be the thought about attempting a goal which a person is certain of failure?  They won't want to waste the effort. So they don't try.  Or, if they do try, they are more likely to minimize the effort they put into the attempt.

In the barns full of crap analogy, there was no reality changed by the differing attitudes. Both hypothetical subjects had purchased an old barn, both found them full of old dung. But the results stemming from the situation were vastly different due to how each person approached the problem of having purchased a barn full of crap. Life is not about circumstances, but how we react to them.  And attitude plays a HUGE role in how an individual is most likely to react to a set of circumstances.  Those who tend toward a "helpless victim" attitude are less likely to put in the effort it takes to overcome challenges.  People with the proverbial "Can do!" are enormously more likely to achieve success out of ANY circumstances becaue they are willing to put in the effort it takes to overcome challenges.  This includes the challenges that come from failing on the first attempt. (or second, or third, or twenty-third.)

You charged your car because you did not allow your belief in failure to prevent you from trying. Reality was not changed.  You had a flat battery, and a charger. But, despite your fears, you went ahead and tried. And that led to success.  Learn to apply that basic experience to the rest of your life. Success ONLY comes from trying. Admittedly, a lot of failure comes from trying, too. But NOT trying GUARANTEES failure. A half-hearted attempt is more likely to fail that an all-out attempt. Think of it as a spectrum.

Success, whether small or major, is never guaranteed. That's just the way life (reality) is. But attitude CAN guarantee failure IF YOU ALLOW IT TO. You did not allow it to do so when charging your car. Learn from that. Failure is ONLY guaranteed if you allow your attitude to prevent you from trying.

You keep saying you cannot function/succeed in general life without a lot of assistance. Well, in your battery charging story, you've just admitted that you've already proven yourself wrong.

Wow,  I understand your words and I can follow your structure and flow.  They're logical, consistent and coherent.  Your words are complete as well.   

This is what you're saying in more formal logical terms. 

For all cases I do something and the more I frequently do this something  S, the higher the probability I will have success but there are no guarantees. 

For all cases I do nothing I'm guaranteed to fail at what I don't try to do. 

These are our logical constraints of what we're talking about, correct?

If this is the case, then why don't people say it like this?  Why do they say it in a more emotional, abstract and vague way instead of something that logically flows and is concrete (which is how you said it)?

Both liberals and conservatives seem to say things in a more emotional, abstract and vague way conservatives less so though it seems like.   

[cubedemon]

With my jumping of the car I was able to find the instructions and I was able to understand them.   When I think back to those instructions, the instructions were very specific and concrete.  Positive had to be connected to positive and negative had to be connected to negative.  In other words, red with red, black with black. 

Here is where the issues I have lie.  When I go to look up career and job advice what I find is this.   The advice is vague, contradictory and it makes no sense. All I see is a whole bunch of cliches.     I might as well be reading Chinese.   

When one says to start at the bottom or I must have a career goal.   You might as well be speaking Chinese to me.   Let's say I set this career goal.  I would need to know what the specific allowable moves to make and what specific moves are prohibited.  I literally don't know or understand the steps to get there.  I am missing specifics.   

It's the same thing with medical insurance.  It's like reading Chinese.   

Let me put it to you this way.  When I got my first debit card I had no clue as to what people meant when they asked me "cash back."  Did it mean that they would simply give me cash of theres or would it be out of my own account?   The only way I was able to find out and fill in the gap was to test it out by buying a small item and getting 0.50 back.  Lo and behold it was out of my account?   

For you, this type of stuff is common sense and obvious.   For me, it is not and it is extremely complex because certain details and specifics are left out.   W/O those specifics the other person speaks in an incomplete way and seems like they're on shrooms.   It's like parts of the music on a DVD is missing and the DVD is skipping alot. 

Your simple is my complex and Your complex is my simple.

Your red is my green and your green is my red.   

I am able to understand your words because your words are more complete, specific and concrete. 

[cubedemon]

I was told to think outside of the box by Solar.   

Problem with that.   I have no clue what the box is that I am working in and who's box I am working in.   Before one can think outside of the box one would have to know what the box was.  I have no clue as to what our box is. 

[Solar]

I was told to think outside of the box by Solar.   

Problem with that.   I have no clue what the box is that I am working in and who's box I am working in.   Before one can think outside of the box one would have to know what the box was.  I have no clue as to what our box is.

