Yes, Marxism is a cancer and infects all aspects of life, including religion, but religion is only a tiny percent of the issue.
Education, politics, banking, gender, environment, military. The list is endless, destroying religion in many cases is where it starts, but it's all the points after, that complete the picture.
To view Marxism and the religious, is taking a very extreme myopic view of the disease known as Marxism.

So drop it! Everything, and nothing involves religion, depending on the view of the individual.
This happens in every thread that mentions religion, it detracts from the bigger issue, ending in total derailment.

If you all want to continue this in a religious context, then it can be moved one last time. After which, it will be locked.

Quote from: red_dirt on June 08, 2015, 04:04:06 AM
I mentioned Jesuits. I think it was in reference to Milo's steady positive references to the IRA, an organization that has for some time been on the US State Departments list of terrorist organizations, not a distinguished society it itself, that.

You mean this was my positive reference to the IRA?

Quote from: milos on June 05, 2015, 10:44:22 PM
I strongly support the Irish in their struggle, and I admire the Irish as one of the most brave and freedom-loving peoples on the Earth. But, I will never support terrorism of any kind and whatever the reason. And furthermore, I have reasons to believe that the IRA was organized by the British government, in order to mark the Irish people as terrorists, and undermine their legitimate fight for freedom.

Quote from: Solar on June 08, 2015, 06:39:20 AM
Yes, Marxism is a cancer and infects all aspects of life, including religion, but religion is only a tiny percent of the issue.
Education, politics, banking, gender, environment, military. The list is endless, destroying religion in many cases is where it starts, but it's all the points after, that complete the picture.
To view Marxism and the religious, is taking a very extreme myopic view of the disease known as Marxism.

So drop it! Everything, and nothing involves religion, depending on the view of the individual.
This happens in every thread that mentions religion, it detracts from the bigger issue, ending in total derailment.

If you all want to continue this in a religious context, then it can be moved one last time. After which, it will be locked.

It is not possible to talk about Marxism, and not to mention history and religion. In my country, Marxism meant breaking all ties with traditional values and Christianity. Here is an image of a Serbian communist shot Jesus in the forehead. I have a feeling that commie has shot himself when shooting Jesus.



https://www.facebook.com/ThisIsChristianSerbia/photos/a.779932302064351.1073741828.779518938772354/880033078720939/?type=1&theater

It provoked me to start this topic when I saw communists were attacking the American excellence here. While they claim that Americans should give up their excellence, and the American excellence is that evil force which ruins the modern world - I believe it's quite the opposite, and that most of the Americans have actually forgotten their excellence, and it is the problem which ruins the modern world. If I am right that the American excellence means freedom, personal liberty, justice, rule of law, free trade. I feel America should stand above other countries, and not wrestle in mud together with the others, as America does now. I feel America is meant to be a just mediator in world relationships, but not to get involved into them. When you support one side against another, it is not justice for all anymore. When you impose trade embargo on others, it is not free trade anymore. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote from: milos on June 09, 2015, 01:44:44 AM
You mean this was my positive reference to the IRA?

It is not possible to talk about Marxism, and not to mention history and religion. In my country, Marxism meant breaking all ties with traditional values and Christianity. Here is an image of a Serbian communist shot Jesus in the forehead. I have a feeling that commie has shot himself when shooting Jesus.



https://www.facebook.com/ThisIsChristianSerbia/photos/a.779932302064351.1073741828.779518938772354/880033078720939/?type=1&theater

It provoked me to start this topic when I saw communists were attacking the American excellence here. While they claim that Americans should give up their excellence, and the American excellence is that evil force which ruins the modern world - I believe it's quite the opposite, and that most of the Americans have actually forgotten their excellence, and it is the problem which ruins the modern world. If I am right that the American excellence means freedom, personal liberty, justice, rule of law, free trade. I feel America should stand above other countries, and not wrestle in mud together with the others, as America does now. I feel America is meant to be a just mediator in world relationships, but not to get involved into them. When you support one side against another, it is not justice for all anymore. When you impose trade embargo on others, it is not free trade anymore. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Your last paragraph sums up what Amercia has been and should be. I wish you could get that message to the current resident of the WH.

Quote from: milos on June 09, 2015, 01:44:44 AM
You mean this was my positive reference to the IRA?

