Quote from: Solar on July 10, 2015, 05:46:51 PM
Look up the meaning of Statesman. I consider myself a Statesman as a solid Conservative, while a lib is the exact opposite.

What you are and what a lib is not have to do with my questions?  I'm not talking about politics, those in power and governance. 

I'm talking about the logic of what the judge said which is on the lines of the phrase "The world doesn't owe you anything; you owe the world."   

Let me try to break this down more specifically.

Let's consider a-z who are people who consists of those on the planet.

From a's view he is considered "I" when perceiving the world from himself.
From b's view he is considered "I" when perceiving the world from himself.

.
.
.
.
From z's view he is considered "I" when perceiving the world from himself.

By the logic of I owing the world, let's call myself "c," then I "c" owe a-z including myself.

By the logic of I owing the world, then "a" who sees himself as "I" owes a-z including himself or what he would consider myself.

Let's assume x1 as a variable that can take people a-z as values. 

By the logic of I owing the world, then "a1 as myself representing all of the perception of the selves" owe a1 or every value of a1 owes every value of a1.


Let's look at the logic of the statement "The world does not owe me."

Let's assume we have a-z as people in the world again.

What this says is I'm not owed by a-z including myself as c.

Let's assign a1 that can hold values a-z again.   

So

a1 is not owed by a1 or no value that is assignable to a1 is owed by any value assignable to a1.   

Which is it?   Does a1 owe a1 or is a1 not owed by a1 or more specifically does a owe b or is b not owed by a?

The judge and others are making the assumption that these two statements can hold up at the same time in the same instance.  What I'm asking is how?   How is this logically so?

QuoteOh, you foolish man....

Another ad hominem attack huh?

QuoteIt is called "faith" for a good reason.  It is beyond proof in the physical realm.  There is no argument to be made.  You either "get it" or you don't.  If you don't..... accept the fact that it has not been providential.

If you cannot accept the concept of a Creator God...... that is your problem.  But EVERY man is without excuse because God has revealed Himself to all men through nature. 

Okay, Wait a minute.  You just said that it is beyond proof in the physical realm and either I get it or I do not.   You're saying God revealed himself to all men through nature.

Let's go to the Oxford dictionary of what nature is.   I think these two definitions apply.

QuoteThe phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations and The physical force regarded as causing and regulating these phenomena.

Unless I'm mistaken, you're telling me to look at and examine nature since God revealed himself through nature.  Isn't nature in the physical realm.  You're telling me to use the physical realm that God has revealed himself in yet at the same time you're telling me it is beyond proof in the physical realm?  If its beyond proof in the physical realm and nature is a part of this physical real then how can I use nature to know God at all and God's existence? 

You're telling me to use nature and at the same time nature is not possible to use.   Am I understanding you correctly?

Now let's look at this logic.

Quoteaccept the fact that it has not been providential



If you really had a hunger for truth it would be made obvious to all.   ...... it is not.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/providential   

There are two definitions I think we can accept which are Occurring at a favorable time; opportune: and Involving divine foresight or intervention:

Let's look at what you said as well.

QuoteIf you cannot accept the concept of a Creator God...... that is your problem.  But EVERY man is without excuse because God has revealed Himself to all men through nature.

How is every man without excuse when based upon these definitions it would require God to intervene himself and there would have to be a favorable time and opportune given?   Basically, you're saying that God hasn't intervened, there isn't a  favorable time(both conditions may or may not be true) or opportune and at the same time you're saying it is my problem meaning it is my fault?   How is this true?   

Your answers are inconsistent and contradictory.  If something is not an opportune or favorable time then it's not meant to have this something or to do this something at the given time (or at all) and if God would have to reveal himself to me especially if he formed thee with a given nature (Yes, I'm a part of nature as well and so is my neurology) then how is it my problem meaning my fault? 

Let's say the Bible is inerrant, holy and divine and the author, God, is as well.  I will accept.  You're as human and sinful as me, correct?  This is a part of our nature, correct?   So, how can you be sure that you're representing God and the holy Bible correctly and anything you receive from God is actually from God if you're imperfect, a sinner, and broken?  You're expecting man whom is fallible to be able to discern what is infallible, complete, perfect and divine?   In addition to my being these things since I am a man I with an Autism Spectrum disorder with a possible Pragmatic Disorder is expected to somehow divine these things and/or ask God to divine these things(in the right way with the right mind and heart) and be expected to understand what is divined with my sinful heart, my autism spectrum disorder and my pragmatic disorder which is a part of my given nature?   How?   

