Conservative Political Forum

Quote from: walkstall on November 22, 2015, 10:54:32 AM
So your going to live on the government (working taxpayer) the rest of your live.  Must be nice have someone paying for your computer and internet, on the taxpayer.   There was a day when a disabled person got a job themselves.  As long as that government check keep coming in, why do something for yourself.

Solar told me to stick to the OP in that thread and out of respect for the forum rules and my consideration for his feelings I will respond to this by starting a new thread.  I had to take some time to think of a proper response.

First, SSDI is not welfare whatsoever and neither is the whole of social security.  In order for me to receive these benefits I have to make a certain contribution from my own tax dollars from the amount of revenue I received from the jobs I was able to have that were blessed by God. In addition, my employer paid part of it as well. 

Second, The only reason I was able to have the jobs that I did have was because God gave them to me.  I didn't earn them or interview for them.   God threw them into my lap.   

Third, God has not let me have a job and that is because he wanted to make me contrite.   He wants to have a relationship with me so he had to do things to get my ego out of the way.   

Fourth, speaking of ego.  It is both my ego and the way my mind is wired that was designed by God when I was fashioned in thee mother's womb that has caused my problems.  I was at a church service one day and the pastor who is a man of God and on one of his sermons he preached about a young lady named Kierra who was on drugs with a child living in a motel with her abusive boyfriend.   It was her way of thinking by her environment that got her to this point.   What my pastor said was profound and he said "How can she use her way of thinking that got her into this mess to get herself out of this mess?"   That is the same question I ask, how can I be expected to use my own autistic way of thinking, which is my nature, to be able to work things out myself to successfully get and keep a job if it is my very way of thinking that has caused my problems? 

Fifth, Wouldn't it behoove me to seek out those who don't think like myself and who are wiser than I to provide the very assistance I need so I can get off of the money that I am receiving in monthly installments that came from the sweat of my own brow with the jobs God chose to gave to me?  Wouldn't it behoove me to listen to God and get my own ego, my pride and my autistic way of thinking out of the way?   Does not prideth come before a fall?  It is my pride in my own intelligence and thinking I could work things out that caused my own fall.

Sixth, How do you know that all disabled persons were able to get and keep a job for themselves and they didn't end up in prison, killing themselves or ended up in the nut houses?   Where is your evidence that all disabled people were able to get and keep jobs without any assistance from someone and they were able to work it out themselves.  When I mean disabled I mean those with both physical and mental handicaps including but not limited to limited mobility, schizophrenia and mental retardation? 

Finally, God, Everyone of you,my family, my shrink,  and disability support services are wiser than I so why wouldn't I receive help from those who are wise and listen to those who have more wisdom than I and ask questions so I came become wiser so I can be gainfully employed?   For those who tell me to work it out myself and use my own thinking are you not telling me to be a fool and disobey God?   Didn't disobedience to God cause Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and didn't this act cause sin to fall upon the world and curse the land?  Isn't sin and disobedience to God how the world came to be as it is today with disease, death and damnation?   So, why would you give me advice that would cause me to disobey God and rely upon my own thinking and ego (which doesn't work by the way) to obtain a job so I can not eat for physical sustenance but for spiritual sustenance as well?   Would I not be a fool, unwise, and prideful by "doing something for myself" when God who in his infinite wisdom, knowledge and love has told me not to through my pastor's teaching of God's word?

http://biblehub.com/romans/1-22.htm

Quote from: cubedemon on November 25, 2015, 07:06:00 AM
Solar told me to stick to the OP in that thread and out of respect for the forum rules and my consideration for his feelings I will respond to this by starting a new thread.  I had to take some time to think of a proper response.

First, SSDI is not welfare whatsoever and neither is the whole of social security.  In order for me to receive these benefits I have to make a certain contribution from my own tax dollars from the amount of revenue I received from the jobs I was able to have that were blessed by God. In addition, my employer paid part of it as well. 

Second, The only reason I was able to have the jobs that I did have was because God gave them to me.  I didn't earn them or interview for them.   God threw them into my lap.   

Third, God has not let me have a job and that is because he wanted to make me contrite.   He wants to have a relationship with me so he had to do things to get my ego out of the way.   

Fourth, speaking of ego.  It is both my ego and the way my mind is wired that was designed by God when I was fashioned in thee mother's womb that has caused my problems.  I was at a church service one day and the pastor who is a man of God and on one of his sermons he preached about a young lady named Kierra who was on drugs with a child living in a motel with her abusive boyfriend.   It was her way of thinking by her environment that got her to this point.   What my pastor said was profound and he said "How can she use her way of thinking that got her into this mess to get herself out of this mess?"   That is the same question I ask, how can I be expected to use my own autistic way of thinking, which is my nature, to be able to work things out myself to successfully get and keep a job if it is my very way of thinking that has caused my problems? 

Fifth, Wouldn't it behoove me to seek out those who don't think like myself and who are wiser than I to provide the very assistance I need so I can get off of the money that I am receiving in monthly installments that came from the sweat of my own brow with the jobs God chose to gave to me?  Wouldn't it behoove me to listen to God and get my own ego, my pride and my autistic way of thinking out of the way?   Does not prideth come before a fall?  It is my pride in my own intelligence and thinking I could work things out that caused my own fall.

Sixth, How do you know that all disabled persons were able to get and keep a job for themselves and they didn't end up in prison, killing themselves or ended up in the nut houses?   Where is your evidence that all disabled people were able to get and keep jobs without any assistance from someone and they were able to work it out themselves.  When I mean disabled I mean those with both physical and mental handicaps including but not limited to limited mobility, schizophrenia and mental retardation? 

Finally, God, Everyone of you,my family, my shrink,  and disability support services are wiser than I so why wouldn't I receive help from those who are wise and listen to those who have more wisdom than I and ask questions so I came become wiser so I can be gainfully employed?   For those who tell me to work it out myself and use my own thinking are you not telling me to be a fool and disobey God?   Didn't disobedience to God cause Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and didn't this act cause sin to fall upon the world and curse the land?  Isn't sin and disobedience to God how the world came to be as it is today with disease, death and damnation?   So, why would you give me advice that would cause me to disobey God and rely upon my own thinking and ego (which doesn't work by the way) to obtain a job so I can not eat for physical sustenance but for spiritual sustenance as well?   Would I not be a fool, unwise, and prideful by "doing something for myself" when God who in his infinite wisdom, knowledge and love has told me not to through my pastor's teaching of God's word?

http://biblehub.com/romans/1-22.htm

MY GOD did not once tell me to have others find me a job.  There are job out there if you wish to work.  They my not be what you like right now.   But if a wet back can sweep, mop floors or wash dishes for a living staring out you can also. 

I would say I am over 3 time your age.  My generation would have shoveled cow shit for a living if needed, just to have work if out of work. 

I must remember never, ask you how to build a watch.   

Quote from: walkstall on November 25, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
MY GOD did not once tell me to have others find me a job.  There are job out there if you wish to work.  They my not be what you like right now.   But if a wet back can sweep, mop floors or wash dishes for a living staring out you can also. 

I would say I am over 3 time your age.  My generation would have shoveled cow shit for a living if needed, just to have work if out of work. 

I must remember never, ask you how to build a watch.

*Sighs in extreme frustration*   

I will ask again.   Why wouldn't it behoove me to go to others who are wiser than myself to help me to guide me through the whole process of becoming a "shit shoveler" if doing it myself has not worked out for me?   That's not wisdom at all.   To not go to others for assistance and guidance is utter foolishness and lunacy.    If my methods of applying worked and I was able to pass an interview even for a shit shoveler(I rarely even get interviews by the way even for the most menial jobs like shit shoveler) than wouldn't I be employed.   You were able to obtain jobs so you have wisdom to you.   I have no wisdom and am foolish so why wouldn't I go to those who are wise such as yourself, solar, or the disability support services.   You're asking me to use my own mind and my own brain.   That's unwise and foolish on my part and God told me that through my pastor's sermon about Kerria.  If one is color blind than would it behoove yourself to discuss color with me if my concept of color is diminished or have me do anything that relates with a color palette like painting and graphics design.  My own mind and thinking failed me.  God told me to get my thinking and mind out of the way and to go to others such as yourself, solar  the disability support services and/or those who are wise.

More than likely, if I get a job as a "shit shoveler" than I will be kicked off of SSDI anyway even though SSDI comes from what I did earn and what my previous jobs put up that and again I only received those jobs by only the grace of God and not by my own hands.   I will have a job.   Even if my SSDI does come from the taxpayers by the way (which is 100% wrong) than by doing what I'm doing wouldn't I be getting off of SSDI and contributing to society?   

As a foolish person, sinful person, and an unwise person with an Autism spectrum disorder that entails a pragmatic disorder why would I not seek assistance?   I don't follow your logic whatsoever and I don't understand why you as a God fearing man would want me to disobey God.  Finally, does our God tell everyone to do the exact same thing and go the exact same path?   For all I know maybe five years from now, God wants me to be like Jonah and go to different areas of the country to get others to repent of their sins.  Who knows?   

Why wouldn't God tell me to go to others for assistance and guidance but wouldn't tell you that same thing?   

In a metaphorical and spiritual way, am I not but a child who is foolish and unwise?    So, why wouldn't I as a metaphorical child go to the ones who are more mature in their wisdom and understanding so I as a child can be "Trained up in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A6&version=KJV

Not only what you say goes against all logic but it is not biblical whatsoever. 

Quote*Sighs in extreme frustration*

Welcome to the real world.



Then sit on your ass and stay home, like others of your generation.  The wet back will be more then happy for that starter job. 

Quote from: cubedemon on November 25, 2015, 07:06:00 AM
That is the same question I ask, how can I be expected to use my own autistic way of thinking, which is my nature, to be able to work things out myself to successfully get and keep a job if it is my very way of thinking that has caused my problems?

You assume that you are powerless to change. And in that attitude lies your failure. While there are those with autism who cannot hope to function in society, there are also those who can.  You are, obviously, the latter.  I have a daughter who is ASD also. And I find myself explaining to her, quite often, that being ASD is not an excuse. Yes, being ASD makes certain things more difficult, just as being deaf, blind, lame, etc. makes certain things more difficult. But it is not an excuse, as those with ANY type of disability prove on a daily basis when they refuse to allow their "difference" to hinder what they wish to do.

"With God, all things are possible." You recognize the fact that your "natural" thinking style leads you to trouble. That is more than half the battle: recognizing you have a problem ad what it is.  Second is to learn to compensate. The knowledge that your way of thinking is problematic allows you to step back from your natural tendencies, take a second look, and find a second way of thinking about the situation.They tell people with anger control issues to learn to "count to ten" (or similar delaying tactics) before reacting to a stimulus. People with ASD can learn to do the same thing: step back, pause (count to ten) and rethink the situation before acting. Of course, having that need would limit you from entering any field that requires quick reaction to unusual situations, but learning to compensate will open far more doors of possibility than it will close by making your reaction times slower.

But the bottom line is, you are NOT as helpless in your autism as you are allowing yourself to become. You know the problem, which is a major battle in itself.  Now you need to find how to compensate for it.

Quote from: walkstall on November 25, 2015, 11:44:26 AM
  Welcome to the real world.



Then sit on your ass and stay home, like others of your generation.  The wet back will be more then happy for that starter job.

The reason I am frustrated is because you can't or will not comprehend the facts that I've told you and you seem to just gloss over the content of what I do say.  I show the website that explains where SSDI and social security money comes from.   

a.   SSDI is a form of social security for those disabled people who qualify.

b.   One of the qualifications for SSDI is one has to be working and the work has to be for a certain amount of time.

c.  The money for my SSDI comes from the taxes I had to pay to it plus my employer's part.

d.  With the jobs I did have I earned my part and the employer's part to my particular pot.

e.  I only have access to my particular pot.  No one elses

f.   Therefore, the money I receive does not come from the taxpayers so it is not welfare. 

g.    The jobs I've had were given to me by the grace of God.  I didn't have to interview for them or earn them in anyway.

h.   I've tried to look for and obtain jobs on my own.  It didn't work.

i.  There are people out there called disability support services who will help me to get one as recommended by my psychologist. 

j.   More than likely, if I get a job through them I will be off of SSDI and making my own money.

k.  The money will be taxed and part of that tax will go to Social Security again.   

l.   Based upon these facts, I will be a hard working productive citizen through disability support services assistance and not on welfare even though I was never on welfare or receiving welfare to begin with.   Why am I wrong to go this route?

m.   All you  and others are doing is stating hackneyed and cliched one liners that say nothing keep repeating them like a robot with no critical thought or analysis behind them. 
 

Quote from: zewazir on November 25, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
You assume that you are powerless to change. And in that attitude lies your failure.

I never made this claim one iota.   What I said and I've been saying is that I need intricate assistance to do so.   

Quote from: zewazir on November 25, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
While there are those with autism who cannot hope to function in society, there are also those who can. 

I never denied this.    What I am saying is I that I need guidance by others to do so.   With guidance by others and certain questions I have answered by others (some questions have been answered) I can function.   

Quote from: zewazir on November 25, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
You are, obviously, the latter. 

What is the criteria that delineates the former from the latter?

Quote from: zewazir on November 25, 2015, 12:14:08 PM

QuoteI have a daughter who is ASD also. And I find myself explaining to her, quite often, that being ASD is not an excuse. Yes, being ASD makes certain things more difficult, just as being deaf, blind, lame, etc. makes certain things more difficult. But it is not an excuse, as those with ANY type of disability prove on a daily basis when they refuse to allow their "difference" to hinder what they wish to do.