It is not possible to talk about Marxism, and not to mention history and religion. In my country, Marxism meant breaking all ties with traditional values and Christianity. Here is an image of a Serbian communist shot Jesus in the forehead. I have a feeling that commie has shot himself when shooting Jesus.



https://www.facebook.com/ThisIsChristianSerbia/photos/a.779932302064351.1073741828.779518938772354/880033078720939/?type=1&theater

It provoked me to start this topic when I saw communists were attacking the American excellence here. While they claim that Americans should give up their excellence, and the American excellence is that evil force which ruins the modern world - I believe it's quite the opposite, and that most of the Americans have actually forgotten their excellence, and it is the problem which ruins the modern world. If I am right that the American excellence means freedom, personal liberty, justice, rule of law, free trade. I feel America should stand above other countries, and not wrestle in mud together with the others, as America does now. I feel America is meant to be a just mediator in world relationships, but not to get involved into them. When you support one side against another, it is not justice for all anymore. When you impose trade embargo on others, it is not free trade anymore. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

I understand and agree, the two are symbiotic, but I also understand human nature, and faith can bring out the animal in people.
It's why we have a religion forum. Every thread that wanders into religion, remains there, and never recovers, which is why I said it would be the last time I'd move this thread.

To invoke religion, is to set a death sentence to the original topic, this is inescapable, it's basic human nature, it's also a way to create enemies among members, something I will not tolerate.
So make your choice wisely. Either get back to your original intent, or be relegated to the religion forum.

Solar, it is plain that some in the thread feel the aspect of religion is central to the disputes we are seeing on the world stage. I can easily understand the moderator point of view of not wanting every political discussion turn into a religious cat fight, and I can certainly understand the best interests of the forum is not served by raising issues that in no way will ever be laid on the table cards face up, subject to open, public debate. That's not the way religion operates, nor often, politics.

What I would like to see us avoid is this mindset that terrorism and religion are not related. It has taken us years to get over that little obstacle of political correctness. You're the man. Could you open a thread in Religion  that would accommodate interests of all concerned?  You  may be the most objective one to do it.

Quote from: red_dirt on June 09, 2015, 06:47:21 AM
Solar, it is plain that some in the thread feel the aspect of religion is central to the disputes we are seeing on the world stage. I can easily understand the moderator point of view of not wanting every political discussion turn into a religious cat fight, and I can certainly understand the best interests of the forum is not served by raising issues that in no way will ever be laid on the table cards face up, subject to open, public debate. That's not the way religion operates, nor often, politics.

What I would like to see us avoid is this mindset that terrorism and religion are not related. It has taken us years to get over that little obstacle of political correctness. You're the man. Could you open a thread in Religion  that would accommodate interests of all concerned?  You  may be the most objective one to do it.

That's kind of the point. This thread was going along fine with some insightful views on history, until religion was invoked into the topic, which is always an instant death sentence for the original subject.
I want to keep this topic here, but if people insist on changing the objective of the OP, I'm forced to move it, as you pointed out, "To avoid the inevitable cat fight".

Thing is, if I let this thread slide, then I fail the members on protecting other topics from being derailed into a discussion on religion.
Once people see they have carteblanche on topics, the forum becomes a free for all, and people simply leave, angry, I might add.

One thing people can be assured of, is OP's generally keep within subject guidelines until it exhausts itself on it's own merits, and generally takes on a different aspect of the same issue.

See, had I simply moved this in the beginning, that would have been the end of it, but because I didn't, look where it wound up.
This what happens when majority decides.

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 09, 2015, 04:46:45 AM
Your last paragraph sums up what Amercia has been and should be. I wish you could get that message to the current resident of the WH.

Thank you for understanding me. You see, I am not hating America when I criticize it, I actually want American help and support. But not help and support by protecting one side, but help and support by protecting justice for all. And to be able to implement justice for all, you must hear all kinds of arguments from all sides, including history and religion.

And oops, I wrote "American excellence", when it's usually called "American exceptionalism", abut I assume it would mean the same.

Quote from: Solar on June 09, 2015, 05:51:12 AM
I understand and agree, the two are symbiotic, but I also understand human nature, and faith can bring out the animal in people.
It's why we have a religion forum. Every thread that wanders into religion, remains there, and never recovers, which is why I said it would be the last time I'd move this thread.

To invoke religion, is to set a death sentence to the original topic, this is inescapable, it's basic human nature, it's also a way to create enemies among members, something I will not tolerate.
So make your choice wisely. Either get back to your original intent, or be relegated to the religion forum.

Yes, that is why I have accepted Libertarian point of view, because that is the best way to talk to other people who disagree with you without hate.

Quote from: milos on June 09, 2015, 11:39:29 PM
Yes, that is why I have accepted Libertarian point of view, because that is the best way to talk to other people who disagree with you without hate.

