Quote from: redwhiteblue on March 15, 2013, 04:13:14 PM
Dismiss me as a student if you wish...

It's OK.  You are more than welcome to be a student.  You just have no idea about economics.

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but make no mistake I'm not a youngster.  I am a former scientist.  I like math and I like the numbers to add up.  I am tired of the BS on both sides of the aisle.

Your experience is very small compared to the collective on this forum, just so you know.  By trade, I come from the software development field.  Do you think I need numbers to add up? (hint: yes)

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Furthermore I did not approach the issue of natgas from the tree hugging kum by yah singing point of view.  I do know as I consider running a business in my future career I must consider the huge swings in the cost of energy.  A lot of small businesses in my area failed during the last oil spike and many of them cited the cost of energy and their inability to pass the costs along to their customers.  That is the thesis behind my investment in Picken's firm in the first place.  As a math oriented person I would attempt to smooth the volatility by hedging but also by not being so dependant on the limited resource in the first place.

How about explaining how the free market has a hand in energy innovation.  Also, understand, it is the government who destroys innovation.

Wow...this discussion degenerated quickly.  And to think you people thought I was a troll.  Hold on to your hate and your delusions and see how far that gets you.  Continue to ignore basic facts like Keynes and Marx had two different theories and then keep asking yourselves why your opinions are being ignored. 

Moderator please just close my account...as I said many times...I did not join this forum to start trouble, but I can see now that the trouble and hate resides within this forum and I want no part of it.

Quote from: redwhiteblue on March 16, 2013, 02:45:44 PM
Wow...this discussion degenerated quickly.  And to think you people thought I was a troll.  Hold on to your hate and your delusions and see how far that gets you.  Continue to ignore basic facts like Keynes and Marx had two different theories and then keep asking yourselves why your opinions are being ignored. 

Moderator please just close my account...as I said many times...I did not join this forum to start trouble, but I can see now that the trouble and hate resides within this forum and I want no part of it.

Wow, you come in here claiming you know it all, then when shown you know little on the subject want to cry foul and run away?
As a retired defense contractor in the field of energy, what I told you is based on decades of experience/facts.

But if you are unable to make a case for govt manipulation of the free mkt, it's understandable, no one can, not even Keynes.

You want your deleted, do it yourself, and don't let the door hit you in the ass, though I doubt it will, considering the speed you're running for the exit.

Quote from: taxed on March 16, 2013, 01:53:14 PM
you need to make the case that a new business, for example, doesn't create jobs, and could have started without some capital investment from someone else who earned that capital.

I was really hoping for an answer to this.

Quote from: redwhiteblue on March 16, 2013, 02:45:44 PM
Wow...this discussion degenerated quickly.  And to think you people thought I was a troll.  Hold on to your hate and your delusions and see how far that gets you.  Continue to ignore basic facts like Keynes and Marx had two different theories and then keep asking yourselves why your opinions are being ignored. 

Moderator please just close my account...as I said many times...I did not join this forum to start trouble, but I can see now that the trouble and hate resides within this forum and I want no part of it.

RWB - There is a difference between being challenged and attacked.  They are challenging you to prove your point.  I learned a long time ago you either put up or shut up. 

Toy 

Quote from: redwhiteblue on March 16, 2013, 02:45:44 PM
Wow...this discussion degenerated quickly.  And to think you people thought I was a troll.  Hold on to your hate and your delusions and see how far that gets you.  Continue to ignore basic facts like Keynes and Marx had two different theories and then keep asking yourselves why your opinions are being ignored. 

Unfortunately for you, we have experience.  You can only parrot your Marxist professors.

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Moderator please just close my account...as I said many times...I did not join this forum to start trouble, but I can see now that the trouble and hate resides within this forum and I want no part of it.

I didn't see any hate.  You just have no idea what you're talking about.  If you can't defend your assertions, this isn't the forum for you.  Just understand, no liberal can defend anti-capitalism, which you are solidly a follower of.

Free market capitalism is good.  People making lots and lots of money is good, not only for them, but everyone around them.  Poor people benefit from rich people.  The more rich people, the better.  The government has no place in interfering with business.  You are an enemy of this country through your attempts to spread anti-capitalist propaganda -- you just don't know it yet.  All of this is the antithesis of what you have been told to think by others who have no idea what they're talking about, because they bought into the BS of others who were told what to think.

When you learn to use your little brain, come on back.

Quote from: Solar on March 16, 2013, 03:04:08 PM
I was really hoping for an answer to this.