In other words you're saying my own attitude is keeping me down and hindering.   Here is my logical problem with this sort of thinking.   I supposedly narcissistic and selfish since I am part of the younger generations.   Why would I purposely allow my own attitude to get in my way of being able to support myself?   Why would I do anything or not do anything that would bring harm and evil to myself?   This whole positive attitude and this whole negativity keeping me down goes against all grains of logic.    Let's say that it is my own attitude than by logic than it is unintentional.  Even then, it still doesn't refute the logic that I need to set myself aside and get help from others, right? 

Quote from: zewazir on November 25, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
"With God, all things are possible."

Quote from: zewazir on November 25, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
You recognize the fact that your "natural" thinking style leads you to trouble. That is more than half the battle: recognizing you have a problem ad what it is.  Second is to learn to compensate. The knowledge that your way of thinking is problematic allows you to step back from your natural tendencies, take a second look, and find a second way of thinking about the situation.They tell people with anger control issues to learn to "count to ten" (or similar delaying tactics) before reacting to a stimulus. People with ASD can learn to do the same thing: step back, pause (count to ten) and rethink the situation before acting. Of course, having that need would limit you from entering any field that requires quick reaction to unusual situations, but learning to compensate will open far more doors of possibility than it will close by making your reaction times slower.

I had to deal with a situation a few days ago my psychologist helped to clear up.   She walked me through the whole situation bit by bit.   This was when I had to go to the disability support services.  What I was told was I could bring my paperwork and meet this particular person there at anytime.  All I had to do was walk in and show up.   The receptionist there told me I had to make an appointment.   I felt like I was lied to and Bullshitted.  My psychologist told me "what I did wrong and that I assumed that this walk in policy applied to everyone and what I needed to say was that I did talk to the particular person over the phone and she told me to just come here at anytime.   What do I do now?"   You gave some specifics.   That's what I'm talking about.  I will try the 1-10 method as well and see what happens. 

So, I'm going to my psychologist, getting the assistance I need from her and the disability support group so I can be productive.    Why is this wrong in other people's eyes?   I thought I was taking the positive approach. 

Quote from: zewazir on November 25, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
But the bottom line is, you are NOT as helpless in your autism as you are allowing yourself to become. You know the problem, which is a major battle in itself.  Now you need to find how to compensate for it.

With assistance from my psychologist and the disability support services I can do so and maybe fit in missing pieces.   

What would be helpful is guidance and assistance from the average joe by answering questions, showing me where my reasoning is off and helping to define things.   

Example:   There are those who claim they want tolerance in different things yet what confuses me is that they're intolerant towards people who are intolerant.   How can one be absolutely tolerant by being tolerant of all things I would have to accept the things that are intolerable and by placing exceptions than I can't be absolutely tolerant.   So, how can one have tolerance as a virtue all of the time.  It's confusing and leads to a paradox. 

Quote from: cubedemon on November 25, 2015, 12:28:27 PM
Why am I wrong to go this route? 

That's the point Walks is making. You're not wrong to take any job, and I mean any job that earns you an income.
You yourself know that SSDI eventually ruins a person and makes them dependent, but a job, any job keeps the psyche strong and ready for the next challenge.

I knew a disabled guy that was cleaning a realestate office once a week, since he had the time, he hit up other business in the area and within a year was gainfully employed.
Last I heard he had hired several people and was looking to expand into landscaping.

Your biggest barrier is your own imagination. Find a partner to offset your roadblocks?

Quote from: zewazir on November 25, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
You assume that you are powerless to change. And in that attitude lies your failure. While there are those with autism who cannot hope to function in society, there are also those who can.  You are, obviously, the latter.  I have a daughter who is ASD also. And I find myself explaining to her, quite often, that being ASD is not an excuse. Yes, being ASD makes certain things more difficult, just as being deaf, blind, lame, etc. makes certain things more difficult. But it is not an excuse, as those with ANY type of disability prove on a daily basis when they refuse to allow their "difference" to hinder what they wish to do.

"With God, all things are possible." You recognize the fact that your "natural" thinking style leads you to trouble. That is more than half the battle: recognizing you have a problem ad what it is.  Second is to learn to compensate. The knowledge that your way of thinking is problematic allows you to step back from your natural tendencies, take a second look, and find a second way of thinking about the situation.They tell people with anger control issues to learn to "count to ten" (or similar delaying tactics) before reacting to a stimulus. People with ASD can learn to do the same thing: step back, pause (count to ten) and rethink the situation before acting. Of course, having that need would limit you from entering any field that requires quick reaction to unusual situations, but learning to compensate will open far more doors of possibility than it will close by making your reaction times slower.

But the bottom line is, you are NOT as helpless in your autism as you are allowing yourself to become. You know the problem, which is a major battle in itself.  Now you need to find how to compensate for it.

:thumbsup:

Sir I am not gifted with the words like you and cubedemon.  But I have learned to compensate for it all my life.  I have not let that stop me from being the best I could be.  On the Indian reservation they did not teach grammar or phonics only sight reading. 

Quote from: walkstall on November 25, 2015, 01:14:37 PM

:thumbsup:

Sir I am not gifted with the words like you and cubedemon.  But I have learned to compensate for it all my life.  I have not let that stop me from being the best I could be.  On the Indian reservation they did not teach grammar or phonics only sight reading.

We all learn to cope. I am dyslexic, but nobody told me. Therefore, I had to make adjustments to make the best of my situation. Fortunately, I was able to do that. That affliction is nowhere near autism, but it is an issue. After observing cubedemon for numerous posts now I have come to the conclusion he has accepted his condition as an excuse rather than a challenge to overcome to the best of his ability.

Quote from: supsalemgr on November 25, 2015, 01:37:54 PM
We all learn to cope. I am dyslexic, but nobody told me. Therefore, I had to make adjustments to make the best of my situation. Fortunately, I was able to do that. That affliction is nowhere near autism, but it is an issue. After observing cubedemon for numerous posts now I have come to the conclusion he has accepted his condition as an excuse rather than a challenge to overcome to the best of his ability.

Same here SSM, I too am dyslexic as Hell, but I never knew it, I assumed everyone had the same issue and the playing field was level.
Earlier I was thinking about all those in the past that were never diagnosed with afflictions, yet they somehow managed to make it in life, so just imagine if they had been told early on that they were disabled and would have trouble succeeding?

Myself, I was diagnosed in the 60s as severe ADHD, I knew I was different, so hyper, I even got on my own nerves.
But like so many of these so called afflictions, there is always an upside, and offset enhanced ability, and in my case, the ability to notice the most minute details which led to becoming a private investigator, which opened endless doors, and all because society deemed me incapable.

Quote from: Solar on November 25, 2015, 01:59:07 PM
Same here SSM, I too am dyslexic as Hell, but I never knew it, I assumed everyone had the same issue and the playing field was level.
Earlier I was thinking about all those in the past that were never diagnosed with afflictions, yet they somehow managed to make it in life, so just imagine if they had been told early on that they were disabled and would have trouble succeeding?

Myself, I was diagnosed in the 60s as severe ADHD, I knew I was different, so hyper, I even got on my own nerves.
But like so many of these so called afflictions, there is always an upside, and offset enhanced ability, and in my case, the ability to notice the most minute details which led to becoming a private investigator, which opened endless doors, and all because society deemed me incapable.

This BS all began in the late 60's. In the late 70's we were told our daughter had a learning disability. A  doctor friend/neighbor who had a daughter the same age and school said it was not a learning disability, but a teaching disability. I thought that was poignant at the time as he felt teachers were becoming lazy and this was an easy way out with children who were struggling somewhat in school..

Quote from: supsalemgr on November 25, 2015, 02:16:45 PM
This BS all began in the late 60's. In the late 70's we were told our daughter had a learning disability. A  doctor friend/neighbor who had a daughter the same age and school said it was not a learning disability, but a teaching disability. I thought that was poignant at the time as he felt teachers were becoming lazy and this was an easy way out with children who were struggling somewhat in school..

Bingo! Enters the drug companies drugging the gifted and exceptional to match that of the drone student that sits quietly at their desk bored to tears.
Hey, but the class was quiet and the teacher could hit the bottle in peace.

Quote from: supsalemgr on November 25, 2015, 02:16:45 PM
This BS all began in the late 60's. In the late 70's we were told our daughter had a learning disability. A  doctor friend/neighbor who had a daughter the same age and school said it was not a learning disability, but a teaching disability. I thought that was poignant at the time as he felt teachers were becoming lazy and this was an easy way out with children who were struggling somewhat in school..

We were told our son had a disability and he had to be tested.  After all the tests it came out he was just very hyperactive.  There work up sheet after all the tests, said that the teachers need to learn to deal with kids like him.  The teachers and school were not very happy.  :lol:   He made Ricochet Rabbit look like a amateur.

Quote from: walkstall on November 25, 2015, 02:35:32 PM
We were told our son had a disability and he had to be tested.  After all the tests it came out he was just very hyperactive.  There work up sheet after all the tests, said that the teachers need to learn to deal with kids like him.  The teachers and school were not very happy.  :lol:   He made Ricochet Rabbit look like a amateur.

In response to you and Solar. So now, 50 years later, look at the condition of our schools and what they are producing. I remember in grammar school my biggest fear was not getting promoted. I recall one kid in a class that did not get promoted. That was quite a motivator to me. Now kids are just "moved along" so as to not hurt their ego. BS!

Quote from: supsalemgr on November 26, 2015, 04:48:37 AM
In response to you and Solar. So now, 50 years later, look at the condition of our schools and what they are producing. I remember in grammar school my biggest fear was not getting promoted. I recall one kid in a class that did not get promoted. That was quite a motivator to me. Now kids are just "moved along" so as to not hurt their ego. BS!

I was one of those kids that did not get promoted in the first grade.  Even in sight reading.   That's why my three kids attended private school after the first grade.  They were going to get the best schooling we could give them. 

Quote from: walkstall on November 26, 2015, 06:33:06 AM
I was one of those kids that did not get promoted in the first grade.  Even in sight reading.   That's why my three kids attended private school after the first grade.  They were going to get the best schooling we could give them.

Preaching to choir on the subject and value of private school.

Quote from: supsalemgr on November 26, 2015, 07:35:59 AM
Preaching to choir on the subject and value of private school.

I hope the libs can learn from us.  The BS that's going on in the public schools in this day and age.   Before it's too late, at least I was not brain washed.

It is very interesting to state that "With God, All things are possible."    I would like you all to look at that phrase carefully as I dissect it into two parts.   The two parts are "With God" and "All things are possible."   The first part, "With God", is a constraint.   A constraint means that a statement can't hold up unless a conditional is met.   In other words, All things are possible is constrained only by God permitting it or allowing it to be so. 

Conditional Statement:  If God permits x, then x is possible.

Statement 2:   God permits x

Conclusion: X is possible.

This is what in formal logic is called modus ponens.   

Let's obtain the modus tollens of this.

We have the conditional statement which again says If God permits x, then x is possible.

Statement 2:   x is not possible.

Conclusion:   God did not permit x.

You all were able to work things out for yourselves when finding and keeping a job because God permitted you to do so. God gave you all what he thought you all should have through his divine, perfect, permissible and ultimate will.  He had and still has a purpose for everyone of you.   As I went to service, listened to what a man of God had to say, asked my questions of other Christains, reflected, washed, rinsed and repeated what God wants is to not do what you all did and do this whole figure it out yourself pull yourself by your own bootstraps thing.  God permitted this for you.   What God wants for me is to get my own thinking, my own self, and my own ego out of the way.   Solar, even you said to think outside the box and you're right.   I must think outside the box, my own box, my own thoughts, my own head and my own ego.  This means I have to submit myself to others and to God as well.   They have access to perceptions that is blind to me.  Should the blind lead the blind and should a fool lead a fool?   I am but blind to my own foolish machinations caused by my very processes.   These things got me into my own problems.   God does not permit me to use my own thoughts to pull myself up without the help and guidance of others through the father, the son and the holy spirit.  To do so would be to sin which means to disobey.  I thought I could work things out for myself and work outside the bounds of God when I'm but a foolish man with an Autism Spectrum Disorder accompanied by a social pragmatic disorder as well as Kroz said.  She is a testimonial as to what I am saying because she taught me a valuable lesson which was we can only prove or disprove only within the constructs of what we're permitted to understand by God's holy and divine providence.   So, what God permit is possible for me and everyone else and what is not possible for me and others is not what God permitted. 

Quote from: cubedemon on November 30, 2015, 06:55:05 AM
It is very interesting to state that "With God, All things are possible."    I would like you all to look at that phrase carefully as I dissect it into two parts.   The two parts are "With God" and "All things are possible."   The first part, "With God", is a constraint.   A constraint means that a statement can't hold up unless a conditional is met.   In other words, All things are possible is constrained only by God permitting it or allowing it to be so. 

Conditional Statement:  If God permits x, then x is possible.

Statement 2:   God permits x

Conclusion: X is possible.

This is what in formal logic is called modus ponens.   

Let's obtain the modus tollens of this.

We have the conditional statement which again says If God permits x, then x is possible.

Statement 2:   x is not possible.

Conclusion:   God did not permit x.