Interesting, people, who signing this petition, are they libertarians, republican or liberals?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkgbHfbPk4E&feature=youtu.be

Quote from: kalash on June 10, 2015, 11:46:30 AM
Interesting, people, who signing this petition, are they libertarians, republican or liberals?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkgbHfbPk4E&feature=youtu.be

How do you sign a youtube petition?
I can't watch it, so do you have a link to the petition?

I have been reading up on the Ukraine, Milo, and am starting to understand the situation there a little better, but no thanks to you. That's not an attempt to discourage your input nor is it intended to denigrate your understanding or your position, even though I don't understand it very well.  I also readily concede to know next to nothing, in the event you should take offense.

You are talking to Americans, here, not English, Europeans, or Irish.  We traditionally put America's interests first, with something to spare. We see Russia, Ukraine, Europe (North, East, South, and West) The Mediterranean, the Balkans, the Middle East. It is only recently that our government and policy makers have begun to include top officials who admit to having global agendas. Some say that  is a sign of America's coming of age. Others say we ought to make the entrance, as needed, get the job done, and get out, as we have always done, not leave a bunch of cultural embassies and bases like so much of a Roman Empire.

Prior to the outspoken Tea Party, we sat around and listened to Clinton's and Bush's BS, as if we had no say in the matter.  We know Obama is a lemon and we know that his party represents a crisis in Democracy. What does not help us is sweeping generalizations from people we don't really even know where the heck they are coming from.

On this forum there are threads for politics and for religion, I'm sure your noticed.  We don't want anyone to get mad.

Quote from: red_dirt on June 10, 2015, 06:59:37 PM
I have been reading up on the Ukraine, Milo, and am starting to understand the situation there a little better, but no thanks to you. That's not an attempt to discourage your input nor is it intended to denigrate your understanding or your position, even though I don't understand it very well.  I also readily concede to know next to nothing, in the event you should take offense.

You are talking to Americans, here, not English, Europeans, or Irish.  We traditionally put America's interests first, with something to spare. We see Russia, Ukraine, Europe (North, East, South, and West) The Mediterranean, the Balkans, the Middle East. It is only recently that our government and policy makers have begun to include top officials who admit to having global agendas. Some say that  is a sign of America's coming of age. Others say we ought to make the entrance, as needed, get the job done, and get out, as we have always done, not leave a bunch of cultural embassies and bases like so much of a Roman Empire.

Prior to the outspoken Tea Party, we sat around and listened to Clinton's and Bush's BS, as if we had no say in the matter.  We know Obama is a lemon and we know that his party represents a crisis in Democracy. What does not help us is sweeping generalizations from people we don't really even know where the heck they are coming from.

On this forum there are threads for politics and for religion, I'm sure your noticed.  We don't want anyone to get mad.

Check this out, it might shed just a tiny bit of light on the subject.

Since the end of the Soviet Union, NATO has expanded to include the three Baltic nations -- Estonia, Latvia (pictured) and Lithuania -- and many former members of the Soviet Warsaw Pact alliance. Putin has complained that the alliance now reaches Russia's borders, and he's strongly objected to the prospect of Ukraine joining the alliance.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-10/europeans-blink-as-putin-puts-pressure-on-nato-polling-finds

Quote from: Solar on June 10, 2015, 08:01:51 PM
Check this out, it might shed just a tiny bit of light on the subject.

Since the end of the Soviet Union, NATO has expanded to include the three Baltic nations -- Estonia, Latvia (pictured) and Lithuania -- and many former members of the Soviet Warsaw Pact alliance. Putin has complained that the alliance now reaches Russia's borders, and he's strongly objected to the prospect of Ukraine joining the alliance.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-10/europeans-blink-as-putin-puts-pressure-on-nato-polling-finds

That's a good link, Solar. Thanks for finding it. The only thing I don't like is that when the papers have to illustrate the face of America, they post Obama's mug shot, like they did here. Disgusting. Counting down the months.

So, here is the deal. Ukrane is split. Eastern half speaks Russian. Western half speaks Ukraine.
East faces NATO. West faces Soviet Union. So, whose the friggin country? is it one nation or is it two? When the vote, do they all vote? Is Poroshenko (or however the h you say it) in charge of all of it? I get the part that the rebels are the communist half, the east. Then, I also see this modern western look like in that trade conference web site we looked at here.

I am gradually getting the picture. Sorry to be so dense, but not exactly a high priority topic in my world (of Indians wanting their land back.  )

Here, I'll leave that link up. It's a good one.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-10/europeans-blink-as-putin-puts-pressure-on-nato-polling-finds

Bloomberg not my favorite Big Gulp, but when it comes to certain foreign affairs, he's tops. I just don't take to pols who somehow so conveniently find themselves followed by a commie. That goes for Dubya as well.  Nothing concrete, just a gut reaction.