You answered your own question in the debit, cash back comment.
Trial and error is your teacher, and obviously the only way you're going to learn and make these cognitive connections, is get the Hell out there and take some freakin risks on your own.
Will you fail? Undoubtedly. But so what, that's life and that's how we all learn, by trying.

You've spent months asking questions, only to wind up with 10 times as many questions, which will only result in a factor x 100 and still no answers.
Get of your ass and apply what you do know, because when you fail, you'll have the answers to avoid failing the next time.
Until you try, you'll never have a complete picture.

For you? Thinking outside the box is simply doing. Not reading about it, not asking a gazillion questions, but actually walking out the door and safety of your apartment and applying what little you know.
Thing is, you have all the information, it's just not connected to anything, but actually getting your hands dirty will force you to connect every dot.

[walkstall]

You answered your own question in the debit, cash back comment.
Trial and error is your teacher, and obviously the only way you're going to learn and make these cognitive connections, is get the Hell out there and take some freakin risks on your own.
Will you fail? Undoubtedly. But so what, that's life and that's how we all learn, by trying.

You've spent months asking questions, only to wind up with 10 times as many questions, which will only result in a factor x 100 and still no answers.
Get of your ass and apply what you do know, because when you fail, you'll have the answers to avoid failing the next time.
Until you try, you'll never have a complete picture.

For you? Thinking outside the box is simply doing. Not reading about it, not asking a gazillion questions, but actually walking out the door and safety of your apartment and applying what little you know.
Thing is, you have all the information, it's just not connected to anything, but actually getting your hands dirty will force you to connect every dot.

Sounds more like he is afraid of making a mistake and looking like a fool.   Making a fool of yourself is one way of learning real fast.   I have done that more then once in my life.   And I am sure I am not done yet. 

[Solar]

Sounds more like he is afraid of making a mistake and looking like a fool.   Making a fool of yourself is one way of learning real fast.   I have done that more then once in my life.   And I am sure I am not done yet. 

You bet! Same here, it's how I became successful in the end.
Now I pay others to play the fool.

[zewazir]

I was told to think outside of the box by Solar.   

Problem with that.   I have no clue what the box is that I am working in and who's box I am working in.   Before one can think outside of the box one would have to know what the box was.  I have no clue as to what our box is.

The box in most cases is defined by the individual. You are defining your own box. You're thinking is strictly literal and linear. Unfortunately, reality is very seldom linear, especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships and communication. Nor are interpersonal relationships (and this include professional relationships) are not going to literal. And, no, reality is not going to change itself for your perceived needs. As such, going into the issue of being a functional, independent, producing citizen of your community/society, you need to change the attitude "I need a job with these particular linear, literal traits" to "I need to find a way to adjust my linear thinking so that it can meet the needs of my potential employers."

So, for you, cubedemon, "thinking outside the box" would mean jumping the tracks of your linear thinking. "There is more than one way to skin a rabbit."  Cliche'?  Possibly. But still a principle you can apply to how you approach problems and/or goals. Some types of employment are more linear than others, but none are as linear as you would desire. That is reality, and it is not going to change.  But you CAN change yourself in that you can find ways to adjust your linear thinking to accommodate a non-linear world.

You ALMOST got it in an earlier response. For every goal and/or problem, there is a variable chance of success. The more times a person attempts to accomplish said endeavor, the greater their chances of succeeding. BUT, for the chances of success to increase, the individual needs to adjust how they go about achieving the goal and/or solving the problem. If solution A does not work, come up with solution B, since repeating solution A will most often give the same results. (Another old cliche': the definition of insanity is when a person tries the same method repeatedly, expecting different results. Cliche', but very true.)

This is where you need to get out of your linear thinking. If an attempt fails, analyze why, and change the method to prevent the why from reoccurring.  But above all TRY, as you did with charging the battery. If you attempt to pre-analyze everything and put it into some kind of strictly defined linear flow chart, you will always be in the planning stage and never get to the part where you actually try. Trying is the only way you are going to find out if your idea on how to approach a task will succeed or not. And if it does not succeed, make a change in your method, and try again. And again, and again, and again.

Experience it the best teacher. Yet another cliche', but also another truth. And no one can gain experience without trying.