How can you as a sinful woman be expected to discern what is perfect, holy, divine and complete?  How can you be sure that what you believe has been revealed or divine is actually the truth and not some deception by Satan or your own mind?  It's like asking a schizophrenic man to discern what is actually real and rational when his state of mind doesn't allow him to be these things.  How does one truthfully not be foolish?  How can one who knows he is unwise and who is a fool can discern what is wise and non-foolish thoughts when one's mind, body, heart and soul is compromised?

Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 05:13:09 AM
Another ad hominem attack huh?

Okay, Wait a minute.  You just said that it is beyond proof in the physical realm and either I get it or I do not.   You're saying God revealed himself to all men through nature.

Let's go to the Oxford dictionary of what nature is.   I think these two definitions apply.

Unless I'm mistaken, you're telling me to look at and examine nature since God revealed himself through nature.  Isn't nature in the physical realm.  You're telling me to use the physical realm that God has revealed himself in yet at the same time you're telling me it is beyond proof in the physical realm?  If its beyond proof in the physical realm and nature is a part of this physical real then how can I use nature to know God at all and God's existence? 

You're telling me to use nature and at the same time nature is not possible to use.   Am I understanding you correctly?

Now let's look at this logic.



http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/providential   

There are two definitions I think we can accept which are Occurring at a favorable time; opportune: and Involving divine foresight or intervention:

Let's look at what you said as well.

How is every man without excuse when based upon these definitions it would require God to intervene himself and there would have to be a favorable time and opportune given?   Basically, you're saying that God hasn't intervened, there isn't a  favorable time(both conditions may or may not be true) or opportune and at the same time you're saying it is my problem meaning it is my fault?   How is this true?   

Your answers are inconsistent and contradictory.  If something is not an opportune or favorable time then it's not meant to have this something or to do this something at the given time (or at all) and if God would have to reveal himself to me especially if he formed thee with a given nature (Yes, I'm a part of nature as well and so is my neurology) then how is it my problem meaning my fault? 

Let's say the Bible is inerrant, holy and divine and the author, God, is as well.  I will accept.  You're as human and sinful as me, correct?  This is a part of our nature, correct?   So, how can you be sure that you're representing God and the holy Bible correctly and anything you receive from God is actually from God if you're imperfect, a sinner, and broken?  You're expecting man whom is fallible to be able to discern what is infallible, complete, perfect and divine?   In addition to my being these things since I am a man I with an Autism Spectrum disorder with a possible Pragmatic Disorder is expected to somehow divine these things and/or ask God to divine these things(in the right way with the right mind and heart) and be expected to understand what is divined with my sinful heart, my autism spectrum disorder and my pragmatic disorder which is a part of my given nature?   How?   

How can you as a sinful woman be expected to discern what is perfect, holy, divine and complete?  How can you be sure that what you believe has been revealed or divine is actually the truth and not some deception by Satan or your own mind?  It's like asking a schizophrenic man to discern what is actually real and rational when his state of mind doesn't allow him to be these things.  How does one truthfully not be foolish?  How can one who knows he is unwise and who is a fool can discern what is wise and non-foolish thoughts when one's mind, body, heart and soul is compromised?

We are ALL born as fools and with sinful natures.  Therefore we all sin.

God has revealed himself to ALL of us through nature but not all of us want to accept the proof.

You need not read the entire Bible to understand God's plan for man.  Simply read the Book of Romans.

Chapter one explains the revelation through nature issue.

Chapter six explains sin and salvation issues.

When you finally get down to Chapter nine it explains the providential aspects of our life. ..... why some believe and some do not.

However, you must accept that the Scripture is inspired by God and not the whim of some human author.

You are on your own now big boy.......  go read!

Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 04:39:54 AM
What you are and what a lib is not have to do with my questions?  I'm not talking about politics, those in power and governance. 

I'm talking about the logic of what the judge said which is on the lines of the phrase "The world doesn't owe you anything; you owe the world."   

Stop right there and quit being so damned myopic and literal.
Apply Statesman to daily family/community/life in general and forget the political equation.
A Statesman puts others before himself.

If everyone took this approach again, we'd be living in the 50s once more, because that was how our culture used to be, where others looked out for what was best for the community/country as a whole.
What the judge was saying was, quit being selfish, like liberals are today.