They never can.  It always comes down the their wealth envy, or flat out disdain for the producers.  Or, they think the business owner takes advantage of the worker, which is where they go into Marx territory.  They don't understand the business owner needs the employee, and vice versa, both brought together by supply and demand and competition.

Quote from: taxed on March 16, 2013, 03:22:42 PM
They never can.  It always comes down the their wealth envy, or flat out disdain for the producers.  Or, they think the business owner takes advantage of the worker, which is where they go into Marx territory.  They don't understand the business owner needs the employee, and vice versa, both brought together by supply and demand and competition.

It always puzzles me as to why some kid growing up in a Capitalist society would want to take a course in anti-capitalism.
If he is really serious about finance, he needs to learn both arenas, then he will discover that the economy isn't based on the Govt picking winners and losers.

Quote from: Solar on March 16, 2013, 03:29:28 PM
It always puzzles me as to why some kid growing up in a Capitalist society would want to take a course in anti-capitalism.
If he is really serious about finance, he needs to learn both arenas, then he will discover that the economy isn't based on the Govt picking winners and losers.

Absolutely.  Common sense destroys this Keynesian and Marxist crap. 

Quote from: taxed on March 16, 2013, 03:37:10 PM
Absolutely.  Common sense destroys this Keynesian and Marxist crap.

Exactly! Real world application proves govt interference in the mkt only does one thing, create bubbles resulting in the destruction of business.
Housing industry collapse is Keynesian theory exposed.

Quote from: Solar on March 16, 2013, 03:42:24 PM
Exactly! Real world application proves govt interference in the mkt only does one thing, create bubbles resulting in the destruction of business.
Housing industry collapse is Keynesian theory exposed.

Totally.  Then, the next talking point they put forth is "Well, what about employee safety?".  They don't understand the difference between safety regulations and government interference.  It's the difference between a referee calling a foul in a basketball game and a referee stealing the ball and launching 3-pointers.  That gray area where they have not been trained to understand the difference is where a lot of them fall short.  It should be illegal for a company to package rat poison and call it ice cream, etc.

Quote from: taxed on March 16, 2013, 03:47:38 PM
Totally.  Then, the next talking point they put forth is "Well, what about employee safety?".  They don't understand the difference between safety regulations and government interference.  It's the difference between a referee calling a foul in a basketball game and a referee stealing the ball and launching 3-pointers.  That gray area where they have not been trained to understand the difference is where a lot of them fall short.  It should be illegal for a company to package rat poison and call it ice cream, etc.

Yeah, they always see the employee as a victim being used, when in truth, it's a contract between to individuals agreeing on a wage for the employee in exchange for their skill they bring to the business.
Of course this is where they kill jobs for the entry level employee by raising minimum wage.
That's where Keynes theory runs interference of the free mkt.

Quote from: Solar on March 16, 2013, 04:24:36 PM
Yeah, they always see the employee as a victim being used,

Which is their whole foundation for the justification of unions.  It's like justifying building unicorn saddles a certain way because normal saddles cause unicorns a lot of discomfort.

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when in truth, it's a contract between to individuals agreeing on a wage for the employee in exchange for their skill they bring to the business.

I try and try to understand why this is so hard for them to get.  Employer needs labor, willing to pay money.  Employee needs money, willing to provide labor.  This very simple concept is so confusing for them.

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Of course this is where they kill jobs for the entry level employee by raising minimum wage.
That's where Keynes theory runs interference of the free mkt.

If the minimum wage was abolished, there would be an incredible boon to the economy.  Liberals are so incredibly gullible that they don't realize this is just a system for the unions.

It is interesting that a lib will show up here and attempt to begin a debate abour economic issues. After a few posts the lib position is debunked and then the poster reverts to the same old rhetoric.

Quote from: supsalemgr on March 17, 2013, 06:03:09 AM
It is interesting that a lib will show up here and attempt to begin a debate abour economic issues. After a few posts the lib position is debunked and then the poster reverts to the same old rhetoric.

Wash, rinse and repeat.
Though this one washed quickly and was hung out to dry in no time.

Funny isn't it,  expose their ignorance, ignorance they obtained in a so called place of higher learning, that their education was a sham and they'd been lied to.
Then have an emotional meltdown and blame us for their failure.
Stomp their feet, claim victim status, when all we threw at them were facts and stats, but to a lib that hasn't the ability to fight back because all they've been told was a lie, they see us as attacking them.

It's actually hilarious, because the only damage inflicted was emotional, and for a lib, that's like a stake through the heart to a vampire.
Maybe zombie would be a better example?