Atheism and Trans: a debate

[p1tchblack]

How do you figure?
If I sit and ponder what I want to think about, and pick one of 10 subjects to delve into, did I not just exhibit free will?

If you decided to think of 10 subjects and then select one from those, do you control which subjects come to mind to select from?  If I say "Think of a movie", there's a brief pause and then the names of movies start coming into consciousness, but you have no idea why those specific movies come into consciousness.  If you really pay attention, you'll see it's almost like someone is whispering them into your ear.  If you spend as long as you want, trying to think of a movie, do you control whether or not, for example  Casa Blanca, never comes to mind?  I assume you've heard of Casa Blanca, but are you free to chose a movie that doesn't come to mind?

If you ever pay attention to what it feels like to think, you'd realize that you don't control the thoughts that come to mind. You can be sitting on the couch watching football and suddenly think "Did I close the garage door?" or "I really need to lose weight." If earlier in the day, you were trying to remember the name of someone from high school and, for the life of you, couldn't remember, then 2 days later, while driving, suddenly the name comes to you, do you believe that you had any control of what you forgot or why you later remembered?

[Solar]

If you decided to think of 10 subjects and then select one from those, do you control which subjects come to mind to select from?  If I say "Think of a movie", there's a brief pause and then the names of movies start coming into consciousness, but you have no idea why those specific movies come into consciousness.  If you really pay attention, you'll see it's almost like someone is whispering them into your ear.  If you spend as long as you want, trying to think of a movie, do you control whether or not, for example  Casa Blanca, never comes to mind?  I assume you've heard of Casa Blanca, but are you free to chose a movie that doesn't come to mind?

If you ever pay attention to what it feels like to think, you'd realize that you don't control the thoughts that come to mind. You can be sitting on the couch watching football and suddenly think "Did I close the garage door?" or "I really need to lose weight." If earlier in the day, you were trying to remember the name of someone from high school and, for the life of you, couldn't remember, then 2 days later, while driving, suddenly the name comes to you, do you believe that you had any control of what you forgot or why you later remembered?

If you're trying to make a point, you failed miserably.

If a brick falls on your head and you say ouch, did you control the thought to say ow, or did the imamate brick make you do it?
Every thought is yours and yours alone, you are the one that places experience ahead of conclusion, this is known as critical thought, and the older and wiser you become, the more you brush aside silly people and their silly ideas.

So.....What is your silly point?

[p1tchblack]

If you're trying to make a point, you failed miserably.

If a brick falls on your head and you say ouch, did you control the thought to say ow, or did the imamate brick make you do it?

No.  You experienced the thought, which resulted in the action, but you didn't consciously author the thought.  The thought occurred, and entered your consciousness, outside of your control.

Every thought is yours and yours alone, you are the one that places experience ahead of conclusion, this is known as critical thought, and the older and wiser you become, the more you brush aside silly people and their silly ideas.

Yes, every thought you have originates from your brain and, yes, every past experience, which you don't control, along with your genes is what determines your thoughts.  An awareness of laws/consequences is part of the reason many people don't kill others.

So.....What is your silly point?

[RV]

If you're trying to make a point, you failed miserably.

If a brick falls on your head and you say ouch, did you control the thought to say ow, or did the imamate brick make you do it?
Every thought is yours and yours alone, you are the one that places experience ahead of conclusion, this is known as critical thought, and the older and wiser you become, the more you brush aside silly people and their silly ideas.

So.....What is your silly point?

I've talked with people like him before, it is a waste of time. They will argue for the sake of arguing. You can't use logic because logic is not consistent with their illogical lunacy. The Lord tells us in His word that narrow is the way and few who find it.

[p1tchblack]

I've talked with people like him before, it is a waste of time. They will argue for the sake of arguing. You can't use logic because logic is not consistent with their illogical lunacy. The Lord tells us in His word that narrow is the way and few who find it.

I'm only expressing truths about our brains. There is no "thinker" in our brain. We don't consciously author our thoughts and we have no idea what thought will enter our consciousness next; we simply experience the flow of thought. It's those thoughts that determine nearly everything that makes us human.

[Solar]

No.  You experienced the thought, which resulted in the action, but you didn't consciously author the thought.  The thought occurred, and entered your consciousness, outside of your control.
Yes, every thought you have originates from your brain and, yes, every past experience, which you don't control, along with your genes is what determines your thoughts.  An awareness of laws/consequences is part of the reason many people don't kill others.

Still, you haven't made a point. Poets, artists and creators of every sort, these are their thoughts, not yours or mine, but their creativity is their own.
I can't play music, I can't draw worth a shit, but I can think outside the box.

You, on the other hand are convinced you are controlled by your environment, while I, control mine and my destiny.

