Atheism and Trans: a debate

[p1tchblack]

I have never known anyone who felt they were so perfect they could judge God, until now. 

Just asking a question.  An all-loving, caring, graceful "father" would presumably want all of his children to have the best afterlife.  I know I would.

If these 2/3 looking at spending eternity in hell can not think for themselves, why would it matter what God did differently?

Saying people can't 'think for themselves" isn't entirely true.  You do think, your thoughts are the result of all of the past experiences of your life + genetics and your thoughts determine basically everything that makes you "you".... you just don't control your thoughts and, therefore, don't control your actions.

So, since God revealed himself to only a tiny portion of the world, basically everyone in India is going to hell, by no fault of their own.  All of the kids born in India today have no control over where they are born, who are their parents, what god(s) they will be taught to believe in. We know from research that where/how you're raised has a significant impact on what you believe later on in life, especially when it comes to religion.

[Solar]

Just asking a question.  An all-loving, caring, graceful "father" would presumably want all of his children to have the best afterlife.  I know I would.

Saying people can't 'think for themselves" isn't entirely true.  You do think, your thoughts are the result of all of the past experiences of your life + genetics and your thoughts determine basically everything that makes you "you".... you just don't control your thoughts and, therefore, don't control your actions.

So, since God revealed himself to only a tiny portion of the world, basically everyone in India is going to hell, by no fault of their own.  All of the kids born in India today have no control over where they are born, who are their parents, what god(s) they will be taught to believe in. We know from research that where/how you're raised has a significant impact on what you believe later on in life, especially when it comes to religion.

You appear to be all over the map, so tell us, what is your belief since you don't believe God gave us free will, who is controlling you?

[p1tchblack]

You appear to be all over the map, so tell us, what is your belief since you don't believe God gave us free will, who is controlling you?

ha ha.. well, there are a lot of different posts that are taking the discussion in many different directions.

It's not a matter of who is controlling you.  The way the human brain is designed, there's no possible way for free will to exist.  Our thoughts determine our every action/inaction, but we simply don't control our thoughts.  Try to predict your next thought before it comes into your consciousness.  You can't do it.

Our brain, at a neurological level, creates thoughts and those thoughts eventually appear in our consciousness to determine our actions/inactions.

[Solar]

ha ha.. well, there are a lot of different posts that are taking the discussion in many different directions.

It's not a matter of who is controlling you.  The way the human brain is designed, there's no possible way for free will to exist.  Our thoughts determine our every action/inaction, but we simply don't control our thoughts.  Try to predict your next thought before it comes into your consciousness.  You can't do it.

Our brain, at a neurological level, creates thoughts and those thoughts eventually appear in our consciousness to determine our actions/inactions.

You're wrong. I can choose to think as I please, it really is that simple. If I want to be angered I can think of any number of leftist policies, if I want to be happy, I simply call my dog.

As I pointed out how my schizophrenic friend said the voices in his head weren't talking to him because they were mad at at him.
Do you think for a moment he has control over what his mind is dong, who is controlling him?

Point is, we all choose our path in life, you may not, but most normal people do.
You still avoided the question of, what do you believe, what is controlling your thoughts?

[Possum]

Just asking a question.  An all-loving, caring, graceful "father" would presumably want all of his children to have the best afterlife.  I know I would.

Not quite, you set standards that you hope your children live by, teach them what you feel they should know. that in itself does not guarantee the best of anything.

Saying people can't 'think for themselves" isn't entirely true.  You do think, your thoughts are the result of all of the past experiences of your life + genetics and your thoughts determine basically everything that makes you "you".... you just don't control your thoughts and, therefore, don't control your actions.

If it was true you can not control your actions, why have laws? Why teach right vs. wrong? How can you hold anyone responsible?

So, since God revealed himself to only a tiny portion of the world, basically everyone in India is going to hell, by no fault of their own.  All of the kids born in India today have no control over where they are born, who are their parents, what god(s) they will be taught to believe in. We know from research that where/how you're raised has a significant impact on what you believe later on in life, especially when it comes to religion.

It is very obvious you know very little about the bible, there are places where you can learn, but I really don't think you care to.

[Shantanu]

I was watching Jordan Peterson nuke some atheist and I started to think about the atheist argument against God. 

No proof that God exists.  We would say, yes there is plenty of proof besides Polaroids, but in the end it requires faith.

There is no proof that transsexuals exist in the natural state.  The just say that it exists and we're to take there word for it so they can begin mutilating their body. 

Using atheist dogma, transsexualism does not exist since there is no proof but feelings.  (this was argued better in my head)

While it is true that the question of the existence of God is one of faith in the existence, with a a structured hypotheisis one can go about ascertaining the probability that a God who is able to communicate and also willing to communicate with humans does exist in my view.

So the idea is to develop ones own theology based on one's convictions and put it to the test; see if things can be proven and work out for the best for one in terms of the mission that one undertakes in life.