You all were able to work things out for yourselves when finding and keeping a job because God permitted you to do so. God gave you all what he thought you all should have through his divine, perfect, permissible and ultimate will.  He had and still has a purpose for everyone of you.   As I went to service, listened to what a man of God had to say, asked my questions of other Christains, reflected, washed, rinsed and repeated what God wants is to not do what you all did and do this whole figure it out yourself pull yourself by your own bootstraps thing.  God permitted this for you.   What God wants for me is to get my own thinking, my own self, and my own ego out of the way.   Solar, even you said to think outside the box and you're right.   I must think outside the box, my own box, my own thoughts, my own head and my own ego.  This means I have to submit myself to others and to God as well.   They have access to perceptions that is blind to me.  Should the blind lead the blind and should a fool lead a fool?   I am but blind to my own foolish machinations caused by my very processes.   These things got me into my own problems.   God does not permit me to use my own thoughts to pull myself up without the help and guidance of others through the father, the son and the holy spirit.  To do so would be to sin which means to disobey.  I thought I could work things out for myself and work outside the bounds of God when I'm but a foolish man with an Autism Spectrum Disorder accompanied by a social pragmatic disorder as well as Kroz said.  She is a testimonial as to what I am saying because she taught me a valuable lesson which was we can only prove or disprove only within the constructs of what we're permitted to understand by God's holy and divine providence.   So, what God permit is possible for me and everyone else and what is not possible for me and others is not what God permitted.

All based on a false premise.
God granted us free will.

Quote from: Solar on November 30, 2015, 07:56:17 AM
All based on a false premise.
God granted us free will.

True, God did give us free will.   It is true that we do have the capacity to go against God and his word.   We do have the free will to choose obedience and disobedience.   It is possible for one to pursue x because God permits us by giving us free will to do so.  There have been many people who thought they could become God, the alpha and omega, throughout human history.   Has anyone ever truthfully succeeded?   Even Julius Ceasar thought he could become greater than the North Star itself.  The North Star isn't God but the idea is similar.   What was his outcome in the end?  What has been to consequences to this type of thinking that we could become God or gods?  Have anyone ever had success with this endeavor?

We can choose to pursue things but can we ever choose the consequence and outcome of what we choose to pursue?  If yes, what is the extent of the choice to the consequences of what we all choose to do?  Do we have a bound and constraint to free will itself?   If yes, what are our bounds?  Is free will absolute and boundless?

Just because we have the free will to do x  like sin does this mean we should do it if God allows us to do so yet tells us not to or he says we're not to do so?

condition 1.  Do we have free will with boundaries that it is not possible for man to cross?

condition 2.  Do we have free will with unlimited boundaries?

condition 3.  Do we have free will that God allows us to do actions and makes it possible for us to do actions but has said "no, don't do this?"   

Is (condition 3 true in addition to condition 1 being true which means condition 2 is false) or is (condition 3 true in addition to condition 2 being true  which means condition 1 is false)?

Quote from: cubedemon on November 30, 2015, 10:23:41 AM
True, God did give us free will.   It is true that we do have the capacity to go against God and his word.   We do have the free will to choose obedience and disobedience.   It is possible for one to pursue x because God permits us by giving us free will to do so.  There have been many people who thought they could become God, the alpha and omega, throughout human history.   Has anyone ever truthfully succeeded?   Even Julius Ceasar thought he could become greater than the North Star itself.  The North Star isn't God but the idea is similar.   What was his outcome in the end?  What has been to consequences to this type of thinking that we could become God or gods?  Have anyone ever had success with this endeavor?

We can choose to pursue things but can we ever choose the consequence and outcome of what we choose to pursue?  If yes, what is the extent of the choice to the consequences of what we all choose to do?  Do we have a bound and constraint to free will itself?   If yes, what are our bounds?  Is free will absolute and boundless?

Just because we have the free will to do x  like sin does this mean we should do it if God allows us to do so yet tells us not to or he says we're not to do so?

condition 1.  Do we have free will with boundaries that it is not possible for man to cross?

condition 2.  Do we have free will with unlimited boundaries?

condition 3.  Do we have free will that God allows us to do actions and makes it possible for us to do actions but has said "no, don't do this?"   

Is (condition 3 true in addition to condition 1 being true which means condition 2 is false) or is (condition 3 true in addition to condition 2 being true  which means condition 1 is false)?

How would you know if God inhibited free will, does he slip you a note stating so, tap you on the shoulder, smack you upside the head, or simply end your life so you can't proceed?

Take Hiroshima, Nagasaki, horrible loss of life, yet God did not intervene.
Man cannot fly, yet we made it to the moon.

Do you ever ask yourself questions before posing them to others first?

Quote from: Solar on November 30, 2015, 11:42:14 AM
How would you know if God inhibited free will, does he slip you a note stating so, tap you on the shoulder, smack you upside the head, or simply end your life so you can't proceed?

Answer:  No one has ever been able to become him as far as I know.   Anyone who has tried seems to fall.

Quote from: Solar on November 30, 2015, 11:42:14 AM
Take Hiroshima, Nagasaki, horrible loss of life, yet God did not intervene.

True

Quote from: Solar on November 30, 2015, 11:42:14 AM
Man cannot fly, yet we made it to the moon.

True, we have indeed!   

Quote from: Solar on November 30, 2015, 11:42:14 AM
Do you ever ask yourself questions before posing them to others first?

Yes, but to get to a fuller view of truth and reality of things I need to be able to go outside of myself.   My view is incomplete and since my view is incomplete the conclusions I will draw more than likely will be incomplete as well.   

How do I explain this to you?   So difficult as it is difficult to find the right bandwidth to explain.  My brain, thoughts, wiring, etc is constrained.   I need to be able to expand outside of my own thoughts, wiring, bandwidth.   Imagine that I am a being who has the visible spectrum of Infra-Red to Green but can't see or perceive Indigo or violet.   Most people don't perceive Infra-Red but perceive Roy G. Biv or Red-Violet.   

I need to be able to to translate what you perceive in a way that I can understand.   For me to figure out things on my own within the limits of my neurology makes no sense and I need data including the thought processes including God to expland outside of my own brain.   

I tried to explain my point through your bandwidth and I thought I could but evidently through our exchanges here I failed.   I don't know why.   Must study and analyze more to understand your bandwidth.

Solar, why would I use my own brain when it is my very brain that led to my negative outcome?   That logic absolutely makes no sense.

Quote from: cubedemon on November 30, 2015, 01:19:20 PM
Solar, why would I use my own brain when it is my very brain that led to my negative outcome?   That logic absolutely makes no sense.

Like all of us, we are constrained by limitations as hemans, we were placed here as blank slates, no knowledge of where we came from or where we're headed, and that's the beauty of life.
It's never the destination, rather the journey that of importance.

We were also made with physical limitations, and absolutely no Godly powers for a reason, otherwise we'd ruin our journey as well as those around us.
I think maybe the question you're asking is bigger than man? Assuming you're asking if man can achieve beyond the limits of humanity, God like powers?
Sure you will, when you die and shed this jail of a body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3OXs_5AD2A

Watch this scene from the Matrix in which Neo meets the Architect.   The Architect tried to create the first Matrix as perfect.  It failed because people were imperfect.   The second one was the opposite and it failed as well.   So, the Architect realized that the solution to the problem of creating the perfect Matrix was beyond him, so he created the Oracle.

I think the idea that is inherent to this kind of applies to me.   I've been frustrated by failure no matter what things I've tried as the outcome.   So, I thought and thought and then I started thinking about how I thought and realized that the problem comes from my own thought processes.   If this is the case, than logically the solution to my issues can't from my own thought processes.   The solution has to come from a thinking and a mind that is different from my own.  Hence, my conclusion.   I need others to be able to provide guidance, instruction and answers to me.   The solution(s) to my problems can't come from my thinking since it is my thinking that causes the problem within our empirical and social construct.

If we go by Occam's Razor then we have to go by the most plausible of all explanations.   If I'm having issues functioning in society than the most plausible is that the problem lies within me and my thinking.  If that is the case, the solution lies outside of myself which is not a negative attitude but a conclusion derived by critical thinking which comes from my own thoughts.  Even if I am wrong does it not cause a paradox because I still have faulty thinking so therefore I have to be right by proof by paradox?

Quote from: supsalemgr on November 25, 2015, 01:37:54 PM
We all learn to cope. I am dyslexic, but nobody told me. Therefore, I had to make adjustments to make the best of my situation. Fortunately, I was able to do that. That affliction is nowhere near autism, but it is an issue. After observing cubedemon for numerous posts now I have come to the conclusion he has accepted his condition as an excuse rather than a challenge to overcome to the best of his ability.

We all learn to cope.  Huh?  What?   How do you even derive this?  Where do you get this from?   If everyone could truthfully cope like you claim than why are some people placed into mental institutions, group homes, prison or put a bullet into their head?

Here is where the issue lies.  Both you and WalkStall you say you could cope and you did cope.  Solar mentioned the disabled man he knew.   Problem is you're generalizing a small sample to the whole.   How do you know everyone or even the vast majority can cope and does cope?   

Let's look at this right here.  http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-12.pdf

If we all could cope or the majority of us could cope than why does it say on page 2, in the middle of paragraph two it says "About one-in-three adults aged 18 to 64 with disabilities were employed in 2011, while three out of every four adults within the same age group and without a disability were employed."

So what this says is that about 75% of people w/o disabilities were able to cope and are employed and about 67% of those with disabilities were not able to cope and are unemployed?  Why is this so?   Do we all in the 67% group have generally a negative attitude and is this the only thing keeping us down?   If we all could change this like the blowing wind than why haven't we done so especially if it would benefit us and enable us to keep jobs?   Your logic and walkstall's logic makes no sense and doesn't stand up to scrutiny?   Let's say all of these welfare programs were eliminated tomorrow including SSDI.  How do you guys know that those who are on these things would become employed?   What is the basis for all of this? 

All you all are doing is providing testimonials which is insufficient evidence for a claim made.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 01, 2015, 12:53:32 PM
We all learn to cope.  Huh?  What?   How do you even derive this?  Where do you get this from?   If everyone could truthfully cope like you claim than why are some people placed into mental institutions, group homes, prison or put a bullet into their head?

Here is where the issue lies.  Both you and WalkStall you say you could cope and you did cope.  Solar mentioned the disabled man he knew.   Problem is you're generalizing a small sample to the whole.   How do you know everyone or even the vast majority can cope and does cope?   

Let's look at this right here.  http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-12.pdf

If we all could cope or the majority of us could cope than why does it say on page 2, in the middle of paragraph two it says "About one-in-three adults aged 18 to 64 with disabilities were employed in 2011, while three out of every four adults within the same age group and without a disability were employed."

So what this says is that about 75% of people w/o disabilities were able to cope and are employed and about 67% of those with disabilities were not able to cope and are unemployed?  Why is this so?   Do we all in the 67% group have generally a negative attitude and is this the only thing keeping us down?   If we all could change this like the blowing wind than why haven't we done so especially if it would benefit us and enable us to keep jobs?   Your logic and walkstall's logic makes no sense and doesn't stand up to scrutiny?   Let's say all of these welfare programs were eliminated tomorrow including SSDI.  How do you guys know that those who are on these things would become employed?   What is the basis for all of this? 

All you all are doing is providing testimonials which is insufficient evidence for a claim made.

Every individuals and their circumstances are different. Therefore, I did not mean to make it general statement. However, what you mentioned about Walks, Solar and me reflects that people can overcome. The fact that you believe these are not evidence of people overcoming deficiencies confirms you have made the decision to dwell on the negative side of the issue.

I will end with a message a successful person I worked with shared with me over thirty years ago and I have never forgotten what he said.

"If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't. You are right".

Those are words that ring so true.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 01, 2015, 12:53:32 PM
We all learn to cope.  Huh?  What?   How do you even derive this?  Where do you get this from?   If everyone could truthfully cope like you claim than why are some people placed into mental institutions, group homes, prison or put a bullet into their head?

So are you saying you're a victim, or that you should be in that class?

QuoteHere is where the issue lies.  Both you and WalkStall you say you could cope and you did cope.  Solar mentioned the disabled man he knew.   Problem is you're generalizing a small sample to the whole.   How do you know everyone or even the vast majority can cope and does cope?   

Let's look at this right here.  http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-12.pdf

If we all could cope or the majority of us could cope than why does it say on page 2, in the middle of paragraph two it says "About one-in-three adults aged 18 to 64 with disabilities were employed in 2011, while three out of every four adults within the same age group and without a disability were employed."

Wow, so from that, you naturally surmised the group couldn't support themselves?
Have you ever heard of lying, dealing drugs, dealing in the underworld with the nefarious?

QuoteSo what this says is that about 75% of people w/o disabilities were able to cope and are employed and about 67% of those with disabilities were not able to cope and are unemployed?  Why is this so?   Do we all in the 67% group have generally a negative attitude and is this the only thing keeping us down?   If we all could change this like the blowing wind than why haven't we done so especially if it would benefit us and enable us to keep jobs?   Your logic and walkstall's logic makes no sense and doesn't stand up to scrutiny?   Let's say all of these welfare programs were eliminated tomorrow including SSDI.  How do you guys know that those who are on these things would become employed?   What is the basis for all of this? 

All you all are doing is providing testimonials which is insufficient evidence for a claim made.

Have you actually looked at the economy? Half the people of working age are technically unemployed, as by design by the Marxist.
The left doesn't like free mkt capitalism, they want people dependent upon govt, it's the next step towards communism.
So don't base anything on those numbers, anyway, not to support your claims.
Try going back to 2000 , or the late 80s census for a more accurate picture of what America looks like when it's functioning normally..

Quote from: Solar on December 01, 2015, 02:07:25 PM
So are you saying you're a victim, or that you should be in that class?

I never made any claim that I was a victim or that I was not a victim.  If I am a victim then I am a victim of my own ignorance and lack of understanding of things.  If I am a victim than I am a victim of not understanding as to how to gain wisdom and understanding.   Am I a victim of anything?   I have no clue and no way to derive if I am a victim or not a victim as I lack the wisdom that you have Solar.   


