Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 06:23:08 AMWell my friend, it's possible that she simply didn't want to argue with you.

She had no argument.

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 06:23:08 AMOkay, so what did she do wrong in her job search exactly?

I thought I made that perfectly clear. She narrowed her search parameters to manipulate the data to produce the result she wanted to try to prove a point.

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 06:23:08 AMMaybe he thought it was a scam.  How did you discover this in the first place?

I explained to him how it works which I will detail for you below in response to your 4 questions.

I found it through a Google search. I found it because I knew I was about to lose my job and took it upon myself to explore my options.  I did not just sit by and wait for a bad situation to happen. I took proactive measures while I was in a good place.

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 08:57:02 AM
I will add to what I said to my red being your green.   In the end, it doesn't matter what my perceptions are.  It doesn't matter what my hopes, wishes or dreams are or what I think reality ought to be.  Reality simply just is. It is independent of one's feelings and emotions.   For one to be able to succeed one has to understand what reality actually is and how it actually does work. 

Kayne West is $53 million in debt.  Reality sucks, because he sucks.  (I know absolutely nothing about the guy, other than he's either made very bad investments, or someone loaned a lot of money to a talentless hack)

Quote
This is extremely interesting.   So, the reality of how the organizations of today works is like this.  What you're saying is there are no constraints to be followed and no rules as well except for bringing the organization more of a profit or cutting their losses.   If I'm or anyone else is to be successful in today's workplace then I need to understand this model of 2015.   

Wrong.

Quote
I've been understanding it through the prism of the Taylorian model of Scientific Management.   Part of his model is that you have vertical, distinct and different roles.   You have the managerial role and then the worker role.  The managers set the tasks to do and the workers simply do the tasks. 

Sounds like micromanagement of a TASK oriented system.   Usually leaves a bunch of frustrated employees.

Quote
The new models say that the roles are mixed and the workers and managers are supposed to look at the organization as a whole and find ways to enrich the organization as a whole.  Is this correct or am I way off base?   If I am correct, it is no wonder I had problems with the workplace.   Part of my issue is that I'm operating on an outdated model. 

the RIGHT employees will enrich the organization, the wrong employees will stifle productivity and profitability.

Quote
Here are my questions.  How do we establish what our boundaries and authorization levels are?   How does one know what he is allowed to do, what he is not allowed to do, what he is supposed to do and what is optional?  How does one establish this exactly?

a good manager will assess the strengths of each employee, and put them in places to maximize productivity -or- empower the more productive employees to train and "upgrade the skillset" of less capable employees, increasing the efficiency of the entire group.  Where do you get this, "How do we establish what our boundaries and authorization levels..." stuff from?  Is this a Russian work model, a UNION shop?  I work with a bunch of guys, some are great at administration crap, some are good installers, some are good troubleshooters, some couldn't get cleared to enter a bathroom, some have good customer service skills - but we all have the SAME job title.  Boundaries usually lead to dependencies and inefficiencies as people try to carve out a specific job and "protect" it.

I *want* my co-workers to be able to do my job, if for no other reason - when the fish are biting, I'd like to get a line in the water.  My goal is to leave my work in such a manner, it is intuitive, anyone can walk on a job of mine, and figure out quickly where, how & why things are the way they are.  When I have a complex site, I'll do a VISIO drawing with ALL the information they need to navigate the site (without me).  What I have in my head, gets documented on computer / paper, period.  It has never cost me a job, but I've seen plenty of the other guys who think they're not expendable get canned.  I've also heard some real idiots say, "I'd like to see them run this place without me!" - and been there to see it run BETTER without them, because now everyone is cross-trained.

Say you're workplace measures productivity by METRICS.  Either your manager can let you run with the workload - either you meet those metrics, or you don't - and the manager HELPS or sends help to improve your productivity, to meet those metrics.  In my world, I work for myself, selling my skills, experience & performance at $ per hour.  I do not push the envelope, and try to take advantage of their system, because that's counter-productive for both of us.  I will not work in adversarial conditions - If the personnel issues can't be resolved, I walk.
Not a pride thing, I want to leverage my talents and be productive, not waste time. 

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 06:29:29 AM
http://www.workadvance.org/

I looked at this.   

1.   What's the catch?  Is this a really good program?   You were able to get a job from it so I guess its not a scam.

No catch. This is a program backed by the state of Oklahoma and local business to retrain no/low income people for the transportation/manufacturing sector. The program consist of training provided by local schools and on the job training by local businesses. I chose not to go through the program but I was entertaining the option of going through their CNC program. I decided to go for my CCNA instead.