[Solar]

I've talked with people like him before, it is a waste of time. They will argue for the sake of arguing. You can't use logic because logic is not consistent with their illogical lunacy. The Lord tells us in His word that narrow is the way and few who find it.

I'm still trying to figure out what his point is.

[p1tchblack]

Still, you haven't made a point. Poets, artists and creators of every sort, these are their thoughts, not yours or mine, but their creativity is their own.
I can't play music, I can't draw worth a shit, but I can think outside the box.

You, on the other hand are convinced you are controlled by your environment, while I, control mine and my destiny.

As I said before, yes, the thoughts that originate in your brain are "yours"  moreso than anyone else's, but you don't author them. You don't know what thought is going to arise in your consciousness next.  Try to think your next thought before it arises in your consciousness. Our subjective experience makes us believe that we are in the river banks watching our thoughts flow by, when "we" are simply the flow of thought.  We aren't independent from it.

We got off on this tangent because it was said, in another post, that we have free will and there's simply no basis for that belief.

[Possum]

The glory of which god? :)  Almost all religions have a creation story, so all the followers can "see" the glory of their particular god around them.  If one of the gods, like the Christian god, were to perform modern day miracles  as he used to do, it would be easy to know which god/religion to follow.

Just because you do not see does not mean it does not exist. You admit there were past miracles, but you need them to be continued for you to believe. How often would those miracles have to be preformed? Daily? Weekly? The fact that they were preformed is somehow not good enough for you, but it is for us. If you are trying to convince someone that there is no God, you have a very weak argument.

[Possum]

I'm only expressing truths about our brains. There is no "thinker" in our brain. We don't consciously author our thoughts and we have no idea what thought will enter our consciousness next; we simply experience the flow of thought. It's those thoughts that determine nearly everything that makes us human.

And yet there is a different level in intelligence not only in mankind, but in different species as well. If you were describing Joe Biden, I might agree with you as he does not seem to be able to think on his own, but the fact that someone is doing the thinking for him pretty much blows that theory out of the water. By the way, did you "think" this up, or just read what someone else wrote?

[RV]

And yet there is a different level in intelligence not only in mankind, but in different species as well. If you were describing Joe Biden, I might agree with you as he does not seem to be able to think on his own, but the fact that someone is doing the thinking for him pretty much blows that theory out of the water. By the way, did you "think" this up, or just read what someone else wrote?

The "point" he is trying to make, justify and push as "fact" is that he isn't responsible for his thoughts, actions, etc. As if he is a robot and has no control over what he thinks, says and does. He like so many think that they can somehow justify sin by claiming that he couldn't help himself. It is in direct contradiction to scripture, it is in direct contradiction to human law and it is in direct contradiction to freedom. It is NOT fact, merely his opinion to make himself "feel" better about what he's done, said, thought, etc. As scripture clearly tells us, many will attempt to argue with God that they were not in control but, just as God tells us in His word, He will tell them "Depart from me, I never knew you..."

[Solar]

As I said before, yes, the thoughts that originate in your brain are "yours"  moreso than anyone else's, but you don't author them. You don't know what thought is going to arise in your consciousness next.  Try to think your next thought before it arises in your consciousness. Our subjective experience makes us believe that we are in the river banks watching our thoughts flow by, when "we" are simply the flow of thought.  We aren't independent from it.

We got off on this tangent because it was said, in another post, that we have free will and there's simply no basis for that belief.

Now this is fascinating. You deny Gods existence, yet claim our thoughts are not our own?

So am I too assume everyone is without soul, only says and does what they are told by? And there is as far as you got.
You have finally gotten to the point of clarification that God doesn't exist and neither does freewill.

So what is this entity you're trying to claim inhabits the human body? Who told you to say this and are there several of these voices in your head and do they all get along?

I worked with an old guy decades ago who suffered from schizophrenia, he was a gentle giant of a man, but he admitted he had other companions sharing space in his head.
He'd quietly go about his work, looking back and forth, as if people are on his left and right, comment quietly to them, smile, sometimes get angry, but never violent.

Then one day we were in the barn working, I noticed Levi wasn't talking or reacting to the voices, so I asked if everything was OK.
He looked at me, smiled and said, "They're mad at me", chuckled and went back to work.

I'll never know if he was relieved for the peace, or missed them, he died that year at 70.

Did his occupiers die as will, were they real, was he the one in control of his own self and how many do you hear?

[p1tchblack]

Just because you do not see does not mean it does not exist. You admit there were past miracles, but you need them to be continued for you to believe. How often would those miracles have to be preformed? Daily? Weekly? The fact that they were preformed is somehow not good enough for you, but it is for us. If you are trying to convince someone that there is no God, you have a very weak argument.