A statesman does not see today as imperative as is tomorrow, for what occurs today, effects tomorrow.
Like debt, he would never incur debt upon his family he alone is unwilling or unable to pay, like that of our National debt and how our society is stealing from those not yet born.

A Statesman, like that of the farmer nurtures the future.
Taking his seeds and cooking them for a meal today, will not produce a meal tomorrow, so the Statesman/Farmer plants tomorrows meal knowing there is no guarantee he will be around to reap the harvest, and still he unselfishly plants regardless, knowing society as a whole will benefit from his labor when he is gone.

Quote from: Solar on July 12, 2015, 06:14:28 AM
Stop right there and quit being so damned myopic and literal.
Apply Statesman to daily family/community/life in general and forget the political equation.
A Statesman puts others before himself.

If everyone took this approach again, we'd be living in the 50s once more, because that was how our culture used to be, where others looked out for what was best for the community/country as a whole.
What the judge was saying was, quit being selfish, like liberals are today.

A statesman does not see today as imperative as is tomorrow, for what occurs today, effects tomorrow.
Like debt, he would never incur debt upon his family he alone is unwilling or unable to pay, like that of our National debt and how our society is stealing from those not yet born.

A Statesman, like that of the farmer nurtures the future.
Taking his seeds and cooking them for a meal today, will not produce a meal tomorrow, so the Statesman/Farmer plants tomorrows meal knowing there is no guarantee he will be around to reap the harvest, and still he unselfishly plants regardless, knowing society as a whole will benefit from his labor when he is gone.

One other point, drop that alphanumeric bull shit, if you can't explain it in simple terms, then don't, I have no interest in following your derailed logic.

Okay, now I understand what that phrase means.   So, all it really is, is a figure of speech.   Here is the thing.  I am okay with simple metaphors, figure of speech and other figurative language but complex figurative language which implied a concept is not what I'm good at.   

What we have is a communication barrier due to my ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder).   So, a number of things that are implied, a number of times I do not pick it up unless it is blatantly obvious to me. 

In essence, we're speaking two different forms of English.

QuoteStop right there and quit being so damned myopic and literal.

I am learning here and trying to make a concerted effort but it is difficult for me to do that as I am a concrete and literal thinker who has difficulties with abstract language even though I have gotten better since my early years.   

I just can't stop on a dime though and to learn your language and your communication style I would need intricate help to do so even though I've made some strides to do so. 

Another thing, the alphanumeric bull shit as you call it is simple for me.  I never thought it wouldn't be simple for you and others and can't conceive how it wouldn't be simple for others.   I have problems understanding other people's thinking and why they think the way they do.   It baffles me that you would not see this as simple when to me it is simple.   This is called a theory of mind deficit.  Here is what theory of mind is my friend.   I will quit using it but sometimes I don't know how to convey my point any other way but I will figure out another way though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

I have theory of mind issues so there are cases in which I can't read people's non-verbal language, implied communication, facial expressions, what their intentions are and why they have them.  As an example, I don't know why quiller is posting a pic of a man yawning and what he is getting at.   

I don't understand why people on here think I'm screwing or playing with them.  These things are beyond my comprehension.   

Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 04:02:52 PM

I don't understand why people on here think I'm screwing or playing with them.  These things are beyond my comprehension.

Then you should be seeing a psychiatrist as much as it takes for you to get help or over it.   I would not come to a board forum if I need stitches in my arm I would see a MD.  But that's just my way of thinking. 

Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 04:02:52 PM
Okay, now I understand what that phrase means.   So, all it really is, is a figure of speech.   Here is the thing.  I am okay with simple metaphors, figure of speech and other figurative language but complex figurative language which implied a concept is not what I'm good at.   

What we have is a communication barrier due to my ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder).   So, a number of things that are implied, a number of times I do not pick it up unless it is blatantly obvious to me. 

In essence, we're speaking two different forms of English.

I am learning here and trying to make a concerted effort but it is difficult for me to do that as I am a concrete and literal thinker who has difficulties with abstract language even though I have gotten better since my early years.   

I just can't stop on a dime though and to learn your language and your communication style I would need intricate help to do so even though I've made some strides to do so. 

Another thing, the alphanumeric bull shit as you call it is simple for me.  I never thought it wouldn't be simple for you and others and can't conceive how it wouldn't be simple for others.   I have problems understanding other people's thinking and why they think the way they do.   It baffles me that you would not see this as simple when to me it is simple.   This is called a theory of mind deficit.  Here is what theory of mind is my friend.   I will quit using it but sometimes I don't know how to convey my point any other way but I will figure out another way though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

I have theory of mind issues so there are cases in which I can't read people's non-verbal language, implied communication, facial expressions, what their intentions are and why they have them.  As an example, I don't know why quiller is posting a pic of a man yawning and what he is getting at.   