Since I am an ignorant man who knows not  here is what I do not understand.  The claim was made that we all learn to cope.   What is the basis for this claim that we "all" or even the vast majority learns to cope.   Those who were institutionalized could not cope.  Those who committed suicide did not cope.  Not only is all of these things are true for the history of the USA but it is true for human civilization.    What is the basis for this claim?   

Quote from: Solar on December 01, 2015, 02:07:25 PM
Wow, so from that, you naturally surmised the group couldn't support themselves?
Have you ever heard of lying, dealing drugs, dealing in the underworld with the nefarious?

Point taken.   You're right, the data would have to be analyzed further and I need to learn to analyze stats better.   I did not think of your criteria that you thought of. 

Quote from: Solar on December 01, 2015, 02:07:25 PM
Have you actually looked at the economy? Half the people of working age are technically unemployed, as by design by the Marxist.
The left doesn't like free mkt capitalism, they want people dependent upon govt, it's the next step towards communism.
So don't base anything on those numbers, anyway, not to support your claims.
Try going back to 2000 , or the late 80s census for a more accurate picture of what America looks like when it's functioning normally..

I will look at the 80s census when I have time.   

Quote from: cubedemon on December 01, 2015, 03:04:21 PM
I never made any claim that I was a victim or that I was not a victim.  If I am a victim then I am a victim of my own ignorance and lack of understanding of things.  If I am a victim than I am a victim of not understanding as to how to gain wisdom and understanding.   Am I a victim of anything?   I have no clue and no way to derive if I am a victim or not a victim as I lack the wisdom that you have Solar.   


Since I am an ignorant man who knows not  here is what I do not understand.  The claim was made that we all learn to cope.   What is the basis for this claim that we "all" or even the vast majority learns to cope.   Those who were institutionalized could not cope.  Those who committed suicide did not cope.  Not only is all of these things are true for the history of the USA but it is true for human civilization.    What is the basis for this claim?   


Point taken.   You're right, the data would have to be analyzed further and I need to learn to analyze stats better.   I did not think of your criteria that you thought of. 

I will look at the 80s census when I have time.

Ask yourself this. If you had no support whatsoever, could you feed and house yourself, even if it were a tent in the forest, shoveling shit for a living?
I ask, because it appears your expectations in life are way too high, you want success now, when in fact, truth is, most people don't even approach independence till their forties.

Case in point. I closed my business, bought a motorhome, and was preparing to head for Alaska, in the interim, I needed a place to park so I could get my affairs in order.
I had parked on a hill overlooking a cattle ranch and house, the next morning I drove down and inquired if I could park somewhere on their land.

The lady of the house said, (in a bad southern accent) Hang on a sec....
A few minutes later, a big guy walks out in a cowboy hat, steps up to my drivers side window, and without looking up, says, ever ran fence? Nope I said, ever ran cattle? Nope, ever rode a horse? I said 20 years back I did as a kid.
He said, park yonder, there's a plug for power, pays 1200.00 a month cash, see ya at 6:00 am.
I kid you not, and no, I wasn't looking for work, but it was the first day of the rest of my life towards independence.
And yes, all by the grace of God, for I had asked for guidance that night pondering the ranch house.

Point is, you have to be willing to step outside your comfort zone, skill or no skill, go for it.
I had no idea what being a cowboy meant, but I learned to tell the difference between an good lookin cow and an ugly one. :laugh:

It may be, that you're trying for results without actually getting your hands dirty. Lose the fear, put yourself out there, and get the Hell out of the city, because honestly, all it has to offer are service jobs, grunt work, until you have a skill people want, you aren't going to get hired till you've worked and can prove your worth. Yes, your worth is a skill.
Take a drive into the country and ask if anyone is hiring, for anything, that's when doors start opening, but they won't open if you sit around and wait.

cubedemon, when 2 is missing or B is missing your dead in the water.  You waste your time looking for 2 or B before moving on.   I just move around them and keep moving on.  Sometime down the line 2 and B will fall in line if there needed.   We all have or 2's and B's in our life but we don't let that stop us.  You are young, why die looking for something you my no even need. 

Life is short, get out and do something on your own for yourself even if it's wrong.   I can remember being told as a young pup, don't just sit there, do something even if it's wrong at least you tried and did something.   As kids we learned a lot behind the old woodshed.  More dad's should doing that even now.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: walkstall on December 01, 2015, 03:55:03 PM
cubedemon, when 2 is missing or B is missing your dead in the water.  You waste your time looking for 2 or B before moving on.   I just move around them and keep moving on.  Sometime down the line 2 and B will fall in line if there needed.   We all have or 2's and B's in our life but we don't let that stop us.  You are young, why die looking for something you my no even need. 

Life is short, get out and do something on your own for yourself even if it's wrong.   I can remember being told as a young pup, don't just sit there, do something even if it's wrong at least you tried and did something.   As kids we learned a lot behind the old woodshed.  More dad's should doing that even now.   :thumbsup:

In truth, I think he's just scared, he doesn't have faith in his own abilities, doesn't want to leave his comfort zone.
Quite understandably, but until he does, he can only look 20 years down the road, and this is his life, nothing will change, until he changes it.

Good or bad, that really is it in a nutshell, it's that way for everyone, we all have to take chances if we don't like our station in life.

Quote from: Solar on December 01, 2015, 05:02:45 PM
In truth, I think he's just scared, he doesn't have faith in his own abilities, doesn't want to leave his comfort zone.
Quite understandably, but until he does, he can only look 20 years down the road, and this is his life, nothing will change, until he changes it.

Good or bad, that really is it in a nutshell, it's that way for everyone, we all have to take chances if we don't like our station in life.

Can you tell me more about the country please?  What is it like?  Are the people friendly?  Is the pace slowly?   Can one stop to think and reflect and slow down?  Is it like Willoughby?  I wish I could live in a place like Willoughby.    https://vimeo.com/89150452

Quote from: Solar on December 01, 2015, 03:35:10 PM
Ask yourself this. If you had no support whatsoever, could you feed and house yourself, even if it were a tent in the forest, shoveling shit for a living?
I ask, because it appears your expectations in life are way too high, you want success now, when in fact, truth is, most people don't even approach independence till their forties.

I asked myself that question the question you asked me and I have no earthly clue.   I wouldn't even know how to survive in the forest or pitch a tent whatsoever.   In fact, I don't even have a clue as to how to obtain a job shoveling shit for a living.   I wouldn't even know where to go, what to say, or what to put on my resume that would get me the position of shoveling shit.   Another thing, employers these days give out personality tests and not only are the questions are confusing but the very structure of the test is confusing.

I remember applying for a job at staples.   One of the personality test questions was do I believe that life is unfair?   It was extremely confusing.

The problem with this question is that it is not an opinion based question.  Life is unfair is a statement of fact.   We can look at the starving children in Africa and what goes on in North Korea.

That's assuming fair is being used in this particular context.   We also have fair as in average including numerical averages.   Since, life contains man and man invented math or came up with it and math contains the concept of average than life contains averages such as (5+2+2)/3 = 3.   In the mathematical context life is fair.   Another context is that of a feeling towards.  The average belief is that pedophilia is wrong.   Life is fair.   

If we look at it through strictly through the literal context which says if life isn't fair and if fair means proper under the rules then life is not proper under the rules.  Yet, if life is not proper under the rules than how would this hold up?   

As you see, I did not know how to answer such a question as the question is to vague and the question and other questions such as these are context dependent. 

Quote from: Solar on December 01, 2015, 03:35:10 PM

Case in point. I closed my business, bought a motorhome, and was preparing to head for Alaska, in the interim, I needed a place to park so I could get my affairs in order.
I had parked on a hill overlooking a cattle ranch and house, the next morning I drove down and inquired if I could park somewhere on their land.

The lady of the house said, (in a bad southern accent) Hang on a sec....
A few minutes later, a big guy walks out in a cowboy hat, steps up to my drivers side window, and without looking up, says, ever ran fence? Nope I said, ever ran cattle? Nope, ever rode a horse? I said 20 years back I did as a kid.
He said, park yonder, there's a plug for power, pays 1200.00 a month cash, see ya at 6:00 am.
I kid you not, and no, I wasn't looking for work, but it was the first day of the rest of my life towards independence.
And yes, all by the grace of God, for I had asked for guidance that night pondering the ranch house.

I don't understand the conversation that took place here.   This is what I do understand.   In this little narrative that took place I do know that there were three characters Solar, lady with bad southern accent, and big guy with a cowboy hat.   The big guy asks a series of questions.   He tells you to park at a specific spot he calls yonder.   Here is where I am extremely and utterly confused and here is where my pragmatic disorder may be coming into play here.   So, this big guy with the cow boy hat is paying you $1200.00 month cash to park in a specific place called yonder to charge your vehicle?     All of a sudden you became a cowboy by plugging in your vehicle and he paid you to plug and charge your vehicle.   Why would he have you get up at 6 am if he was paying you $1200.00 a month to charge your vehicle?   How does cowboy all of a sudden come up in conversation and how did you become a cowboy from this?

Am I missing something here and misunderstanding the conversation you had with the big guy with the cowboy hat?   Or, is he paying you to be a cowboy along with the tasks that come along with the job?   More than likely this has to be true because paying someone to charge their vehicle $1200.00 per month makes no sense.   

No offense, but the conversation seemed very choppy and because of this it can be easily misconstrued.  It comes across to me as though you were being paid to charge your vehicle.   

Can you explain the cowboy's manner of speech to me and help me to understand it if you do not mind?   To me, it is less formal and less pedantic than the way I speak.   

Quote from: supsalemgr on December 01, 2015, 01:28:59 PM
I will end with a message a successful person I worked with shared with me over thirty years ago and I have never forgotten what he said.

"If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't. You are right".

Those are words that ring so true.

That message comes from Henry Ford I believe.   From maxims and axioms we can have corollaries that can follow.  Here is a corollary that follows.  Corollary 1:  The communists and the socialists believe they can make their system work and create a utopia and worker's paradise.   We will call Henry Ford's proposition Maxim 1.  Corollary 1 is false.   No matter what communists and socialists communism and socialism has not be able to work. 

What we have is this

Premise 1: If Maxim 1 then Corollary 1.

Premise 2: Maxim 1

Conclusion: Corollary 1.

Yet the conclusion turns out to be false.

Again what we have is this

Premise 1:  If Maxim 1 then Corollary 1.

Premise 2:  Not (Corollary 1)

Conclusion Not (Maxim 1)

What this says is that if Henry Ford said this "If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't. You are right" and it is true than it must follow that the very beliefs by the followers of Socialism and Communism that they can make it work will eventually make it work.   So far, these beliefs have not panned out so in this case Henry Ford's maxim must be false.   Which means there is at least one case in reality in which belief does not determine whether one can or can't.   If Ford's maxim is falsified in this case then I have to ask what other cases is it falsified in?  What are the specific measures to determine the truth and falseness of Ford's maxim in different cases?

cubedemon, you need to get a babysitter for yourself.  Sit on your ass, and let the world feel sorry for you. 

My cat has more get up and go then you will ever have. 

You should check into how to become a Monk.   :rolleyes:

Quote from: cubedemon on December 02, 2015, 06:11:29 AM
I asked myself that question the question you asked me and I have no earthly clue.   I wouldn't even know how to survive in the forest or pitch a tent whatsoever.   In fact, I don't even have a clue as to how to obtain a job shoveling shit for a living.   I wouldn't even know where to go, what to say, or what to put on my resume that would get me the position of shoveling shit.   Another thing, employers these days give out personality tests and not only are the questions are confusing but the very structure of the test is confusing.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The short answer is. You walk into the local store gas station/min-mart/hardware store, and simply ask anyone,, including the clerk, "is anyone hiring around here?
If they ask what do you do? Tell them you're just starting out with no skill but will work hard to learn.
Most likely they will know someone that needs some basic labor, stacking wood, raking leaves, cleaning rain gutters.
Say you love it, got an address?

QuoteI remember applying for a job at staples.   One of the personality test questions was do I believe that life is unfair?   It was extremely confusing.

The answer is no, always no, even if you have to lie, they wanted to see how you view life.

QuoteThe problem with this question is that it is not an opinion based question.  Life is unfair is a statement of fact.   We can look at the starving children in Africa and what goes on in North Korea.

Meaningless! You looked at all the bad in the world and failed to see the good being done by volunteers to make life better for the suffering.
They wanted your perspective and you gave it, that was dumb, the answer will always be no, PERIOD!

QuoteThat's assuming fair is being used in this particular context.   We also have fair as in average including numerical averages.   Since, life contains man and man invented math or came up with it and math contains the concept of average than life contains averages such as (5+2+2)/3 = 3.   In the mathematical context life is fair.   Another context is that of a feeling towards.  The average belief is that pedophilia is wrong.   Life is fair.   

If we look at it through strictly through the literal context which says if life isn't fair and if fair means proper under the rules then life is not proper under the rules.  Yet, if life is not proper under the rules than how would this hold up?   

As you see, I did not know how to answer such a question as the question is to vague and the question and other questions such as these are context dependent.

By life rules, it was not designed to be fair, that's a given, but your answer reflects how you view life, and if you don't think you've been treated fairly, from this, they will glean that you will steal to make it fair for you.

QuoteI don't understand the conversation that took place here.   This is what I do understand.   In this little narrative that took place I do know that there were three characters Solar, lady with bad southern accent, and big guy with a cowboy hat.   The big guy asks a series of questions.   He tells you to park at a specific spot he calls yonder.   Here is where I am extremely and utterly confused and here is where my pragmatic disorder may be coming into play here.   So, this big guy with the cow boy hat is paying you $1200.00 month cash to park in a specific place called yonder to charge your vehicle?     All of a sudden you became a cowboy by plugging in your vehicle and he paid you to plug and charge your vehicle.   Why would he have you get up at 6 am if he was paying you $1200.00 a month to charge your vehicle?   How does cowboy all of a sudden come up in conversation and how did you become a cowboy from this?