[cubedemon]

The box in most cases is defined by the individual. You are defining your own box. You're thinking is strictly literal and linear. Unfortunately, reality is very seldom linear, especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships and communication. Nor are interpersonal relationships (and this include professional relationships) are not going to literal. And, no, reality is not going to change itself for your perceived needs. As such, going into the issue of being a functional, independent, producing citizen of your community/society, you need to change the attitude "I need a job with these particular linear, literal traits" to "I need to find a way to adjust my linear thinking so that it can meet the needs of my potential employers."

So, for you, cubedemon, "thinking outside the box" would mean jumping the tracks of your linear thinking. "There is more than one way to skin a rabbit."  Cliche'?  Possibly. But still a principle you can apply to how you approach problems and/or goals. Some types of employment are more linear than others, but none are as linear as you would desire. That is reality, and it is not going to change.  But you CAN change yourself in that you can find ways to adjust your linear thinking to accommodate a non-linear world.

You ALMOST got it in an earlier response. For every goal and/or problem, there is a variable chance of success. The more times a person attempts to accomplish said endeavor, the greater their chances of succeeding. BUT, for the chances of success to increase, the individual needs to adjust how they go about achieving the goal and/or solving the problem. If solution A does not work, come up with solution B, since repeating solution A will most often give the same results. (Another old cliche': the definition of insanity is when a person tries the same method repeatedly, expecting different results. Cliche', but very true.)

This is where you need to get out of your linear thinking. If an attempt fails, analyze why, and change the method to prevent the why from reoccurring.  But above all TRY, as you did with charging the battery. If you attempt to pre-analyze everything and put it into some kind of strictly defined linear flow chart, you will always be in the planning stage and never get to the part where you actually try. Trying is the only way you are going to find out if your idea on how to approach a task will succeed or not. And if it does not succeed, make a change in your method, and try again. And again, and again, and again.

Experience it the best teacher. Yet another cliche', but also another truth. And no one can gain experience without trying.

I do love the cliches you mentioned.   

When we mean linear thinking are you talking about this?   http://chuckslamp.com/index.php/2009/04/11/non-linearthinking/

Looking at other websites you're right I am thinking in a strictly literal and linear fashion.  I thought most people thought in a linear fashion. 

My thinking is that a = b, b=c, therefore a=c.  This is my natural thinking pattern.  This is what I did with Solar and others on here.   My natural thinking style causes me to find faults with certain aspects of liberal logic like tolerance.   They believe in tolerance of all view points and people no matter who or what they are.   By that logic, they should include those who are the most intolerant people on the earth and who don't share tolerance at all.   To accept tolerance, by their logic one must accept intolerance.   Yet, they don't. Why?   Some of their beliefs are inconsistent as well.   

What you're saying is I need to think outside of being linear and literalism.   Is this correct?   If this is correct, than do you have any tips or ideas on what I can do to do this?   

One thing I have discovered by observation and analysis is that most people use a form of verbal short hand.  It's a way of shortening communication to make communication more efficient so there is more time to get things done.  Most people do this automatically by reflex.  Because of my literalism I have problems spotting this.   

Example:  I'm told to be myself.  Be yourself doesn't mean literally what it says.   

It means to be my best self.

The best self is define by the social situation at hand which means there are many best selves.  If I'm in an interview, there is a certain best self I'm supposed to present.  If I am with my grandmother, it is different.  If I am with my friends, the best self is different there as well.  With a child, the best self is defined differently again.  Most people switch between these best selves automatically like second nature. 

I wish there was a way you and I could hang out somewhere and talk about stuff like this face to face.  I would eat somewhere like IHOP, Golden Coral or something.

[cubedemon]

The most confusing thing of all to me is to claim we have all of this freedom yet we have to conform to all of these social standards with no exceptions, no quarter given and an absolute manner. 

I will say that I'm glad I don't live in North Korea where they will kill you for saying doing wrong shit.  Here, you'll be ostrasized and rejected if the shit isn't against the law.   If I don't make eye contact properly with an employer, more than likely I will not be hired (ostrasization). 

It seems to me that the difference between a country that has freedom and one that doesn't is the consequence.   North Korea and Isis- they kill you.  Here, people individually ostracize you as a part of a culture if one violates certain social norms.  Another thing, one doesn't get a say or vote in what these norms are. 

Freedom and not freedom is a choice between Kang and Kodos.   