If the mission is noble, and there is a God who supports the quest of the mission He will ensure that the mission is accomplished as truth.

[RV]

While it is true that the question of the existence of God is one of faith in the existence, with a a structured hypothesis one can go about ascertaining the probability that a God who is able to communicate and also willing to communicate with humans does exist in my view.

To ignore scripture as well as mountains of archeological evidence to make the claim that the existence of God is one of "faith" is absurd at best. The leftists do this to try to sway as many gullible as they can that one can believe anything.

So the idea is to develop ones own theology based on one's convictions and put it to the test; see if things can be proven and work out for the best for one in terms of the mission that one undertakes in life.

One can "develop one's own theology" in the same way that one can believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Unicorns, Fairy's and fairy-dust. Once again, the left wants to push the idea that one can believe anything and it's just as valid and just as provable as anything else. To ignore scripture as well as mountains of archeological evidence to make the claim that the existence of God is one of "faith" is absurd at best. The leftists do this to try to sway as many gullible as they can that one can believe anything.

I cannot "see" air so I guess using the leftist ideology, air doesn't exist. That would of course assume that I know everything, (I don't and have never claimed to). I do rely on the Bible and on my experience with God rather than the absurd "logic" that the left attempts to force on the gullible.

If the mission is noble, and there is a God who supports the quest of the mission He will ensure that the mission is accomplished as truth.

"If the mission is noble"? Which human being knows enough to determine that the "mission is noble"? As scripture readily tells us, God's ways are not our ways. We didn't create something from nothing. I didn't send my Son to die on a cross for humankind. I cannot even "save" myself.

[p1tchblack]

You're wrong. I can choose to think as I please, it really is that simple. If I want to be angered I can think of any number of leftist policies, if I want to be happy, I simply call my dog.

We believe that we choose to think. We have the feeling that we are independent of our stream of thought, but we aren't.  We have no idea what our next thought is going to be. If you decide to think of things to make yourself mad, you didn't create that thought.

As I pointed out how my schizophrenic friend said the voices in his head weren't talking to him because they were mad at at him. Do you think for a moment he has control over what his mind is dong, who is controlling him

He has no more or less control than we have.  We don't know what our next thought is going to be until we know it, and we don't consciously create it.  To do that, we'd have to think our thoughts before we think them.

Point is, we all choose our path in life, you may not, but most normal people do.  You still avoided the question of, what do you believe, what is controlling your thoughts?

Our thoughts are controlled/created by our brain and based on the entirety of all previous causes.

[walkstall]

p1tchblack, use the quote function.  That way your post is outside of his post.

[p1tchblack]

p1tchblack, use the quote function.  That way your post is outside of his post.

[walkstall]

Thanks

[Solar]

Our thoughts are controlled/created by our brain and based on the entirety of all previous causes.

That's a given, but that's not what you claimed earlier.

[Shantanu]

To ignore scripture as well as mountains of archeological evidence to make the claim that the existence of God is one of "faith" is absurd at best. The leftists do this to try to sway as many gullible as they can that one can believe anything.

One can "develop one's own theology" in the same way that one can believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Unicorns, Fairy's and fairy-dust. Once again, the left wants to push the idea that one can believe anything and it's just as valid and just as provable as anything else. To ignore scripture as well as mountains of archeological evidence to make the claim that the existence of God is one of "faith" is absurd at best. The leftists do this to try to sway as many gullible as they can that one can believe anything.

I cannot "see" air so I guess using the leftist ideology, air doesn't exist. That would of course assume that I know everything, (I don't and have never claimed to). I do rely on the Bible and on my experience with God rather than the absurd "logic" that the left attempts to force on the gullible.

"If the mission is noble"? Which human being knows enough to determine that the "mission is noble"? As scripture readily tells us, God's ways are not our ways. We didn't create something from nothing. I didn't send my Son to die on a cross for humankind. I cannot even "save" myself.

The only way to find out the Reality is to examine one's own mind for that Mind is the source of all knowledge which analyses the material world in conjunction with the spiritual realm of existence.

Going back to square one, we are all animals in the jungle of Nature so there are no reasons for the division of humanity between good, the bad and the ugly elements that we know to exist in Nature. It is not selection of the genes fittest to the environment or else the evil element will predominate societies and the good and routinal elements will be wiped out just like the dinosaurs who grew to vicious and large on the Planet Earth. The fact that as a global humanity the good, the bad and the ugly can still live together within societies and globally should be seen as evidence that there are other forces at play from the spiritual dimension.

