Atheism and Trans: a debate

[p1tchblack]

That's a given, but that's not what you claimed earlier.

Maybe there was a misunderstanding, but this is what I said on page 2:

People subjectively believe they have free will, but there's no biological/neurological evidence to support it. Our thoughts dictate most  everything we are and do, but we have no control over our thoughts - our thoughts just appear; we don't think them before we think them.

[Solar]

Maybe there was a misunderstanding, but this is what I said on page 2:

People subjectively believe they have free will, but there's no biological/neurological evidence to support it. Our thoughts dictate most  everything we are and do, but we have no control over our thoughts - our thoughts just appear; we don't think them before we think them.

The same goes for your claim.

Now tell us, who controls their thoughts, if the individual isn't the one generating them.

[p1tchblack]

The same goes for your claim.

Now tell us, who controls their thoughts, if the individual isn't the one generating them.

I don't disagree that "you" generate your thoughts just as "you" create red blood cells, divide cells, convert oxygen into carbon dioxide, metabolize energy, etc.  The idea of free will is that there is a "self" that is the source of our thoughts and actions. We are consciously in control.  Our subjective experience is that of a person standing on the river bank, witnessing our thoughts go by and then we make decisions to take action or not to take action.

That simply isn't the case.

Our thoughts arise and we have no control over them.  We don't know what we are going to think next.  There is no independent "self" in our brain the is standing outside of our thoughts.  Our "self" is simply the flow of thoughts in consciousness, over which we have no control and if we (self) don't control our thoughts, and thoughts determine our every action, then we can't possibly have free will.  The only way that free will could exist is if we were able to think our thoughts before they arrive into our consciousness, but obviously that is not possible.

[Solar]

I don't disagree that "you" generate your thoughts just as "you" create red blood cells, divide cells, convert oxygen into carbon dioxide, metabolize energy, etc.  The idea of free will is that there is a "self" that is the source of our thoughts and actions. We are consciously in control.  Our subjective experience is that of a person standing on the river bank, witnessing our thoughts go by and then we make decisions to take action or not to take action.

That simply isn't the case.

Our thoughts arise and we have no control over them.  We don't know what we are going to think next.  There is no independent "self" in our brain the is standing outside of our thoughts.  Our "self" is simply the flow of thoughts in consciousness, over which we have no control and if we (self) don't control our thoughts, and thoughts determine our every action, then we can't possibly have free will.  The only way that free will could exist is if we were able to think our thoughts before they arrive into our consciousness, but obviously that is not possible.

That's just downright stupid, why would you do that? Just like we can't predict the future.
When a scientist sits down to work out an equation, if he knew the results prior, he wouldn't need to think, now would he?

Now, enough of your nonsense, answer my question!

[p1tchblack]

That's just downright stupid, why would you do that? Just like we can't predict the future.
When a scientist sits down to work out an equation, if he knew the results prior, he wouldn't need to think, now would he?

It's not that I wouldn't do that... I couldn't do that.  I couldn't think my thoughts before I think them. I have no idea what thought is going to arise in consciousness next.  I have no idea what I'm going to forget or remember next.  I have no control over the fact that, while I'm watching a baseball game tonight, I'm suddenly going to think "Did I close the garage door?"

Now, enough of your nonsense, answer my question!

Sorry, I thought I did answer them.  Which one did I miss?

[walkstall]

It's not that I wouldn't do that... I couldn't do that.  I couldn't think my thoughts before I think them. I have no idea what thought is going to arise in consciousness next.  I have no idea what I'm going to forget or remember next.  I have no control over the fact that, while I'm watching a baseball game tonight, I'm suddenly going to think "Did I close the garage door?"

Sorry, I thought I did answer them. 

Hmm... Give it time, your way of thinking it should pop into your brain.   

[Solar]

It's not that I wouldn't do that... I couldn't do that.  I couldn't think my thoughts before I think them. I have no idea what thought is going to arise in consciousness next.  I have no idea what I'm going to forget or remember next.  I have no control over the fact that, while I'm watching a baseball game tonight, I'm suddenly going to think "Did I close the garage door?"

Sorry, I thought I did answer them.  Which one did I miss?

You claimed you are not the one generating your own thoughts, so who is?

[p1tchblack]

You claimed you are not the one generating your own thoughts, so who is?

Your body/brain is generating thoughts, just like your body/brain is metabolizing energy, dividing cells, managing liver activity, etc.  My point is that you no more control the thoughts that come into consciousness than you control the fact that your body is producing red blood cells.

For example.... If I ask you to think of a movie (and you can do this if you want), within a second or so, names of movies starting arising into consciousness, pushed there by your brain.  However, if you spent 10 minutes thinking of movies and never thought of The Wizard of Oz, were you free to pick the name of a movie that didn't come to mind?