I admit that the Bible states that there were past miracles and, if God had done several things differently, including performing Bible-era type of miracles, there wouldn't be 2/3 of the earth looking at spending eternity in Hell, Sheol, etc.

[Possum]

I admit that the Bible states that there were past miracles and, if God had done several things differently, including performing Bible-era type of miracles,

I have never known anyone who felt they were so perfect they could judge God, until now. 

there wouldn't be 2/3 of the earth looking at spending eternity in Hell, Sheol, etc.

If these 2/3 looking at spending eternity in hell can not think for themselves, why would it matter what God did differently?

[Hoofer]

I admit that the Bible states that there were past miracles and, if God had done several things differently, including performing Bible-era type of miracles, there wouldn't be 2/3 of the earth looking at spending eternity in Hell, Sheol, etc.

God, our Creator, actually raises up some BAD people to judge GOOD people, who are not behaving.
Pharoah, was a BAD guy, headed to hell, because that was his NATURE.  God *hardened* his heart, so he would continue to do terrible things to Israel. 

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."  Romans 9:14-18

Pharaoh had his ready made answer to Moses ... kinda like *yours* ... "Who is the Lord???"

"And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go. And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword."  Exodus 5:2-3

Note that Israel *did* warn Pharaoh, ".. lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword." - and that came a little later.

In the next chapter, God tells Moses, what it would "take" to release Israel, after God worked over Pharaoh ... His chosen vessel of judgement - a "Strong Hand", and... he would want to get RID of Israel, they would pillage the Egypt of it's wealth as they left - God wanted them OUT, Pharaoh was gonna beg them to leave, "and take what you want!  just get OUT!"   That's pretty difficult to "set up" as a prophecy, unless the "heart of the king is in the Lords hand".

"Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land." Exodus 6:1

The most common phrase in Exodus, "...the heart of Pharaoh was hardened.." repeated after each plague was lifted... was he stupid?  Slow learner?  Or bound by his own rebellious *nature* to reject God?

Pharaoh had a few moments,
"And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked. 28Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer. "  Exodus 9:27-28

a little glimmer of hope while under judgement, but, the moment a plague was lifted, meh... the old Pharaoh re-emerges again, not just Pharaoh, but his servants too.  It's one thing to *admit* you're a sinner, but, stopping short of receiving God's gift of salvation... so easy, yet too hard for Pharaoh, he LOVED his sin, more than God.

"And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.  Exodus 9:34-35

Up to this point, it's Pharaoh's sinful nature, his deceit, guiding his decision making - like he's somehow *bound* to keep doing bad things, cries like a child when he's spanked, and the moment God's hand is lifted, he goes right back ... like he knows no other way, but deceit, he's a slave to sin. 
But, God is *using* Pharaoh to teach Israel Who He is, a mighty, powerful Savior, worthy of being worshipped, thanked, followed & obeyed - I guess, Israel isn't quite ready (in their hearts) because, God does something really interesting - God hardens Pharaoh's heart.

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD."  Exodus 10:1-2

Pharaoh does not have the ability to CHOOSE, he has no free will.  Pharaoh is bound by the curse of sin, just as every human ever born is/was.  In the spiritual sense, Pharaoh & his servants were "spiritually dead".   The smartest man & his servants in Egypt ... worshipped stone, wood & bronze...?  Demonstration after demonstration of God's power over all the things they worshipped, prayed to, or gave honor to... yet, Pharaoh & staff wouldn'd heed the Living God, but, returned to dead idols. 

It's not in the heart of unregenerate man to seek God.  God draws man, gives examples of His power, judgment, mercy and grace.  God doesn't give 20 options, only one way, which is through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ.  There is no other way.  If there was *another* way, Jesus wouldn't have come to die on the cross for our sins, to pay the complete penalty for our sins, to satisfy the wrath of the Father via His death on the cross.  It little wonder He said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)


Our BEST effort to be like God, to please God, to pay our sin debt, falls far short of God's perfection.
Even if we managed to never sin again - we still need to contend with what sins we've already committed.  I know, I tried.  My best efforts, fell flat.  I needed Someone on the "inside" someone Who could pay-my-bill-in-full to satisfy God's justice.  I found that Savior, and made that transaction in my living room, by myself, me and God, January 17th, 1984.  I really didn't think God wanted anything to do with me!   But, He proved His love, and took away some bad desires, replacing them with some really good desires.  No bells, angels singing, waving hands, just me begging God to have mercy on me, and God showing, "Jesus paid it all.  Trust in His finished work."  I did, as Abraham & David did.

(sorry for the long post, it was necessary to keep what I wanted to say in the Biblical CONTEXT.)