The mind needs to be free from the shackles of restrictions imposed upon it from one's beliefs, missions, ambitions, plans, objectives, duties, responsibilities, schemes, tactics, ulterior motives, karma,dharma etc to be able to free flow in freethought and free-reationalism in order to know how one needs to determiine the truth through a yoga of truth accommodation going forwards with a set of hypothesised criteria that one continually tests and reviews to turn one's faith into devotion (bhakti) if one is lucky enough get to this promised land of mukti/nirvana/moksha where there is sheer ananda or happiness and one is stoical to the miseries that life throws at one because one has determined that pre-ordained and pre-orchestrated nature of the events in the universe and navigating myself thus nonchalantly, spontaneously and unpremeditatedly in whatever one does each moment of the day.

Never say never again will I not be a theist for without faith there in knowledge to be had/gained. It is all within one's mind. The mind has to raise itself from the lower place to a higher plane by losing all one's attachments to operate at the interface between the mind and the Supermind (OM)/God, so that one is still in control of ones material circumstances yet having access to the totality of awareness of one's circumstances and with a therefore sharpened intellect to deal with the evil elements of Nature with the required survival instinct needed.

That is how one is liberated from the samsara yet living fully immersed in Creation at the rajasic mode of travel and not the sattvic or tamasaic modes which are destructive to Nature. If one prefects this raison detre, God has His way of protecting and Saving the religious person practicing this religion of Vaishnavism according to the philosophy of Vishista Advaita Vedanta.

That is what I believe in at the age of 64.

[RV]

The only way to find out the Reality is to examine one's own mind for that Mind is the source of all knowledge which analyses the material world in conjunction with the spiritual realm of existence.

Going back to square one, we are all animals in the jungle of Nature so there are no reasons for the division of humanity between good, the bad and the ugly elements that we know to exist in Nature. It is not selection of the genes fittest to the environment or else the evil element will predominate societies and the good and routinal elements will be wiped out just like the dinosaurs who grew to vicious and large on the Planet Earth. The fact that as a global humanity the good, the bad and the ugly can still live together within societies and globally should be seen as evidence that there are other forces at play from the spiritual dimension.

The mind needs to be free from the shackles of restrictions imposed upon it from one's beliefs, missions, ambitions, plans, objectives, duties, responsibilities, schemes, tactics, ulterior motives, karma,dharma etc to be able to free flow in freethought and free-reationalism in order to know how one needs to determiine the truth through a yoga of truth accommodation going forwards with a set of hypothesised criteria that one continually tests and reviews to turn one's faith into devotion (bhakti) if one is lucky enough get to this promised land of mukti/nirvana/moksha where there is sheer ananda or happiness and one is stoical to the miseries that life throws at one because one has determined that pre-ordained and pre-orchestrated nature of the events in the universe and navigating myself thus nonchalantly, spontaneously and unpremeditatedly in whatever one does each moment of the day.

Never say never again will I not be a theist for without faith there in knowledge to be had/gained. It is all within one's mind. The mind has to raise itself from the lower place to a higher plane by losing all one's attachments to operate at the interface between the mind and the Supermind (OM)/God, so that one is still in control of ones material circumstances yet having access to the totality of awareness of one's circumstances and with a therefore sharpened intellect to deal with the evil elements of Nature with the required survival instinct needed.

That is how one is liberated from the samsara yet living fully immersed in Creation at the rajasic mode of travel and not the sattvic or tamasaic modes which are destructive to Nature. If one prefects this raison detre, God has His way of protecting and Saving the religious person practicing this religion of Vaishnavism according to the philosophy of Vishista Advaita Vedanta.

That is what I believe in at the age of 64.

One thing that I know, have experienced and have proven, that is you cannot force someone to really investigate salvation if they are determined to ignore evidence. Jesus Himself never forced anyone and there is nothing in scripture which would indicate that followers should even try. While the Lord Himself said that He didn't want anyone to be perish, He knew that there would be some.

[Hoofer]

One thing that I know, have experienced and have proven, that is you cannot force someone to really investigate salvation if they are determined to ignore evidence. Jesus Himself never forced anyone and there is nothing in scripture which would indicate that followers should even try. While the Lord Himself said that He didn't want anyone to be perish, He knew that there would be some.

Jesus doesn't need to force anyone to sin, "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

Or in a better context - absolutely NOBODY is good enough, or even desires to seek God our Creator
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.  (Romans 3:9-18)


People take the Living God out of the life equation, and either assume there is no real Heaven (we either die like dogs or get recycled into another life), attempt to recreate their own version of "heaven", or figure God is stupid enough to allow corruption to enter into His Holiness.  Heaven is "God's Place" - not ours.   We have no inherent "right" to enter into God's place/home, because we are sinners, we are corrupt, polluted, twisted...   Heaven would be an awful place if sin ever entered in.

The really SAD verse I quoted, "There is no fear of God before their eyes."   Not the trembling kind of "fear" but the "reverence" kind of fear, the respectful, adoration, 'Thou are King' kind of fear, for the Giver of Life.  We all deserve to spend eternity somewhere else, besides God's Heaven, just on that alone, disrespect of our Creator, or God.