[supsalemgr]

Your body/brain is generating thoughts, just like your body/brain is metabolizing energy, dividing cells, managing liver activity, etc.  My point is that you no more control the thoughts that come into consciousness than you control the fact that your body is producing red blood cells.

For example.... If I ask you to think of a movie (and you can do this if you want), within a second or so, names of movies starting arising into consciousness, pushed there by your brain.  However, if you spent 10 minutes thinking of movies and never thought of The Wizard of Oz, were you free to pick the name of a movie that didn't come to mind?

That is a novel thought on how not to take personal responsibility.

[Solar]

Your body/brain is generating thoughts, just like your body/brain is metabolizing energy, dividing cells, managing liver activity, etc.  My point is that you no more control the thoughts that come into consciousness than you control the fact that your body is producing red blood cells.

For example.... If I ask you to think of a movie (and you can do this if you want), within a second or so, names of movies starting arising into consciousness, pushed there by your brain.  However, if you spent 10 minutes thinking of movies and never thought of The Wizard of Oz, were you free to pick the name of a movie that didn't come to mind?

Yet you claim we have no free will. So who is controlling us?

[p1tchblack]

Yet you claim we have no free will. So who is controlling us?

It's not a claim.  The functionality of our brains makes free will impossible.  Our thoughts are the result of previous causes - every experience we've had in our lives.  Those previous causes make us who we are.  Our brain, at a neurological level, controls us by pushing thoughts into our consciousness.

The only way free will would be possible is if we had some visibility or control over the neurological functionality of our brain and were able to tweak it to control what thoughts are pushed into consciousness.

By the way, this isn't some sci-fi garbage that I made up.

Brain makes decisions before you even know it
Brain activity predicts decisions before they are consciously made.

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

The work calls into question the 'consciousness' of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how 'free' we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.

"We think our decisions are conscious, but these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg," says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, who led the study.

"The results are quite dramatic," says Frank Tong, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Ten seconds is "a lifetime" in terms of brain activity, he adds.

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

[p1tchblack]

That is a novel thought on how not to take personal responsibility.

I disagree.  It doesn't really matter how you became a serial killer.  If you are, you are and should be treated accordingly.  Acknowledging that we aren't truly in control, but are the result of previous causes/influences/experiences over which we have no control, just takes away that impulse to hate, or seek retribution against, dangerous people.

[Possum]

It's not a claim.  The functionality of our brains makes free will impossible.  Our thoughts are the result of previous causes - every experience we've had in our lives.  Those previous causes make us who we are.  Our brain, at a neurological level, controls us by pushing thoughts into our consciousness.

The only way free will would be possible is if we had some visibility or control over the neurological functionality of our brain and were able to tweak it to control what thoughts are pushed into consciousness.

By the way, this isn't some sci-fi garbage that I made up.

Brain makes decisions before you even know it
Brain activity predicts decisions before they are consciously made.

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

The work calls into question the 'consciousness' of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how 'free' we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.

"We think our decisions are conscious, but these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg," says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, who led the study.

"The results are quite dramatic," says Frank Tong, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Ten seconds is "a lifetime" in terms of brain activity, he adds.

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

You are ruling out the fact most people can learn right from wrong. People choose how they want to act.

[Solar]

It's not a claim.  The functionality of our brains makes free will impossible.  Our thoughts are the result of previous causes - every experience we've had in our lives.  Those previous causes make us who we are.  Our brain, at a neurological level, controls us by pushing thoughts into our consciousness.

Yes, we are a culmination of life's experiences. But we make conscious decisions, in spite of what our brain tells us, it's called a "Gut Intuition".
I have many times listened to my gut voice over that of my conscious decisions, it's possibly God telling me, "Don't Do It Idiot".

The only way free will would be possible is if we had some visibility or control over the neurological functionality of our brain and were able to tweak it to control what thoughts are pushed into consciousness.

By the way, this isn't some sci-fi garbage that I made up.

Brain makes decisions before you even know it
Brain activity predicts decisions before they are consciously made.

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

The work calls into question the 'consciousness' of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how 'free' we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.

"We think our decisions are conscious, but these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg," says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, who led the study.

"The results are quite dramatic," says Frank Tong, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Ten seconds is "a lifetime" in terms of brain activity, he adds.

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

A sociopath would blow this BS out of the water! Many work on impulse, so actually care for animals, yet would slit your throat for the fun of it, it's know as an undeveloped conscience.

[p1tchblack]

You are ruling out the fact most people can learn right from wrong.

Not at all.  An awareness of legalities or the influence of parents in teaching right from wrong are among the past experiences/prior causes that I'm referring to that determine the thoughts that drive our actions and decisions.

People choose how they want to act.

Your "wants" are also just the result of thoughts over which you have no control. If you decide you want a drink of water, you didn't author that thought, but you may or may not take action on it.  Your action or inaction is also the result of some thought/decision that originates at a neurological level of your brain that you don't control.