I don't understand why people on here think I'm screwing or playing with them.  These things are beyond my comprehension.

I get it, but complicating something to understand it, makes comprehending it even harder.
Your need for alphanumeric breakdown, is like trying to explain a bicycle wheel, except that you include the effect of gravity, centrifugal force, weight distribution, rotation of the earth into the equation, when all that was necessary was to say, it's round with spokes and spins.
You complicate the simplest of issues, there must be books available that can help you gain the tools to grasp the simplest of concepts, right?

Q's pic, what does it signify? What does a yawning man mean to you?
What do you do when you're at a boring lecture, you're hungry, have so many other things to do, what does your body do in anticipation of leaving, yet you have to sit regardless?

Your posts have that same effect on many, not me, but many.

Ya know, it's odd, but there is an anime cartoon called Naruto, and one of the characters name is Sai (sounds like Sigh) he is you.
I kid you not, he cannot read people, at all, he is in constant study of their actions, usually misinterprets them and gets in trouble, but he's an affable sort.

If you can, see if you can find this cartoon, you'll get a kick out of the character, I know you will.
Though he lacks emotion, he has many of the same issues you portray.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sai

Quote from: Solar on July 12, 2015, 04:38:50 PM
Q's pic, what does it signify? What does a yawning man mean to you?
What do you do when you're at a boring lecture, you're hungry, have so many other things to do, what does your body do in anticipation of leaving, yet you have to sit regardless?

Your posts have that same effect on many, not me, but many.

That wasn't my photo offering, but yes --- what DOES a yawning man mean to this kid?

Quote from: quiller on July 12, 2015, 06:44:28 PM
That wasn't my photo offering, but yes --- what DOES a yawning man mean to this kid?

Yeah, he has the affect.

QuoteI get it, but complicating something to understand it, makes comprehending it even harder.

I understand.   For me, some things are just complicatedly simple meaning I can understand the most complex of things like the Min-Max Algorithm which I used to create an AI player in a class I had.   Tell me something simple like simplistic phrases and I can get lost in the details instead of the gestalt. 

QuoteYour need for alphanumeric breakdown, is like trying to explain a bicycle wheel, except that you include the effect of gravity, centrifugal force, weight distribution, rotation of the earth into the equation, when all that was necessary was to say, it's round with spokes and spins.

It is an issue I have.   Sometimes, I don't realize all I need to say is that it is round with spokes and it spins. 

QuoteYou complicate the simplest of issues, there must be books available that can help you gain the tools to grasp the simplest of concepts, right?

That's a wonderful idea.  I didn't think of it.  I wonder if a "For Dummies" book would help. 

QuoteQ's pic, what does it signify? What does a yawning man mean to you?
What do you do when you're at a boring lecture, you're hungry, have so many other things to do, what does your body do in anticipation of leaving, yet you have to sit regardless?

Your posts have that same effect on many, not me, but many.

Ok I understand and I didn't realize that my posts had that effect on many. 

QuoteYa know, it's odd, but there is an anime cartoon called Naruto, and one of the characters name is Sai (sounds like Sigh) he is you.
I kid you not, he cannot read people, at all, he is in constant study of their actions, usually misinterprets them and gets in trouble, but he's an affable sort.

If you can, see if you can find this cartoon, you'll get a kick out of the character, I know you will.
Though he lacks emotion, he has many of the same issues you portray.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sai

I'm going to take you up on that.  I think I will go watch it.

Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 08:33:28 PM
I understand.   For me, some things are just complicatedly simple meaning I can understand the most complex of things like the Min-Max Algorithm which I used to create an AI player in a class I had.   Tell me something simple like simplistic phrases and I can get lost in the details instead of the gestalt. 

It is an issue I have.   Sometimes, I don't realize all I need to say is that it is round with spokes and it spins. 

That's a wonderful idea.  I didn't think of it.  I wonder if a "For Dummies" book would help. 

Ok I understand and I didn't realize that my posts had that effect on many. 

I'm going to take you up on that.  I think I will go watch it.

I bet they do, considering many have the same issues as you, some more, some less.
Hell, I can be the slowest guy in the room at times, and now that my hearing isn't what it used to be, only makes it worse when they repeat it and I still don't get it.