Quote from: kalash on June 10, 2015, 11:46:30 AM
Interesting, people, who signing this petition, are they libertarians, republican or liberals?

Those people are obviously liberals and Obama supporters. I suppose Mark Dice was trying to expose they would sign anything for Obama. If he wore an Obama t-shirt, and was asking people to support American union with Russia, those same people would probably sign that, too.

Libertarians, on the other side, believe in personal responsibility and non-aggression, and they would surely think more before signing anything for anyone.

The problem with you communists is that you believe all Americans are liberals. And the problem with Americans is they believe all Russians are communists.

I am aware of what Vladimir Putin is doing, he is trying to establish new Russian patriotism basing it on the Soviet heritage and victory in WWII. While I understand his patriotic intentions are good, I must disagree with his methods. I mean, how could any Russian follow Lenin, who was the worst anti-Russian of all times? That is just insane. Why don't you just drop Lenin and bolshevism, and return to traditional Russia?

Quote from: red_dirt on June 10, 2015, 06:59:37 PM
I have been reading up on the Ukraine, Milo, and am starting to understand the situation there a little better, but no thanks to you. That's not an attempt to discourage your input nor is it intended to denigrate your understanding or your position, even though I don't understand it very well.  I also readily concede to know next to nothing, in the event you should take offense.

The situation in Ukraine is plain simple. You have ethnic Ukrainians in the north-west, and ethnic Russians in the south-east. Ukrainians are mostly pro-EU liberals, who want to end any Russian influence in Ukraine and join EU. Russians, on the other side, want more Russian influence in Ukraine, or to join Russia, and they protect all of the Soviet heritage in Ukraine, because they never wanted Soviet Union to break up in the first place. Regarding political and economic situation, there are those thugs called the oligarchs, who used breaking up of Soviet Union to get rich by connections with corrupted politicians. It is just the matter who will bribe those corrupted politicians and oligarchs more successfully, Russia or EU/NATO. And then you have a classic confrontation of power between Russia and NATO, who shall control the territory. And ordinary people suffer and get killed because of high politics, as it usually happens. My solution to the problem would be a neutral status of Ukraine between Russia and NATO.

Quote from: milos on June 11, 2015, 12:20:10 AM
Those people are obviously liberals and Obama supporters. I suppose Mark Dice was trying to expose they would sign anything for Obama. If he wore an Obama t-shirt, and was asking people to support American union with Russia, those same people would probably sign that, too.

Libertarians, on the other side, believe in personal responsibility and non-aggression, and they would surely think more before signing anything for anyone.

The problem with you communists is that you believe all Americans are liberals. And the problem with Americans is they believe all Russians are communists.

I am aware of what Vladimir Putin is doing, he is trying to establish new Russian patriotism basing it on the Soviet heritage and victory in WWII. While I understand his patriotic intentions are good, I must disagree with his methods. I mean, how could any Russian follow Lenin, who was the worst anti-Russian of all times? That is just insane. Why don't you just drop Lenin and bolshevism, and return to traditional Russia?

The situation in Ukraine is plain simple. You have ethnic Ukrainians in the north-west, and ethnic Russians in the south-east. Ukrainians are mostly pro-EU liberals, who want to end any Russian influence in Ukraine and join EU. Russians, on the other side, want more Russian influence in Ukraine, or to join Russia, and they protect all of the Soviet heritage in Ukraine, because they never wanted Soviet Union to break up in the first place. Regarding political and economic situation, there are those thugs called the oligarchs, who used breaking up of Soviet Union to get rich by connections with corrupted politicians. It is just the matter who will bribe those corrupted politicians and oligarchs more successfully, Russia or EU/NATO. And then you have a classic confrontation of power between Russia and NATO, who shall control the territory. And ordinary people suffer and get killed because of high politics, as it usually happens. My solution to the problem would be a neutral status of Ukraine between Russia and NATO.

In this country, Mexico once laid claim to Texas.  We fought them for it, and now it's part of the U.S. and the people of Texas are citizens of the U.S. and follow U.S. laws.
The U.S. wouldn't let Mexico come back in and try to reclaim Texas.

Quote from: Dori on June 11, 2015, 06:05:29 AM
In this country, Mexico once laid claim to Texas.  We fought them for it, and now it's part of the U.S. and the people of Texas are citizens of the U.S. and follow U.S. laws.
The U.S. wouldn't let Mexico come back in and try to reclaim Texas.

Excellent point, Dori!

And we actually gave a large chunk of Mexico back to them after the war.

Mexicans now wish we had not done that!!!