I'll choose freedom and Kang any day over not freedom and Kodos. 

I hope other planets are discovered, space travel is common place therefore providing people with a lot more opportunities to do different things.  Now that would be awesome. 

[kroz]

The most confusing thing of all to me is to claim we have all of this freedom yet we have to conform to all of these social standards with no exceptions, no quarter given and an absolute manner. 

I will say that I'm glad I don't live in North Korea where they will kill you for saying doing wrong shit.  Here, you'll be ostrasized and rejected if the shit isn't against the law.   If I don't make eye contact properly with an employer, more than likely I will not be hired (ostrasization). 

It seems to me that the difference between a country that has freedom and one that doesn't is the consequence.   North Korea and Isis- they kill you.  Here, people individually ostracize you as a part of a culture if one violates certain social norms.  Another thing, one doesn't get a say or vote in what these norms are. 

Freedom and not freedom is a choice between Kang and Kodos.   

I'll choose freedom and Kang any day over not freedom and Kodos. 

I hope other planets are discovered, space travel is common place therefore providing people with a lot more opportunities to do different things.  Now that would be awesome.

cubedemon, some of the things that perplex you are merely social norms..... or etiquette.

You mention not looking someone in the eye will likely lead to not getting hired.  That is absolutely true.  Employers want to be able to see into your eyes when you speak because your eyes are a window on your soul.  Many people feel that they can gage the character of an individual just by gazing into his/her eyes when they speak.  Your eyes can betray you when you are less than truthful about something.

Also, failure to make direct eye contact with someone implies a lack of confidence and strength.  Employers want to hire go-getters.... not wimps.  The eyes are extremely important in judging someone's strengths.

I taught my children at a very young age that when they meet someone they should make direct eye contact, smile and offer a firm handshake.  That is just cultural norms.  It is good etiquette.

You probably also have a difficult time "reading" someone's body language.  These things are not black and white issues but they are still very important.  Paying attention to someone's reaction can tell you if you need to speak or shut up.  Facial expressions, shoulder shrugs and distracted eyes can tell you HOW you need to proceed if you are striving to win someone's acceptance.

Try to be sensitive to people's spirit.  It will go a long way to win friends and influence people.

[cubedemon]

cubedemon, some of the things that perplex you are merely social norms..... or etiquette.

You mention not looking someone in the eye will likely lead to not getting hired.  That is absolutely true.  Employers want to be able to see into your eyes when you speak because your eyes are a window on your soul.  Many people feel that they can gage the character of an individual just by gazing into his/her eyes when they speak.  Your eyes can betray you when you are less than truthful about something.

Also, failure to make direct eye contact with someone implies a lack of confidence and strength.  Employers want to hire go-getters.... not wimps.  The eyes are extremely important in judging someone's strengths.

I taught my children at a very young age that when they meet someone they should make direct eye contact, smile and offer a firm handshake.  That is just cultural norms.  It is good etiquette.

You probably also have a difficult time "reading" someone's body language.  These things are not black and white issues but they are still very important.  Paying attention to someone's reaction can tell you if you need to speak or shut up.  Facial expressions, shoulder shrugs and distracted eyes can tell you HOW you need to proceed if you are striving to win someone's acceptance.

Try to be sensitive to people's spirit.  It will go a long way to win friends and influence people.

I have no clue what you mean when you say try to be sensitive to people's spirit.

All of that's fine.  Here is what confuses me.  We're told we're an individualistic nation and meaning we follow the philosophy of individualism.  Yet, we're supposed to conform to all of these same social standards.   That's fine.   I'm cool with that.   We do need to have some social standards.   To call ourselves individualistic is a lie.   We're not an individualistic nation whatsoever.  We are a conformist culture but yet we claim to be an individualistic culture.   Not true.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.   https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/jumps-up-and-down-and-yells-look-at-me-look-at-me/

So, we supposed to do as the Romans do or are we supposed to stand out from the crowd?   What I see is a whole bunch of double-think and mixed signals. 

[cubedemon]

Here are other things I see. The presentation of America is that all one has to do is to work hard.  It is made to seem like this is the only prerequisite requirement for one to get and keep a job when it most certainly is not.  One has to have a certain personality and one has to have the correct social skills. 

Again, I just see a whole bunch of mixed signals and double think.