The Great Illyrian Revolt - Rome's Forgotten War

Started by milos, August 28, 2022, 09:00:00 AM

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milos

The Great Illyrian Revolt - Rome's Forgotten War


All Roman wars are well covered in history books, except for their wars against the Illyrians, which are put into obscurity for some reason. But when a Serbian sees that both Illyrian military leaders had the name "Bato", he immediately understands why. :lol:  :lol:  :lol: Then you would have to explain why both Illyrian leaders had Serbian name, and it would be inconvenient for the invented "great migration of the Slavs in 7th century" bullshit.

But a Serbian understands that "Bato" was not a personal name but a title. Because, "bato" or "bata" in Serbian means "brother" and "boy". Similarly as "seka" means "sister" and "girl". And "teta" means "aunt" and "lady". That is the original title of the famous Illyrian Queen Teuta - Teta, who fiercely fought against the Roman invasion, in the meaning of "Lady", and it's also not a personal name. It is like we called our General Draža Mihailović in WWII "Čiča" which means "Uncle".

They called me "bata" and "bato" whole my childhood, and how could I not understand then.

As an example, here is the most popular singer in former Yugoslavia, with the stage name Lepa Brena, calling her boyfriend "Bato". (A Bosnian Muslim girl with original name Fahreta Jahić who came to Serbia to start her career, that is how Serbians "hate" Bosnian Muslims. She was the most popular singer in Serbia, but also in Romania, Bulgaria, and Albania.)

One Christ. One Body of Christ. One Eucharist. One Church.

T Hunt

So you are saying that the title Bato was around before the slavs migrated to serbia and then was continued to be put into use even afterwards to this day? How old does the term go?
"Let's Go Brandon, I agree!"  -Biden

milos

Quote from: T Hunt on August 28, 2022, 11:34:01 AMSo you are saying that the title Bato was around before the slavs migrated to serbia and then was continued to be put into use even afterwards to this day? How old does the term go?

I am saying that the "Slavs" are native people of the Balkans and that there was no "great migration of the Slavs".

There have always been some migrations here and there of course, but not in such large scales as it is officially claimed that whole ethnic groups were replaced on large areas of land.

The language was a bit different 2,000 years ago but all languages are changing and evolving over centuries, and some words are still the same, like this "Bato".

Habsburg Empire called "South Slavs" "Illyrians" until the end of the 19th century, when they decided that Albanians should be Illyrians, because Austrians were affraid of the South Slavic Illyrian movement, which was precursor to the Yugoslav movement.

Actually, there are so many identical words in Latin and Serbian that it is certain that those two peoples lived together in ancient times. I like to take the example of the word for mother "mater" which is the same in Serbian and Latin, while in modern Italian it is "madre". It looks like the Serbians are more Latin than the Italians. There was even a Serbian linguist Pavle Solarić (1779-1821) who wrote a book called "Slavic Romans", in which he proved that the Latin language evolved from the Serbian language.

I found a good answer on internet about the Illyrian question.

Are Slavs autochtone to the Balkan peninsula, i.e., are they Illyrians?

Yes, they are.

Now, most of the answers here will be a no, but actually the people writing here are mostly Albanians that will never accept it.

The only proof we have about the "migration of Slavs" are 2 pages in a book that appeared in 1604. It only mentions Croats and Serbs. The book was written somewhere in the 9th century and never appeared until 1604. So you can argue that the book was re-written.

Most westerners support the idea that Albanians (Shqipetar/Arbëreshë) are Illyrians but it is actually forced upon this world. Albanians do not have native words for anything marine, all their words like sea, boat, ship, sea-fish and other are from Greek, Latin and Slavic. They lived in a tribal society until the 20th century, which contradicts the theory that they are Illyrians. The genetics show that they are closer to North Africans than Europeans and so on.