Quote from: kroz on July 12, 2015, 05:34:37 AM
We are ALL born as fools and with sinful natures.  Therefore we all sin.

God has revealed himself to ALL of us through nature but not all of us want to accept the proof.

You need not read the entire Bible to understand God's plan for man.  Simply read the Book of Romans.

Chapter one explains the revelation through nature issue.

Chapter six explains sin and salvation issues.

When you finally get down to Chapter nine it explains the providential aspects of our life. ..... why some believe and some do not.

However, you must accept that the Scripture is inspired by God and not the whim of some human author.

You are on your own now big boy.......  go read!

I read chapter 1 of Romans.  I am so confused by what some of it says especially verse 20 when it says " For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." 

Looking at verse 20 how can God have invisible qualities that have been clearly seen?

Look at verses 21 - 27.  Again, I am extremely confused.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ...............

So, because there were those who neither glorified God nor gave thanks to God they had their free will taken away since God gave them over to their sinful desires.   If they were given to their sinful desires and they had no other choice because they chose not to glorify God or give thanks to him then how can they be expected to repent and choose again to glorify God and give thanks to him again if the ability to choose to do that has been taken away?   I am extremely and utterly confused by what these passages say.

Quote from: cubedemon on July 16, 2015, 05:51:02 AM
I read chapter 1 of Romans.  I am so confused by what some of it says especially verse 20 when it says " For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." 

Looking at verse 20 how can God have invisible qualities that have been clearly seen?

Look at verses 21 - 27.  Again, I am extremely confused.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ...............

So, because there were those who neither glorified God nor gave thanks to God they had their free will taken away since God gave them over to their sinful desires.   If they were given to their sinful desires and they had no other choice because they chose not to glorify God or give thanks to him then how can they be expected to repent and choose again to glorify God and give thanks to him again if the ability to choose to do that has been taken away?   I am extremely and utterly confused by what these passages say.

Well, if you are confused now...... wait till you read chapter nine!!!

It is impossible to watch birds fly, plants grow, or do an indepth study of the human anatomy and not KNOW that their is a Creator.  All of this did not happen by random chance, spontaneous combustion or any other silliness.  Deep within us we KNOW there is a God.  What lies beyond the Universe as we know it?

Why do you exist????  Think about it.  Do you REALLY believe you have no purpose in life?

The root problem man has with a Creator God is that it puts "something" higher than man.  It requires an element of accountability to a higher being.

Because of our stubborn hearts we do not seek God because we really do not want to know the truth and therefore be accountable for the way we live our lives.  We are masters at creating all kinds of excuses for ignoring God.

And we can reach a point in our sinful denial of God that He will leave us to our own willful vile behaviors.  We will suffer the natural consequences of our foolishness.  Thinking that we have become wise, we become  blooming idiots!  God will not continue to reveal Himself to us.  He will allow us to go our merry way..... to destruction.

BUT, the wise man will look at creation and acknowledge a Creator exists.... and he will seek to know the Creator.

That is the beginning of truly living as God intended.  The more we seek God, the more of Himself he reveals to us.

Quote from: kroz on July 16, 2015, 06:32:06 AM
Well, if you are confused now...... wait till you read chapter nine!!!

QuoteIt is impossible to watch birds fly, plants grow, or do an indepth study of the human anatomy and not KNOW that their is a Creator.  All of this did not happen by random chance, spontaneous combustion or any other silliness.  Deep within us we KNOW there is a God.  What lies beyond the Universe as we know it?

Why do you exist????  Think about it.  Do you REALLY believe you have no purpose in life?

The root problem man has with a Creator God is that it puts "something" higher than man.  It requires an element of accountability to a higher being.

Because of our stubborn hearts we do not seek God because we really do not want to know the truth and therefore be accountable for the way we live our lives.  We are masters at creating all kinds of excuses for ignoring God.

And we can reach a point in our sinful denial of God that He will leave us to our own willful vile behaviors.  We will suffer the natural consequences of our foolishness.  Thinking that we have become wise, we become  blooming idiots!  God will not continue to reveal Himself to us.  He will allow us to go our merry way..... to destruction.

BUT, the wise man will look at creation and acknowledge a Creator exists.... and he will seek to know the Creator.

That is the beginning of truly living as God intended.  The more we seek God, the more of Himself he reveals to us.

And life suddenly makes sense.
Well said Kroz.