That's exactly how the conversation went.
In essence he hired me and told me I could plug into his power for free, that was part of my salary of $1200. per month.

QuoteAm I missing something here and misunderstanding the conversation you had with the big guy with the cowboy hat?   Or, is he paying you to be a cowboy along with the tasks that come along with the job?   More than likely this has to be true because paying someone to charge their vehicle $1200.00 per month makes no sense.

He hired me to do the job of a cowboy, even though I had no experience.

QuoteNo offense, but the conversation seemed very choppy and because of this it can be easily misconstrued.  It comes across to me as though you were being paid to charge your vehicle.

That's how it works in the real world, sometimes people don't like to talk, and as it turned out, over the next two years, John, the owner and I probably had no more than an entire day of conversation, he is a very quiet guy, much of his language was in the form of facial expression, and for me, quite legible, but for you, an alien language.

QuoteCan you explain the cowboy's manner of speech to me and help me to understand it if you do not mind?   To me, it is less formal and less pedantic than the way I speak.

The average cowboy believes in America. Believes in always doing the right thing, your word, a handshake is as good as a contract, if you say you will do something, they will take you at your word.
If you do not do as you said you would, you broke your word and ruined their trust.
That's how America used to be for most of us, and beyond the city lines, still is.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 02, 2015, 06:29:13 AM
That message comes from Henry Ford I believe.   From maxims and axioms we can have corollaries that can follow.  Here is a corollary that follows.  Corollary 1:  The communists and the socialists believe they can make their system work and create a utopia and worker's paradise.   We will call Henry Ford's proposition Maxim 1.  Corollary 1 is false.   No matter what communists and socialists communism and socialism has not be able to work. 

What we have is this

Premise 1: If Maxim 1 then Corollary 1.

Premise 2: Maxim 1

Conclusion: Corollary 1.

Yet the conclusion turns out to be false.

Again what we have is this

Premise 1:  If Maxim 1 then Corollary 1.

Premise 2:  Not (Corollary 1)

Conclusion Not (Maxim 1)

What this says is that if Henry Ford said this "If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't. You are right" and it is true than it must follow that the very beliefs by the followers of Socialism and Communism that they can make it work will eventually make it work.   So far, these beliefs have not panned out so in this case Henry Ford's maxim must be false.   Which means there is at least one case in reality in which belief does not determine whether one can or can't.   If Ford's maxim is falsified in this case then I have to ask what other cases is it falsified in?  What are the specific measures to determine the truth and falseness of Ford's maxim in different cases?

Once again you have over analyzed the quote. It's point is about attitude. Have a good day.

Quote from: Solar on December 02, 2015, 07:00:05 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The short answer is. You walk into the local store gas station/min-mart/hardware store, and simply ask anyone,, including the clerk, "is anyone hiring around here?
If they ask what do you do? Tell them you're just starting out with no skill but will work hard to learn.
Most likely they will know someone that needs some basic labor, stacking wood, raking leaves, cleaning rain gutters.
Say you love it, got an address?
The answer is no, always no, even if you have to lie, they wanted to see how you view life.

So, it's simple just like that?   

Quote from: Solar on December 02, 2015, 07:00:05 AM
Meaningless! You looked at all the bad in the world and failed to see the good being done by volunteers to make life better for the suffering.
They wanted your perspective and you gave it, that was dumb, the answer will always be no, PERIOD!

I'm going to do something different.  I'm not going to question this any further and accept your answer as a given.   I will just put no from now on and not think about it any further.

Quote from: Solar on December 02, 2015, 07:00:05 AM
By life rules, it was not designed to be fair, that's a given, but your answer reflects how you view life, and if you don't think you've been treated fairly, from this, they will glean that you will steal to make it fair for you.

Okay, I didn't know this.   I didn't know that was their interpretation.   I will keep that in mind from now on.  I'm not going to analyze this further and will accept this as given. 

Quote from: Solar on December 02, 2015, 07:00:05 AM
That's exactly how the conversation went.
In essence he hired me and told me I could plug into his power for free, that was part of my salary of $1200. per month.
 
He hired me to do the job of a cowboy, even though I had no experience.

You know what, that's awesome.  Did he train you and was it a learning curve for you?   I do have a concern.   When it comes to physical labor type jobs I am slow.   This is an issue for me.   The person I could work for when shoveling shit or doing whatever will have a certain productivity level or a certain amount shit shoveled in a given amount of time.   Are there any methods and techniques I can do to increase my productivity level and go a bit faster?

I will say this.   I was able to put some shelves up from Ikea on the wall.  The first time I did it for the pantry I had problems doing it because I had problems centering the shelves.  Low and behold it was suggested to me by a worker in Home Depot that I use what is called a level ruler. 

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v2/729677524_2/BESTIR-taiwan-construction-and-manufacturing-tools-precision-measurement-germany-standard-1500mm-bubble-level-ruler-NO-01308.jpg

I also use stud solvers that I drill into the wall before I use regular screws.  I screw the frames that the shelves will rest on using a screw into the stud solver.   These stud solvers are very sturdy. 

It is a learning curve.   
   

Quote from: Solar on December 02, 2015, 07:00:05 AM
That's how it works in the real world, sometimes people don't like to talk, and as it turned out, over the next two years, John, the owner and I probably had no more than an entire day of conversation, he is a very quiet guy, much of his language was in the form of facial expression, and for me, quite legible, but for you, an alien language.

If I worked for him or someone like him I would probably get used to him.
 

Quote from: Solar on December 02, 2015, 07:00:05 AM
The average cowboy believes in America. Believes in always doing the right thing, your word, a handshake is as good as a contract, if you say you will do something, they will take you at your word.
If you do not do as you said you would, you broke your word and ruined their trust.
That's how America used to be for most of us, and beyond the city lines, still is.

I dream of living in an area such as this.  Where my word is my bond, I can take time to reflect and live my life with full measure, and things are simple.   So, the country is like this?   If it is, than it is not America I have issues with but a segment  of America namely the urban/suburban.   

I really want to know more about how you live Solar in the country?   Is it like Willoughby in the Twilight Zone episode?

Quote from: supsalemgr on December 02, 2015, 08:21:08 AM
Once again you have over analyzed the quote. It's point is about attitude. Have a good day.

Why does attitude matter so much so that it is more valued than logic, reason and rationality?   To me attitude is over-emphasized in our society and logic, facts, reason and rationality is under-emphasized.  I remember I did have a job for a week and a half before I was fired for going to slow.  We had to go from classroom to classroom in a school.  I remember seeing a quote on a post that said this by "Attitude is more important than facts."   

I stood there wide eyed and gawking and thinking What the Fuck?   How is attitude more important than the facts themselves?   Why is this so?   

Why is it when I ask logical questions, use reason, and use facts instead of using logic and reason with me the first thing on this site and other sites and IRL is to look at my attitude?   Why?   Why do people do this?   Why is attitude treated as building blocks of reality itself by people in American society?

Quote from: walkstall on December 02, 2015, 06:56:50 AM
cubedemon, you need to get a babysitter for yourself.  Sit on your ass, and let the world feel sorry for you. 

My cat has more get up and go then you will ever have. 

You should check into how to become a Monk.   :rolleyes:

Why did you respond like this? Why question my character instead of the logic of what I said?   Why do people do this?     How did you derive this as a logical response from my logical analysis of Ford's quote?   Again, why is my attitude focused on first?   

Quote from: cubedemon on December 02, 2015, 03:35:13 PM
Why did you respond like this? Why question my character instead of the logic of what I said?   Why do people do this?     How did you derive this as a logical response from my logical analysis of Ford's quote?   Again, why is my attitude focused on first?

It's your ATTITUDE that is holding you back!! 

Quote from: cubedemon on December 02, 2015, 02:14:36 PM
So, it's simple just like that?   

Yes, it's that easy.

QuoteI'm going to do something different.  I'm not going to question this any further and accept your answer as a given.   I will just put no from now on and not think about it any further.

Okay, I didn't know this.   I didn't know that was their interpretation.   I will keep that in mind from now on.  I'm not going to analyze this further and will accept this as given. 

Simplicity is the key, keep life simple.

QuoteYou know what, that's awesome.  Did he train you and was it a learning curve for you?   I do have a concern.   When it comes to physical labor type jobs I am slow.   This is an issue for me.   The person I could work for when shoveling shit or doing whatever will have a certain productivity level or a certain amount shit shoveled in a given amount of time.   Are there any methods and techniques I can do to increase my productivity level and go a bit faster?

Yes, it was awesome, because it was another step in the direction my future took.
And no, no real learning curve, except when it came to breeding, birthing, polling calves, branding castrating/cauterizing, and that took one lesson, the rest was simple commonsense.
The mucking out/shit shoveling you do with a tractor.

QuoteI will say this.   I was able to put some shelves up from Ikea on the wall.  The first time I did it for the pantry I had problems doing it because I had problems centering the shelves.  Low and behold it was suggested to me by a worker in Home Depot that I use what is called a level ruler. 

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v2/729677524_2/BESTIR-taiwan-construction-and-manufacturing-tools-precision-measurement-germany-standard-1500mm-bubble-level-ruler-NO-01308.jpg

I also use stud solvers that I drill into the wall before I use regular screws.  I screw the frames that the shelves will rest on using a screw into the stud solver.   These stud solvers are very sturdy. 

It is a learning curve.   

This is why I say "Get Out There, Take The Leap", because you can read every book on every subject, study the directions till you're 80, but you'll never be an expert till you actually do the job.

QuoteIf I worked for him or someone like him I would probably get used to him.

You would, because he spoke little, gave yo a list of what needed done, and you did it that day, or by the end of the week didn't matter, as long as it was done in time for the season.

QuoteI dream of living in an area such as this.  Where my word is my bond, I can take time to reflect and live my life with full measure, and things are simple.   So, the country is like this?   If it is, than it is not America I have issues with but a segment  of America namely the urban/suburban.

Then I'd definitely suggest ranch hand, where room and board is included, anyway, most ranches have housing for the help, but you have to feed yourself on the ranch, but cattle drives, they feed you because you're usually 20 or miles from a store.
To the right person, it's a dream job, to others, it's pure Hell, myself, I loved the Hell out of it....

Here is one of the 4 ranches he and his brother owned. It was sad to see him sell off this last ranch, it was a beautiful piece of history.
The show Bonanza filmed a lot of their back scenes there, long before I worked there.
http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/article/20120309/NEWS/120309906

QuoteI really want to know more about how you live Solar in the country?   Is it like Willoughby in the Twilight Zone episode?

It's far easier than living in a city...
And yes, depending where in the country you go, much of it is still like Willoughby, kind of.
Just be sure you avoid large towns, stay way off the beaten path. Maybe someone from the South knows some areas like that, or even in Texas, though it's getting crowded too.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 02, 2015, 03:32:11 PM
Why does attitude matter so much so that it is more valued than logic, reason and rationality?   To me attitude is over-emphasized in our society and logic, facts, reason and rationality is under-emphasized.  I remember I did have a job for a week and a half before I was fired for going to slow.  We had to go from classroom to classroom in a school.  I remember seeing a quote on a post that said this by "Attitude is more important than facts."   

I stood there wide eyed and gawking and thinking What the Fuck?   How is attitude more important than the facts themselves?   Why is this so?   

Why is it when I ask logical questions, use reason, and use facts instead of using logic and reason with me the first thing on this site and other sites and IRL is to look at my attitude?   Why?   Why do people do this?   Why is attitude treated as building blocks of reality itself by people in American society?

Because it works. In most cases we cannot change certain circumstances in life, but we can control how we approach those circumstances.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 02, 2015, 03:32:11 PM
Why is attitude treated as building blocks of reality itself by people in American society?

Because reality is what it is. A person can wail against it, or make something new of it. Two different people buy two old barns on two small pieces of property.  Each one opens the door and finds half the floor space of the barn occupied by a gigantic pile of rotting horse and bovine waste.

Person one whines and cried about the unfairness of the greedy a-hole that sold him the crappy barn, then spends $500 to hire another person to take their tractor and haul off the aged manure.

Person two goes out and buys a garden tractor, uses it to haul out person one's manure, adds it to his, and makes a killing selling organic fertilizer to local gardeners.

Attitude. If you see the world as out to get you, and yourself as a helpless victim, then that is how your life is going to go. (That includes any and all mental and/or physical difficulties a person may have.)

If, OTOH, you see the world as a set of undisclosed opportunities waiting to be discovered, then you have a far better chance of achieving the life style you want.

Quote from: zewazir on December 03, 2015, 03:39:44 PM
Because reality is what it is. A person can wail against it, or make something new of it. Two different people buy two old barns on two small pieces of property.  Each one opens the door and finds half the floor space of the barn occupied by a gigantic pile of rotting horse and bovine waste.

Person one whines and cried about the unfairness of the greedy a-hole that sold him the crappy barn, then spends $500 to hire another person to take their tractor and haul off the aged manure.

Person two goes out and buys a garden tractor, uses it to haul out person one's manure, adds it to his, and makes a killing selling organic fertilizer to local gardeners.

Attitude. If you see the world as out to get you, and yourself as a helpless victim, then that is how your life is going to go. (That includes any and all mental and/or physical difficulties a person may have.)

If, OTOH, you see the world as a set of undisclosed opportunities waiting to be discovered, then you have a far better chance of achieving the life style you want.