Unfortunately, not much is found bout Illyrians, but the thinks that are, are more similar to Slavs. There is a word "sika" meaning "something sharp that cuts" while a vulgar version exists in all south slavic languages "sikera" meaning the same... or the word "bra" meaning brother, "brat" in slavic and so on...

The mythology is also the same, while most beliefs are embedded into Christianity now. For example, Illyrians considered snakes as holy animals that guard your home, the same is considered in every south slavic nation today, and even today elder people say "do not kill snakes in your garden, it will bring us evil"

Also, the Slavic migration is absolutely impossible to achieve in that time. Between Russia and the Balkans existed a forest, called Perun's Forest, the largest in Europe maybe. Moving at least a 100000 people through it isn't possible without vehicles and modern methods. And if it was possible, why would someone like the Illyrians allow a peaceful tribe to take their land and eliminate their people? Why do Slavs have so many Greek and Latin words, when they lived far far from them? South Slavs have even 1000 words from Celtic language, but the Celtic invasion was before the so called "slavic migration"...

Genetic studies also show that the south Slavs belong to the proto-European nations, same as Scandinavian nations and Sardinians, due to the high amount of the proto-European haplogroup I (I1 is Scandinavian and I2 is south Slavic and Romanian).


https://www.quora.com/Are-Slavs-autochtone-to-the-Balkan-peninsula-i-e-are-they-Illyrians

And one example from Israeli PM Netanyahu the whole World ignores for some reason, it does not address the "Illyrians", but it speaks about the presence of the Serbs in the Mediterranean area from the ancient times.

PM Netanyahu: "The friendship between the Jewish and Serbian peoples goes back to thousands of years to the time of the Roman Republic."

One Christ. One Body of Christ. One Eucharist. One Church.

T Hunt

Surely there must have been some cultural continuity, but I thought that the region was pretty much empty after the romans? There were alot of other migrations that came thru the region like the goths and huns.

I wonder what the genetic data says?

Surely it seems that even if slavic people didnt move into the area, that at least the locals adopted parts of the slavic culture as there are cultural connections to the north and to the rest of the slavic world.
"Let's Go Brandon, I agree!"  -Biden

milos

Quote from: T Hunt on August 30, 2022, 07:20:24 AMSurely there must have been some cultural continuity, but I thought that the region was pretty much empty after the romans? There were alot of other migrations that came thru the region like the goths and huns.

I wonder what the genetic data says?

Surely it seems that even if slavic people didnt move into the area, that at least the locals adopted parts of the slavic culture as there are cultural connections to the north and to the rest of the slavic world.

I have never heard that the Balkan region was ever empty, on the contrary, it was pretty lively. And there was actually no "after the Romans", because there was still the Eastern Roman Empire covering at times the whole of the Balkans, and at times being reduced only to two cities, Constantinople and Thessaloniki.

Goths and Huns are questionable who were they, most likely both were a mix of various ethnicities, including Slavs.

Historical writings are usually not reliable, and many of them were forged. They were usually biased and written by the enemies, for example Romans and Greeks were describing their "barbarian" enemies in the worst possible way.

So I prefer the method of logic and common sense and intuition. :smile:



In this map for example, we see predominant Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe. Among South Slavs, it is I2, which is considered proto-European together with I1, and that fact alone could prove that South Slavs are natives of the Balkans. I haplogroup was actually one during the Ice Age, but when the glacier melted, I haplogroup had split into I2 which remained in the Balkans and I1 which migrated to the north and settled in Scandinavia. R1a and R1b came later from Siberia. I2 and R1a mixed together in the Danube region forming proto-Slavic population. But R1a remained predominant among the East Slavs, and I2 remained predominant among the South Slavs. In the map we can also see that the Greeks and the Albanians came from North Africa.

Now, if the Balkans were empty and the Slavs migrated there in the 7th century, R1a haplogroup would have been predominant in the Balkans, but it isn't. Therefore, there was no such a huge migration, and the land was not empty but there was I2 haplogroup.