Are you saying that reality and existence itself has some dependence on my thoughts?   How is that so?   I remember I had to charge a car battery.  I didn't believe I would successfully do it and in fact I thought I would screw up the car in spite of downloading instructions.   By the logic of this whole attitude thing, I should have failed at it yet I was able to charge the car.  How did I charge the car if my lack of believing and having a negative attitude should've caused it not to charge?   What is the extent of the dependent relationship of reality against my attitude?   What is the limit and constraint?

Quote from: cubedemon on December 03, 2015, 04:23:29 PM
Are you saying that reality and existence itself has some dependence on my thoughts?   How is that so?   I remember I had to charge a car battery.  I didn't believe I would successfully do it and in fact I thought I would screw up the car in spite of downloading instructions.   By the logic of this whole attitude thing, I should have failed at it yet I was able to charge the car.  How did I charge the car if my lack of believing and having a negative attitude should've caused it not to charge?   What is the extent of the dependent relationship of reality against my attitude?   What is the limit and constraint?

First, no I am not saying reality is dependent on how a person thinks.  Reality IS WHAT IT IS. Only liberals think that reality is what should change when reality and perception conflict.

What I AM saying is SUCCESS depends on how a person thinks. If they think they will fail, then that increases the chances of failure. The attitude in which a person thinks they are going to fail makes failure certain if that attitude prevents them from even trying.  Also, think about it this way: how much EFFORT will the average person put into a project if they are convinced it will end in failure? OTOH, how much effort will a person put into a project in which they are convinced they can (not necessarily WILL, but CAN) succeed?

No one likes to waste effort.  Not even a workaholic is going to choose a method which is deliberately less efficient than a known alternate method. And what will be the thought about attempting a goal which a person is certain of failure?  They won't want to waste the effort. So they don't try.  Or, if they do try, they are more likely to minimize the effort they put into the attempt.

In the barns full of crap analogy, there was no reality changed by the differing attitudes. Both hypothetical subjects had purchased an old barn, both found them full of old dung. But the results stemming from the situation were vastly different due to how each person approached the problem of having purchased a barn full of crap. Life is not about circumstances, but how we react to them.  And attitude plays a HUGE role in how an individual is most likely to react to a set of circumstances.  Those who tend toward a "helpless victim" attitude are less likely to put in the effort it takes to overcome challenges.  People with the proverbial "Can do!" are enormously more likely to achieve success out of ANY circumstances becaue they are willing to put in the effort it takes to overcome challenges.  This includes the challenges that come from failing on the first attempt. (or second, or third, or twenty-third.)

You charged your car because you did not allow your belief in failure to prevent you from trying. Reality was not changed.  You had a flat battery, and a charger. But, despite your fears, you went ahead and tried. And that led to success.  Learn to apply that basic experience to the rest of your life. Success ONLY comes from trying. Admittedly, a lot of failure comes from trying, too. But NOT trying GUARANTEES failure. A half-hearted attempt is more likely to fail that an all-out attempt. Think of it as a spectrum.

Success, whether small or major, is never guaranteed. That's just the way life (reality) is. But attitude CAN guarantee failure IF YOU ALLOW IT TO. You did not allow it to do so when charging your car. Learn from that. Failure is ONLY guaranteed if you allow your attitude to prevent you from trying.

You keep saying you cannot function/succeed in general life without a lot of assistance. Well, in your battery charging story, you've just admitted that you've already proven yourself wrong.

Quote from: zewazir on December 04, 2015, 08:35:18 AM
First, no I am not saying reality is dependent on how a person thinks.  Reality IS WHAT IT IS. Only liberals think that reality is what should change when reality and perception conflict.

What I AM saying is SUCCESS depends on how a person thinks. If they think they will fail, then that increases the chances of failure. The attitude in which a person thinks they are going to fail makes failure certain if that attitude prevents them from even trying.  Also, think about it this way: how much EFFORT will the average person put into a project if they are convinced it will end in failure? OTOH, how much effort will a person put into a project in which they are convinced they can (not necessarily WILL, but CAN) succeed?

No one likes to waste effort.  Not even a workaholic is going to choose a method which is deliberately less efficient than a known alternate method. And what will be the thought about attempting a goal which a person is certain of failure?  They won't want to waste the effort. So they don't try.  Or, if they do try, they are more likely to minimize the effort they put into the attempt.

In the barns full of crap analogy, there was no reality changed by the differing attitudes. Both hypothetical subjects had purchased an old barn, both found them full of old dung. But the results stemming from the situation were vastly different due to how each person approached the problem of having purchased a barn full of crap. Life is not about circumstances, but how we react to them.  And attitude plays a HUGE role in how an individual is most likely to react to a set of circumstances.  Those who tend toward a "helpless victim" attitude are less likely to put in the effort it takes to overcome challenges.  People with the proverbial "Can do!" are enormously more likely to achieve success out of ANY circumstances becaue they are willing to put in the effort it takes to overcome challenges.  This includes the challenges that come from failing on the first attempt. (or second, or third, or twenty-third.)

You charged your car because you did not allow your belief in failure to prevent you from trying. Reality was not changed.  You had a flat battery, and a charger. But, despite your fears, you went ahead and tried. And that led to success.  Learn to apply that basic experience to the rest of your life. Success ONLY comes from trying. Admittedly, a lot of failure comes from trying, too. But NOT trying GUARANTEES failure. A half-hearted attempt is more likely to fail that an all-out attempt. Think of it as a spectrum.

Success, whether small or major, is never guaranteed. That's just the way life (reality) is. But attitude CAN guarantee failure IF YOU ALLOW IT TO. You did not allow it to do so when charging your car. Learn from that. Failure is ONLY guaranteed if you allow your attitude to prevent you from trying.

You keep saying you cannot function/succeed in general life without a lot of assistance. Well, in your battery charging story, you've just admitted that you've already proven yourself wrong.

Wow,  I understand your words and I can follow your structure and flow.  They're logical, consistent and coherent.  Your words are complete as well.   

This is what you're saying in more formal logical terms. 

For all cases I do something and the more I frequently do this something  S, the higher the probability I will have success but there are no guarantees. 

For all cases I do nothing I'm guaranteed to fail at what I don't try to do. 

These are our logical constraints of what we're talking about, correct?

If this is the case, then why don't people say it like this?  Why do they say it in a more emotional, abstract and vague way instead of something that logically flows and is concrete (which is how you said it)?

Both liberals and conservatives seem to say things in a more emotional, abstract and vague way conservatives less so though it seems like.   

With my jumping of the car I was able to find the instructions and I was able to understand them.   When I think back to those instructions, the instructions were very specific and concrete.  Positive had to be connected to positive and negative had to be connected to negative.  In other words, red with red, black with black. 

Here is where the issues I have lie.  When I go to look up career and job advice what I find is this.   The advice is vague, contradictory and it makes no sense. All I see is a whole bunch of cliches.     I might as well be reading Chinese.   

When one says to start at the bottom or I must have a career goal.   You might as well be speaking Chinese to me.   Let's say I set this career goal.  I would need to know what the specific allowable moves to make and what specific moves are prohibited.  I literally don't know or understand the steps to get there.  I am missing specifics.   

It's the same thing with medical insurance.  It's like reading Chinese.   

Let me put it to you this way.  When I got my first debit card I had no clue as to what people meant when they asked me "cash back."  Did it mean that they would simply give me cash of theres or would it be out of my own account?   The only way I was able to find out and fill in the gap was to test it out by buying a small item and getting 0.50 back.  Lo and behold it was out of my account?   

For you, this type of stuff is common sense and obvious.   For me, it is not and it is extremely complex because certain details and specifics are left out.   W/O those specifics the other person speaks in an incomplete way and seems like they're on shrooms.   It's like parts of the music on a DVD is missing and the DVD is skipping alot. 

Your simple is my complex and Your complex is my simple.

Your red is my green and your green is my red.   

I am able to understand your words because your words are more complete, specific and concrete. 

I was told to think outside of the box by Solar.   

Problem with that.   I have no clue what the box is that I am working in and who's box I am working in.   Before one can think outside of the box one would have to know what the box was.  I have no clue as to what our box is. 

Quote from: cubedemon on December 05, 2015, 03:39:00 PM
I was told to think outside of the box by Solar.   

Problem with that.   I have no clue what the box is that I am working in and who's box I am working in.   Before one can think outside of the box one would have to know what the box was.  I have no clue as to what our box is.

You answered your own question in the debit, cash back comment.
Trial and error is your teacher, and obviously the only way you're going to learn and make these cognitive connections, is get the Hell out there and take some freakin risks on your own.
Will you fail? Undoubtedly. But so what, that's life and that's how we all learn, by trying.

You've spent months asking questions, only to wind up with 10 times as many questions, which will only result in a factor x 100 and still no answers.
Get of your ass and apply what you do know, because when you fail, you'll have the answers to avoid failing the next time.
Until you try, you'll never have a complete picture.

For you? Thinking outside the box is simply doing. Not reading about it, not asking a gazillion questions, but actually walking out the door and safety of your apartment and applying what little you know.
Thing is, you have all the information, it's just not connected to anything, but actually getting your hands dirty will force you to connect every dot.

Quote from: Solar on December 05, 2015, 05:06:14 PM
You answered your own question in the debit, cash back comment.
Trial and error is your teacher, and obviously the only way you're going to learn and make these cognitive connections, is get the Hell out there and take some freakin risks on your own.
Will you fail? Undoubtedly. But so what, that's life and that's how we all learn, by trying.

You've spent months asking questions, only to wind up with 10 times as many questions, which will only result in a factor x 100 and still no answers.
Get of your ass and apply what you do know, because when you fail, you'll have the answers to avoid failing the next time.
Until you try, you'll never have a complete picture.

For you? Thinking outside the box is simply doing. Not reading about it, not asking a gazillion questions, but actually walking out the door and safety of your apartment and applying what little you know.
Thing is, you have all the information, it's just not connected to anything, but actually getting your hands dirty will force you to connect every dot.

Sounds more like he is afraid of making a mistake and looking like a fool.   Making a fool of yourself is one way of learning real fast.   I have done that more then once in my life.   And I am sure I am not done yet.  :lol: :lol:

Quote from: walkstall on December 05, 2015, 05:45:16 PM

Sounds more like he is afraid of making a mistake and looking like a fool.   Making a fool of yourself is one way of learning real fast.   I have done that more then once in my life.   And I am sure I am not done yet.  :lol: :lol:

You bet! Same here, it's how I became successful in the end.
Now I pay others to play the fool. :biggrin:

Quote from: cubedemon on December 05, 2015, 03:39:00 PM
I was told to think outside of the box by Solar.   

Problem with that.   I have no clue what the box is that I am working in and who's box I am working in.   Before one can think outside of the box one would have to know what the box was.  I have no clue as to what our box is.

The box in most cases is defined by the individual. You are defining your own box. You're thinking is strictly literal and linear. Unfortunately, reality is very seldom linear, especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships and communication. Nor are interpersonal relationships (and this include professional relationships) are not going to literal. And, no, reality is not going to change itself for your perceived needs. As such, going into the issue of being a functional, independent, producing citizen of your community/society, you need to change the attitude "I need a job with these particular linear, literal traits" to "I need to find a way to adjust my linear thinking so that it can meet the needs of my potential employers."

So, for you, cubedemon, "thinking outside the box" would mean jumping the tracks of your linear thinking. "There is more than one way to skin a rabbit."  Cliche'?  Possibly. But still a principle you can apply to how you approach problems and/or goals. Some types of employment are more linear than others, but none are as linear as you would desire. That is reality, and it is not going to change.  But you CAN change yourself in that you can find ways to adjust your linear thinking to accommodate a non-linear world.

You ALMOST got it in an earlier response. For every goal and/or problem, there is a variable chance of success. The more times a person attempts to accomplish said endeavor, the greater their chances of succeeding. BUT, for the chances of success to increase, the individual needs to adjust how they go about achieving the goal and/or solving the problem. If solution A does not work, come up with solution B, since repeating solution A will most often give the same results. (Another old cliche': the definition of insanity is when a person tries the same method repeatedly, expecting different results. Cliche', but very true.)

This is where you need to get out of your linear thinking. If an attempt fails, analyze why, and change the method to prevent the why from reoccurring.  But above all TRY, as you did with charging the battery. If you attempt to pre-analyze everything and put it into some kind of strictly defined linear flow chart, you will always be in the planning stage and never get to the part where you actually try. Trying is the only way you are going to find out if your idea on how to approach a task will succeed or not. And if it does not succeed, make a change in your method, and try again. And again, and again, and again.

Experience it the best teacher. Yet another cliche', but also another truth. And no one can gain experience without trying.

Quote from: zewazir on December 06, 2015, 10:46:00 AM
The box in most cases is defined by the individual. You are defining your own box. You're thinking is strictly literal and linear. Unfortunately, reality is very seldom linear, especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships and communication. Nor are interpersonal relationships (and this include professional relationships) are not going to literal. And, no, reality is not going to change itself for your perceived needs. As such, going into the issue of being a functional, independent, producing citizen of your community/society, you need to change the attitude "I need a job with these particular linear, literal traits" to "I need to find a way to adjust my linear thinking so that it can meet the needs of my potential employers."

So, for you, cubedemon, "thinking outside the box" would mean jumping the tracks of your linear thinking. "There is more than one way to skin a rabbit."  Cliche'?  Possibly. But still a principle you can apply to how you approach problems and/or goals. Some types of employment are more linear than others, but none are as linear as you would desire. That is reality, and it is not going to change.  But you CAN change yourself in that you can find ways to adjust your linear thinking to accommodate a non-linear world.