But I prefer linguistic proofs, and the word "mater" truly fascinates me. Imagine, a hostile group of Slavs comes into the Balkans in 7th century, conquers the land from the Romans, and then adopts the Roman word for their mother, like they didn't have the word of their own for their mother. It would be virtually impossible. You don't adopt a foreign word for your mother just like that, and especially not from your enemy. If you share the same word for your mother with some other people, then you must be very close to them.

There are many other words that are the same in South Slavic/Serbian and Latin. For example, in Serbian "home" is "dom", and in Latin it's "domus". It looks funny, like the Romans just added suffix "-us" to the Serbian word. The word "class", Latin "classis", looks like it comes from the Serbian word "klas" which means ear of wheat, in which all the grains are of the same class, therefore the meaning. Latin word "video" looks like it comes from Slavic "vid" - "sight". There was even a major Slavic pagan god called Vid. Would the Slavs ever adopt the word for their major god from the Romans? No way. Most likely Latin "video" comes from Slavic "vid". Which should prove that Slavs and Romans lived together when the Rome was founded and Latin language invented.

There are even whole sentences in Latin that sound Serbian. For example, I enjoyed watching this video clip about the phrase "Romans, go home!" from Monty Python's "Life of Brian". And when I heard how it was correctly said - "Romani, ite domum!", I fell from my chair laughing my ass off, because it sounded totally Serbian - "Romani, i'te domu!" (Where "i'te" would be short of "idite".)

https://youtu.be/UfH6gjxTTgE?t=601

In conclusion, my intuition tells me that Slavs and Romans were close from the very beginning of Rome, and that those Illyrians must have been Slavic.
One Christ. One Body of Christ. One Eucharist. One Church.

T Hunt

Ok ya, you are right about the eastern romans controlling the region, and maybe im thinking of a little farther north in eastern germany when I talk about regions being empty. Alot of the former german regions were emptied by the migrations, like poland and hungry, and slavs did move into those areas. The poles are definitely slavic.

Goths were mostly germanics but the huns definitely were a mixed group and some of them settled in hungry. Actually NO thats not true, hungry is named that because of the later step people who moved there during the early medieval period who the europeans connected with the earlier huns.

Lets look at who was in the area before the romans, that would be the illyrians, who had connections to the dacians north and the thracians to the east. I think there also were some celts who moved into the area and even tho they are both indoeuropean they are seperate sup groups.

Now I have talked to a guy in romania and they seem quite proud about their historical connections to ancient rome, and I took some latin so I know mater is a latin word.

Let me put forth a different theory. We know that when the eastern romans fell the ottomans came in and did alot of changes to the area and is it possible that at that time the ottomans removed or enslaved the locals and replaced them with muslim slavs from elsewhere in the empire? Just spitballing here....

"Let's Go Brandon, I agree!"  -Biden

milos

Quote from: T Hunt on August 31, 2022, 04:11:05 PMOk ya, you are right about the eastern romans controlling the region, and maybe im thinking of a little farther north in eastern germany when I talk about regions being empty. Alot of the former german regions were emptied by the migrations, like poland and hungry, and slavs did move into those areas. The poles are definitely slavic.

Goths were mostly germanics but the huns definitely were a mixed group and some of them settled in hungry. Actually NO thats not true, hungry is named that because of the later step people who moved there during the early medieval period who the europeans connected with the earlier huns.

Lets look at who was in the area before the romans, that would be the illyrians, who had connections to the dacians north and the thracians to the east. I think there also were some celts who moved into the area and even tho they are both indoeuropean they are seperate sup groups.

Now I have talked to a guy in romania and they seem quite proud about their historical connections to ancient rome, and I took some latin so I know mater is a latin word.

Let me put forth a different theory. We know that when the eastern romans fell the ottomans came in and did alot of changes to the area and is it possible that at that time the ottomans removed or enslaved the locals and replaced them with muslim slavs from elsewhere in the empire? Just spitballing here....