You ALMOST got it in an earlier response. For every goal and/or problem, there is a variable chance of success. The more times a person attempts to accomplish said endeavor, the greater their chances of succeeding. BUT, for the chances of success to increase, the individual needs to adjust how they go about achieving the goal and/or solving the problem. If solution A does not work, come up with solution B, since repeating solution A will most often give the same results. (Another old cliche': the definition of insanity is when a person tries the same method repeatedly, expecting different results. Cliche', but very true.)

This is where you need to get out of your linear thinking. If an attempt fails, analyze why, and change the method to prevent the why from reoccurring.  But above all TRY, as you did with charging the battery. If you attempt to pre-analyze everything and put it into some kind of strictly defined linear flow chart, you will always be in the planning stage and never get to the part where you actually try. Trying is the only way you are going to find out if your idea on how to approach a task will succeed or not. And if it does not succeed, make a change in your method, and try again. And again, and again, and again.

Experience it the best teacher. Yet another cliche', but also another truth. And no one can gain experience without trying.

I do love the cliches you mentioned.   

When we mean linear thinking are you talking about this?   http://chuckslamp.com/index.php/2009/04/11/non-linearthinking/

Looking at other websites you're right I am thinking in a strictly literal and linear fashion.  I thought most people thought in a linear fashion. 

My thinking is that a = b, b=c, therefore a=c.  This is my natural thinking pattern.  This is what I did with Solar and others on here.   My natural thinking style causes me to find faults with certain aspects of liberal logic like tolerance.   They believe in tolerance of all view points and people no matter who or what they are.   By that logic, they should include those who are the most intolerant people on the earth and who don't share tolerance at all.   To accept tolerance, by their logic one must accept intolerance.   Yet, they don't. Why?   Some of their beliefs are inconsistent as well.   

What you're saying is I need to think outside of being linear and literalism.   Is this correct?   If this is correct, than do you have any tips or ideas on what I can do to do this?   

One thing I have discovered by observation and analysis is that most people use a form of verbal short hand.  It's a way of shortening communication to make communication more efficient so there is more time to get things done.  Most people do this automatically by reflex.  Because of my literalism I have problems spotting this.   

Example:  I'm told to be myself.  Be yourself doesn't mean literally what it says.   

It means to be my best self.

The best self is define by the social situation at hand which means there are many best selves.  If I'm in an interview, there is a certain best self I'm supposed to present.  If I am with my grandmother, it is different.  If I am with my friends, the best self is different there as well.  With a child, the best self is defined differently again.  Most people switch between these best selves automatically like second nature. 

I wish there was a way you and I could hang out somewhere and talk about stuff like this face to face.  I would eat somewhere like IHOP, Golden Coral or something.

The most confusing thing of all to me is to claim we have all of this freedom yet we have to conform to all of these social standards with no exceptions, no quarter given and an absolute manner. 

I will say that I'm glad I don't live in North Korea where they will kill you for saying doing wrong shit.  Here, you'll be ostrasized and rejected if the shit isn't against the law.   If I don't make eye contact properly with an employer, more than likely I will not be hired (ostrasization). 

It seems to me that the difference between a country that has freedom and one that doesn't is the consequence.   North Korea and Isis- they kill you.  Here, people individually ostracize you as a part of a culture if one violates certain social norms.  Another thing, one doesn't get a say or vote in what these norms are. 

Freedom and not freedom is a choice between Kang and Kodos.   

I'll choose freedom and Kang any day over not freedom and Kodos. 

I hope other planets are discovered, space travel is common place therefore providing people with a lot more opportunities to do different things.  Now that would be awesome. 

Quote from: cubedemon on December 06, 2015, 01:19:50 PM
The most confusing thing of all to me is to claim we have all of this freedom yet we have to conform to all of these social standards with no exceptions, no quarter given and an absolute manner. 

I will say that I'm glad I don't live in North Korea where they will kill you for saying doing wrong shit.  Here, you'll be ostrasized and rejected if the shit isn't against the law.   If I don't make eye contact properly with an employer, more than likely I will not be hired (ostrasization). 

It seems to me that the difference between a country that has freedom and one that doesn't is the consequence.   North Korea and Isis- they kill you.  Here, people individually ostracize you as a part of a culture if one violates certain social norms.  Another thing, one doesn't get a say or vote in what these norms are. 

Freedom and not freedom is a choice between Kang and Kodos.   

I'll choose freedom and Kang any day over not freedom and Kodos. 

I hope other planets are discovered, space travel is common place therefore providing people with a lot more opportunities to do different things.  Now that would be awesome.

cubedemon, some of the things that perplex you are merely social norms..... or etiquette.

You mention not looking someone in the eye will likely lead to not getting hired.  That is absolutely true.  Employers want to be able to see into your eyes when you speak because your eyes are a window on your soul.  Many people feel that they can gage the character of an individual just by gazing into his/her eyes when they speak.  Your eyes can betray you when you are less than truthful about something.

Also, failure to make direct eye contact with someone implies a lack of confidence and strength.  Employers want to hire go-getters.... not wimps.  The eyes are extremely important in judging someone's strengths.

I taught my children at a very young age that when they meet someone they should make direct eye contact, smile and offer a firm handshake.  That is just cultural norms.  It is good etiquette.

You probably also have a difficult time "reading" someone's body language.  These things are not black and white issues but they are still very important.  Paying attention to someone's reaction can tell you if you need to speak or shut up.  Facial expressions, shoulder shrugs and distracted eyes can tell you HOW you need to proceed if you are striving to win someone's acceptance.

Try to be sensitive to people's spirit.  It will go a long way to win friends and influence people.

Quote from: kroz on December 06, 2015, 02:47:29 PM
cubedemon, some of the things that perplex you are merely social norms..... or etiquette.

You mention not looking someone in the eye will likely lead to not getting hired.  That is absolutely true.  Employers want to be able to see into your eyes when you speak because your eyes are a window on your soul.  Many people feel that they can gage the character of an individual just by gazing into his/her eyes when they speak.  Your eyes can betray you when you are less than truthful about something.

Also, failure to make direct eye contact with someone implies a lack of confidence and strength.  Employers want to hire go-getters.... not wimps.  The eyes are extremely important in judging someone's strengths.

I taught my children at a very young age that when they meet someone they should make direct eye contact, smile and offer a firm handshake.  That is just cultural norms.  It is good etiquette.

You probably also have a difficult time "reading" someone's body language.  These things are not black and white issues but they are still very important.  Paying attention to someone's reaction can tell you if you need to speak or shut up.  Facial expressions, shoulder shrugs and distracted eyes can tell you HOW you need to proceed if you are striving to win someone's acceptance.

Try to be sensitive to people's spirit.  It will go a long way to win friends and influence people.

I have no clue what you mean when you say try to be sensitive to people's spirit.

All of that's fine.  Here is what confuses me.  We're told we're an individualistic nation and meaning we follow the philosophy of individualism.  Yet, we're supposed to conform to all of these same social standards.   That's fine.   I'm cool with that.   We do need to have some social standards.   To call ourselves individualistic is a lie.   We're not an individualistic nation whatsoever.  We are a conformist culture but yet we claim to be an individualistic culture.   Not true.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.   https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/jumps-up-and-down-and-yells-look-at-me-look-at-me/

So, we supposed to do as the Romans do or are we supposed to stand out from the crowd?   What I see is a whole bunch of double-think and mixed signals. 

Here are other things I see. The presentation of America is that all one has to do is to work hard.  It is made to seem like this is the only prerequisite requirement for one to get and keep a job when it most certainly is not.  One has to have a certain personality and one has to have the correct social skills. 

Again, I just see a whole bunch of mixed signals and double think.   

Quote from: cubedemon on December 07, 2015, 05:11:01 AM
Here are other things I see. The presentation of America is that all one has to do is to work hard.  It is made to seem like this is the only prerequisite requirement for one to get and keep a job when it most certainly is not.  One has to have a certain personality and one has to have the correct social skills. 

Again, I just see a whole bunch of mixed signals and double think.   

And one must have a clear and fully capable brain!

My Dad had an 11th grade education but studied at our kitchen table and started his own business from scratch with virtually no money.  His business grew and expanded to two cities and he was very successful.

That is really only possible in America.  Yes there were far less regulations back then, but he worked his tail off for many years.  He retired at age 55 and spent the rest of his life traveling and fishing.

When I said earlier that you should be "sensitive to people's spirit" I meant that you should read their mood and respond accordingly.

A successful life is not a straight path.  It is full of crooks and turns that must be negotiated by a diplomatic understanding of and response to people.  We are not robots.  We have good days and bad days.  Learn to discern people's moods and respond appropriately to them.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 07, 2015, 05:11:01 AM
Here are other things I see. The presentation of America is that all one has to do is to work hard.  It is made to seem like this is the only prerequisite requirement for one to get and keep a job when it most certainly is not.  One has to have a certain personality and one has to have the correct social skills. 

Again, I just see a whole bunch of mixed signals and double think.   

There is a job for everyone, regardless. The problem I see is you have your sights set way, wayyyy to high!
Why not start with the lowliest of employment, get a feel for actual work and drop the idea of full lifetime employment from day one. Its not going to happen!
No one starts at the top, ever, that's not how life works, everyone takes entry level positions, and you can do the same.
Landscaping may just be a perfect fit for you, seriously.
It's active, fulfilling good old fashioned work and when you learn every aspect of the job, you can venture out on your own, or even start your own company and hire people to do the work for you.

But forget the BS about gainful employment in the field of "your choosing" and face reality.
Take what you can get!

Quote from: kroz on December 06, 2015, 02:47:29 PM
cubedemon, some of the things that perplex you are merely social norms..... or etiquette.

You mention not looking someone in the eye will likely lead to not getting hired.  That is absolutely true.  Employers want to be able to see into your eyes when you speak because your eyes are a window on your soul.  Many people feel that they can gage the character of an individual just by gazing into his/her eyes when they speak.  Your eyes can betray you when you are less than truthful about something.

Also, failure to make direct eye contact with someone implies a lack of confidence and strength.  Employers want to hire go-getters.... not wimps.  The eyes are extremely important in judging someone's strengths.

I taught my children at a very young age that when they meet someone they should make direct eye contact, smile and offer a firm handshake.  That is just cultural norms.  It is good etiquette.

If eye contact is so natural, is an accurate indicator of whether someone is truthful or not than why do we have to be taught to make eye contact?   Is it something that is innate to humans as a species by genetics or is it just a social convention?   

Do we not have the idea in our society of "innocent until proven guilty?"   

Here is my issue with the idea of confidence.   

In essence, there are only a few things I can know with absolute certainty and one of them is death.  I am confident in my knowledge that I will die sometime in the future.   Other things I can be reasonably certain of.   This means more than likely the plausibility is high I can do x and/or know x.   To claim that I absolutely know it or can do it which means I know or can do it 100% absolutely and can't be wrong would make me into a liar.   Confidence demands absoluteness.  Obama, Reagan, and other presidents and politicians deal in absoluteness therefore they make promises that has the possibility of not being able to be kept.  Obama promised he would bring hope and change.   How can he keep such a promise?   People in government have different beliefs and ideas of how America should go.  He is but one man and another thing all he is authorized to do in the constitution is to execute the laws congress passes.   He doesn't make laws and neither does Reagan.  They can make suggestions to congress but otherwise how can a president truthfully keep their promise?

Quote from: kroz on December 07, 2015, 05:23:12 AM
And one must have a clear and fully capable brain!

1.  By who's definition?   

2.   What if one does not have a clear and fully capable brain?   

Quote from: kroz on December 07, 2015, 05:23:12 AM
My Dad had an 11th grade education but studied at our kitchen table and started his own business from scratch with virtually no money.  His business grew and expanded to two cities and he was very successful.

What did he study?

Quote from: kroz on December 07, 2015, 05:23:12 AM

That is really only possible in America.  Yes there were far less regulations back then, but he worked his tail off for many years.  He retired at age 55 and spent the rest of his life traveling and fishing.

How do you know this?   Why isn't it possible in Great Britain, Canada, and other places as well? 

Quote from: kroz on December 07, 2015, 05:23:12 AM
When I said earlier that you should be "sensitive to people's spirit" I meant that you should read their mood and respond accordingly.

How do you do this?

Quote from: kroz on December 07, 2015, 05:23:12 AM
A successful life is not a straight path.  It is full of crooks and turns that must be negotiated by a diplomatic understanding of and response to people.  We are not robots.  We have good days and bad days.  Learn to discern people's moods and respond appropriately to them.

How do I go about doing these things?   

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 05:27:28 AM
There is a job for everyone, regardless. The problem I see is you have your sights set way, wayyyy to high!

How do you figure this?   If I lack confidence, faith in myself, and I am negative logically why would I have my sights set high?    I don't have the "can do" attitude per the colloquial American definition.  Without assistance and instruction by others, I don't see how I can be gainfully employed.  I'm told I lack confidence by others all of the time and I need to believe in myself more even by others on here.  It would be illogical for my sights to be set high or really anywhere.   For one to have one's sights way to high or anywhere at all their confidence would have to be high.   Which is true because both can't be true at the same time?  This is another example of what I'm talking about.  Contradictions in the over-arching American belief system.   Your conclusions about me make absolutely 100% no sense. 


Let's say what you say is true.  That doesn't mean everyone is capable of going through the whole process including the social aspect of getting it on their own without assistance.   

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 05:27:28 AM
Why not start with the lowliest of employment, get a feel for actual work and drop the idea of full lifetime employment from day one. Its not going to happen!

Forget whether I can do a particular job or not.   Obtaining a job requires social ability and social understanding to do so.   
Let's talk about your friend John.  Let's say that was me instead of you.  For me, it would've been difficult to understand the conversation that took place.  How would you expect me who is very literal, concrete and linear in thought to be able to grasp what this man was saying?   The communication was very choppy and stuff was left.   

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 05:27:28 AM
No one starts at the top, ever, that's not how life works, everyone takes entry level positions, and you can do the same.
Landscaping may just be a perfect fit for you, seriously.

How do you figure that I expect to start at the top?  I never expected to become a CEO anyway or any kind of political leader.  I have no expectations that I can even reach the top.   Start at the top?   Seriously?  Why would I expect to start at the top or reach the top when I have low confidence in myself and my abilities?   Do I have confidence that I should be at the top, reach the top and deserve the top or is my confidence low in which I don't believe I could ever obtain any employement whatsoever without any assistance to do so?   Which is it?   For me to believe that I have my expectations way to high implies that I am confident that I can be at the top, handle the responsibilities that come with being at the top and that I can ever reach the top.  If my confidence and my belief in myself is extremely low than how is it logically possible to have my expectations way to high?   

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 05:27:28 AM
It's active, fulfilling good old fashioned work and when you learn every aspect of the job, you can venture out on your own, or even start your own company and hire people to do the work for you.


But forget the BS about gainful employment in the field of "your choosing" and face reality.
Take what you can get!

I have forgotten about being in the field of my choosing.   I am flexible to whatever job I am capable of obtaining, doing, keeping and maintaining for myself.   

By the way, I've done some manual labor jobs.   Here is an ancedotal example of an outcome with that.  It didn't work out for me so well.  I believe I posted it on here before.  https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/

In addition, I was given efficency and productivity tests by Worktec, an organzation.   They wrote up an extensive report upon me.   This is a partial quote.

QuoteIn respect to piece-rated production based jobs, Mr. cubedemon's overall production rate was 27% out of a possible 100%.  His percentage was an indicator as to how he may perform competitively during similar work in the community.  Factors that likely had a negative impact on his ability to work at a higher rate were:

* Perfectionism
* Fine finger dexterity skills
* Ability to quickly comprehend and execute job tasks
* Need to organize station before initiating work

Now, these are what they say are my reported assets and limitations.

Quote
Assets

* BS degree in Information Technology
* Reported desire to return to employment
* family support
* driver's license and reliable transportation
* dependability
* detail oriented
* works best in small environments with minimal distractions
* productive on tasks where there are clear instructions and expectations

limitations

* social and communication skills
* organizational skills
* becomes anxious, easily frustrated or obsessed on tasks that are challenging
* understanding of social cues
* concerns with interviewing skills
* fear of using the phone
* working in large environments with a lot of distraction

So, how do I overcome my limitations and low productivity?  What specific methods and techniques do I use?   Let's say I go out into the country.  They're going to speak in a different dialect than the dialect I'm used to here.  I have problems with how people speak here in understanding what they say as well.   For manual jobs like landscaping, cleaning out gutters, raking, etc, etc what do you think is going to happen based upon my assets, limitations and my productivity rating?  More than likely I will work hard but I will not be productive enough.  I will be to slow.   Because of my communication issues, my issues with body language, my issues understanding and comprehending things due to how my brain works how would I be successful with people in the country in addition to my low productivity rating? 

This isn't negativity or if it is it is negative set of conclusion(s) based upon facts about myself and how real life does work. 

I wrote this little poem a while back. 

QuoteYou say "I can." I ask "how?"

You say "Be positive" I ask "how?"

You say "Get a Job." I ask "how?"

You say "Be true to oneself." I ask "how?"

You say "Fit in" I ask "how?"

You say "Start at the Bottom." I ask "how?"

You say "You have to earn every you get." I ask "how?

You say "Be more responsible." I ask "how?"

You say "Live life to the fullest." I ask "how?"

So, how do I literally do these things exactly?

Can we not focus on my emotional state but the logic of what I say please?   

Quote from: kroz on December 07, 2015, 05:23:12 AM
A successful life is not a straight path.  It is full of crooks and turns that must be negotiated by a diplomatic understanding of and response to people.  We are not robots.  We have good days and bad days.  Learn to discern people's moods and respond appropriately to them.

More questions to this.

I buy that this is true and let's assume that it is.   What are the constraints to the choices one can make?   Does choice have limits to them?   If we really have all of these possibilities and choices than why are we limited in control when it comes to the outcome?   What is the extent of control of our fate exactly?   By this logic, our control of our lives is constrained.   

Quote from: cubedemon on December 07, 2015, 06:40:12 AM
How do you figure this?   If I lack confidence, faith in myself, and I am negative logically why would I have my sights set high?    I don't have the "can do" attitude per the colloquial American definition.  Without assistance and instruction by others, I don't see how I can be gainfully employed.  I'm told I lack confidence by others all of the time and I need to believe in myself more even by others on here.  It would be illogical for my sights to be set high or really anywhere.   For one to have one's sights way to high or anywhere at all their confidence would have to be high.   Which is true because both can't be true at the same time?  This is another example of what I'm talking about.  Contradictions in the over-arching American belief system.   Your conclusions about me make absolutely 100% no sense. 

Then lets define "Gainful Employment". To most, it means full time work, independence and self sufficient.
Obviously this is unachievable based on your earlier posts because you are your only roadblock.
So forget it, you must start at the bottom, very bottom!

QuoteLet's say what you say is true.  That doesn't mean everyone is capable of going through the whole process including the social aspect of getting it on their own without assistance.   

Forget whether I can do a particular job or not.   Obtaining a job requires social ability and social understanding to do so.   
Let's talk about your friend John.  Let's say that was me instead of you.  For me, it would've been difficult to understand the conversation that took place.  How would you expect me who is very literal, concrete and linear in thought to be able to grasp what this man was saying?   The communication was very choppy and stuff was left.   

Pure Bull! I've worked jobs where half the crew was so drunk they literally passed out on the lawn.
Yes, these people were on govt hiring programs, and yes, the employer knew what he was getting, and still he hired them because 90% of their wage was paid by the taxpayer.

QuoteHow do you figure that I expect to start at the top?  I never expected to become a CEO anyway or any kind of political leader.  I have no expectations that I can even reach the top.   Start at the top?   Seriously?  Why would I expect to start at the top or reach the top when I have low confidence in myself and my abilities?   Do I have confidence that I should be at the top, reach the top and deserve the top or is my confidence low in which I don't believe I could ever obtain any employement whatsoever without any assistance to do so?   Which is it?   For me to believe that I have my expectations way to high implies that I am confident that I can be at the top, handle the responsibilities that come with being at the top and that I can ever reach the top.  If my confidence and my belief in myself is extremely low than how is it logically possible to have my expectations way to high?

All based on previous replies where you wanted to be a programmer.
You don't jump right in that position without having proven skills, and even then, no employer is going to hire a newb straight out of school and put them in a position of complete trust, no, they will start out as a data checker.
So yeah, I gleaned from your posts that you wanted to hit full employment without passing go.

QuoteI have forgotten about being in the field of my choosing.   I am flexible to whatever job I am capable of obtaining, doing, keeping and maintaining for myself.   

By the way, I've done some manual labor jobs.   Here is an ancedotal example of an outcome with that.  It didn't work out for me so well.  I believe I posted it on here before.  https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/

In addition, I was given efficency and productivity tests by Worktec, an organzation.   They wrote up an extensive report upon me.   This is a partial quote.

Now, these are what they say are my reported assets and limitations.

I still don't see an issue. If you came to my business and were able to explain your handicaps, and I had a position where I needed a helper for one of my employees, you would probably be a match for the job.
Not every employer wants an employee working alone or thinking independently, some prefer a gopher, someone that will take literal orders and do as they're told. EG.
"Hand me that rake, get me that trowel, bring me another load of bricks, mix more cement, etc.

Some professions like say a brick layer doesn't want someone interfering in their work, they just want someone keeping the materials coming.
When the bricks they're using, gets low,  you refill it, if they are running out of cement, you mix it without being told because you saw ihe was running out.
If you catch up, you look around for obstructions to his job, like boards with nails sticking out, you remove them, because your job is to make his easier to complete.

QuoteSo, how do I overcome my limitations and low productivity?  What specific methods and techniques do I use?   Let's say I go out into the country.  They're going to speak in a different dialect than the dialect I'm used to here.  I have problems with how people speak here in understanding what they say as well.   For manual jobs like landscaping, cleaning out gutters, raking, etc, etc what do you think is going to happen based upon my assets, limitations and my productivity rating?  More than likely I will work hard but I will not be productive enough.  I will be to slow.   Because of my communication issues, my issues with body language, my issues understanding and comprehending things due to how my brain works how would I be successful with people in the country in addition to my low productivity rating? 

This is the written word, where you can't see their face, so we have to be exact when communicating, but in person, you would see a comment followed by a facial expression, whether it's a smile or a simple wink, you have to learn everyone communicates a little differently than the next guy, and believe me, once you do, the less they need to speak, simply point and nod their head, and you'll know what they're saying.

Stop over thinking things so much, let the natural flow kick in.

QuoteThis isn't negativity or if it is it is negative set of conclusion(s) based upon facts about myself and how real life does work. 

I wrote this little poem a while back. 

So, how do I literally do these things exactly?

Can we not focus on my emotional state but the logic of what I say please?

Answer: Lose the fear of rejection and persevere.
So what if you get canned. I have been fired more than I was hired, not always my fault, sometimes I was setup, other times I didn't brown nose enough and when the season was over, I was let go.
Once I had a fellow employee steal $100.0 from my cash drawer, then claimed I didn't take the money from the customer, and since I couldn't prove it I was fired, only later to find out she was busted for embezzlement.

Shit happens,, so what, that's life and you move on, because your only option left is to give up.
Are you a quitter? Because it certainly sounds like it, you want everything to be perfect before you attempt another try, and that is not how life works.
Get a broom, and offer to sweep storefronts for cash, its a start.

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
Then lets define "Gainful Employment". To most, it means full time work, independence and self sufficient.
Obviously this is unachievable based on your earlier posts because you are your only roadblock.
So forget it, you must start at the bottom, very bottom!
Pure Bull! I've worked jobs where half the crew was so drunk they literally passed out on the lawn.
Yes, these people were on govt hiring programs, and yes, the employer knew what he was getting, and still he hired them because 90% of their wage was paid by the taxpayer.

That's what I'm trying to do with community support services.   Of course, I won't get drunk.  I don't drink anyway.   
 

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
All based on previous replies where you wanted to be a programmer.

I guess this must be a neurotypical or average person thing.   It's how walkstall reacted when I said I desired Fallout for Christmas.     

When I say I desire to do x or be x.  I mean just that nothing more and nothing less.  It doesn't mean I will get it or that  I feel that I deserve it.   Desire simply just means desire, nothing more. 

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
You don't jump right in that position without having proven skills, and even then, no employer is going to hire a newb straight out of school and put them in a position of complete trust, no, they will start out as a data checker.

Data Checker.   I didn't know this.

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
So yeah, I gleaned from your posts that you wanted to hit full employment without passing go.

Metaphorically, since we're talking about Monopoly and using it as an analogy in your expression, my response is I have no idea where Go is at. 

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
I still don't see an issue. If you came to my business and were able to explain your handicaps, and I had a position where I needed a helper for one of my employees, you would probably be a match for the job.

Awesome  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
Not every employer wants an employee working alone or thinking independently, some prefer a gopher, someone that will take literal orders and do as they're told. EG.
"Hand me that rake, get me that trowel, bring me another load of bricks, mix more cement, etc.

Sounds Good to me.   Just tell me what you want and you got it.   As long as I know where the stuff is at and I know how to do what I'm supposed to do.  We would be good to go.    :thumbsup:  Shoot,I could gopher.  It's concrete, specific and no need to interpret what other people are saying.   Being a gopher seems like it would be easy peasy. 

At my own place of dwelling, I can think independently on my own time and write my own stuff out.   Create stories or my own games. 

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
Some professions like say a brick layer doesn't want someone interfering in their work, they just want someone keeping the materials coming.

When the bricks they're using, gets low,  you refill it, if they are running out of cement, you mix it without being told because you saw ihe was running out.

Yeah, I could do this.   It probably would build up my muscles too  :biggrin:  Again, seems easy!

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
If you catch up, you look around for obstructions to his job, like boards with nails sticking out, you remove them, because your job is to make his easier to complete.

Cause he may need to use the boards.   Division of Labor, right?

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
This is the written word, where you can't see their face, so we have to be exact when communicating, but in person, you would see a comment followed by a facial expression, whether it's a smile or a simple wink, you have to learn everyone communicates a little differently than the next guy, and believe me, once you do, the less they need to speak, simply point and nod their head, and you'll know what they're saying.

I do have issues with the non-verbal language.   Once I get used to a person, I can work with them.  I do have what is called mind-blindness.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-blindness

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
Stop over thinking things so much, let the natural flow kick in.

For me, my "natural flow" is diminished.  I have missing gaps to that.   So, a lot of the stuff you're able to do unconsciously I have to do in the cerebral of my brain. 

Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
So what if you get canned. I have been fired more than I was hired, not always my fault, sometimes I was setup, other times I didn't brown nose enough and when the season was over, I was let go.
Once I had a fellow employee steal $100.0 from my cash drawer, then claimed I didn't take the money from the customer, and since I couldn't prove it I was fired, only later to find out she was busted for embezzlement.

That is amazing.   When you went to your next job how did you handle it with your potential boss?

With regards to brown nosing, I would do it if it was required but I don't like it.