In reality the things are more complex, because the Romans in the late stage of the Roman Empire were not of one ethnicity but of mixed racial and ethnic origins. Among those late Romans there were people from Italy, Greece, South Slavic lands, Armenia, from across the Mediterranean, etc, really a mix of various peoples with Roman citizenship. The same is with the Turkish Ottoman Empire, you needed to be a Muslim to become a Turkish citizen, but Turks were of mixed racial and ethnic origins - there were the original Turks, then the Greeks, the Serbians, the Albanians, the Armenians, the Arabians, etc, Turks were a mix of different peoples converted into Islam and carrying Turkish citizenship. So being a Roman or a Turk was a political category and not racial or ethnic.

We believe that even many Roman emperors were of Serbian origin, like Licinius, Constantine, Iustinianus. In Serbian Medieval writings Iustinianus is called by his Serbian name Upravda, and when he became the Emperor he just translated his Serbian name "Upravda" into Latin "Iustinianus". We in Serbia never translate foreign names into Serbian, so most likely he changed his Serbian name into Latin. There were two parties in Serbian lands, one calling for a Serbian national state, and the other supporting the Empire, that were in conflict. There were basically no "ethnic Romans" in the Balkans, but there were peoples like Greeks, Armenians, Serbians, who supported the Empire, and part of their peoples were against the Empire and rebelling at times.

Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, are called by different names, but most likely they were of the same background. Original Illyrians were one small tribe on the Adriatic coast the Romans encountered first with, and so they called all the people in the wide region Illyrians. We believe that "Thracians" is the Greek pronunciation of the name Rascians which is applied to the Serbs, central Medieval Serbian state was called Rascia. It is the same etymology as "Russia". Now, there were the Etruscans in north-west Italy who shared the same name, and they called themselves Rasenna and later Rasna, the same etymology as Rascia in the Balkans and Russia in the Eastern Europe. So, we believe the Etruscans were of Slavic origin, and they participated in the formation of the Latin language when the city of Rome was founded. But later on, the two languages, Slavic and Latin, evolved in two different directions. There is the Dinaric race in the west Balkans and north Italy which we believe the Illyrians belonged to, and that they were Slavic together with the Etruscans.

Romanian language is a mix of Slavic and Latin, they are probably descendants of Romanized Serbs during the Roman Empire. The official theory is that Slavs came in 7th century and slaughtered the Romans, but if Romanians are descendants of these Romans, how come Serbians and Romanians are best brothers in the Balkans, and in Romania there is a saying: "Romania only got two friends - Black Sea and Serbia." Serbians and Romanians are the only peoples in the Balkans who never went to war against each other, nor they ever will, I can't even think of such a possibility. I have met many Romanians on internet, both boys and girls, and some in real life, and I really feel like we are the same people, separated only by a different language. But by the official theory, we should have been worst enemies and not best friends. So something is illogical there.

Hungarians call themselves "Magyar", that is also how we call them in Serbia, and the name "Hungarian" came from foreigners who compared them to the Huns. But ethnically they are the same to the surrounding Slavic peoples and Austrians, they have just adopted the Magyar language, it was originally a small Asian tribe who conquered Pannonia and imposed their language.

There were no "Muslim Slavs" from somewhere else. When the Ottoman Turks arrived in the Balkans from Asia Minor, they encountered with the (Eastern) Roman Empire and with the Serbian Empire. As the Turks conquered the lands, they converted some Christians to Islam by force, and some willingly converted themselves into Islam in order to become Turkish citizens and gain privileges, therefore the modern day Muslim population in Albania, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia.
One Christ. One Body of Christ. One Eucharist. One Church.

milos

I was writing in this forum about Emperor Iustinianus, and You Tube suggested me this video for some reason lol. It has got CC in English, so if you are comfortable with reading the English translation from a video, there is a short story about Emperor Iustinianus, his city in the present-day south Serbia called Iustiniana Prima, and some facts about the ancient people in the Balkans.

One Christ. One Body of Christ. One Eucharist. One Church.