This is not the failure that is Job Corps. The students are sent to an actual school.

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 06:29:29 AM2.  Unless you told me about this, I would have never known about this.

You might if you were in a like position. I did not know about it either..... until I looked for it. All it took was a Google search.

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 06:29:29 AM3.  I wonder if they have something like this in my state.  I'm gonna dig around.

Let me know what you find.

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 06:29:29 AM4.  How much will we have to pay?

Nothing.

The state pays for tuition and books.

The student is paid an hourly wage while participating in the program.

The state assists in placement upon finishing the program as a free service.

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM
Kayne West is $53 million in debt.  Reality sucks, because he sucks.  (I know absolutely nothing about the guy, other than he's either made very bad investments, or someone loaned a lot of money to a talentless hack)

True!

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM

Wrong.

I see!   So, what is correct then?   As an Autistic/Asperger person I do not understand. 

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM

Sounds like micromanagement of a TASK oriented system.   Usually leaves a bunch of frustrated employees.

Why would this frustrate them?   I don't understand. 

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM

the RIGHT employees will enrich the organization, the wrong employees will stifle productivity and profitability.

This I do understand.   If Bobby can create widgets faster then Billy at a lower cost one would want Bobby.

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM

a good manager will assess the strengths of each employee, and put them in places to maximize productivity -or- empower the more productive employees to train and "upgrade the skillset" of less capable employees, increasing the efficiency of the entire group. 

I understand!

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM

Where do you get this, "How do we establish what our boundaries and authorization levels..." stuff from?  Is this a Russian work model, a UNION shop?

I don't understand your inquiry. I will explain where I'm coming from.   I'm told to take initiative.  What are my constraints to this.  Example:  Let's pretend I'm a janitor.   One constraint that is placed upon myself is that maybe I'm not supposed to go into a particular room and only special and qualified people are allowed in there.  If I see the spill in there then the constraint would say I can't take the initiative to clean it up.   

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM

I work with a bunch of guys, some are great at administration crap, some are good installers, some are good troubleshooters, some couldn't get cleared to enter a bathroom, some have good customer service skills - but we all have the SAME job title.  Boundaries usually lead to dependencies and inefficiencies as people try to carve out a specific job and "protect" it.
[/quotes]

I don't follow.  How do you guys have the same job title if you all do different jobs and are assigned different roles?

I *want* my co-workers to be able to do my job, if for no other reason - when the fish are biting, I'd like to get a line in the water. 

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM


My goal is to leave my work in such a manner, it is intuitive, anyone can walk on a job of mine, and figure out quickly where, how & why things are the way they are.  When I have a complex site, I'll do a VISIO drawing with ALL the information they need to navigate the site (without me).  What I have in my head, gets documented on computer / paper, period.  It has never cost me a job, but I've seen plenty of the other guys who think they're not expendable get canned.  I've also heard some real idiots say, "I'd like to see them run this place without me!" - and been there to see it run BETTER without them, because now everyone is cross-trained.

So, everyone knows other roles besides their own?  Fascinating!

Quote from: Hoofer on February 20, 2016, 01:55:51 PM


Say you're workplace measures productivity by METRICS.  Either your manager can let you run with the workload - either you meet those metrics, or you don't - and the manager HELPS or sends help to improve your productivity, to meet those metrics.  In my world, I work for myself, selling my skills, experience & performance at $ per hour.  I do not push the envelope, and try to take advantage of their system, because that's counter-productive for both of us.  I will not work in adversarial conditions - If the personnel issues can't be resolved, I walk.
Not a pride thing, I want to leverage my talents and be productive, not waste time.

Are you talking about this?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_metric

Quote from: ZQuickSilverZ on February 20, 2016, 02:28:42 PM
No catch. This is a program backed by the state of Oklahoma and local business to retrain no/low income people for the transportation/manufacturing sector. The program consist of training provided by local schools and on the job training by local businesses. I chose not to go through the program but I was entertaining the option of going through their CNC program. I decided to go for my CCNA instead.

This is not the failure that is Job Corps. The students are sent to an actual school.
You might if you were in a like position. I did not know about it either..... until I looked for it. All it took was a Google search.
Let me know what you find.
Nothing.

The state pays for tuition and books.

The student is paid an hourly wage while participating in the program.

The state assists in placement upon finishing the program as a free service.

If voc rehab doesn't work out for me then I'll see if something like this is here. 

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 02:49:31 PMIf voc rehab doesn't work out for me then I'll see if something like this is here.

Can you define voc rehab? I have an idea but I want clarification.

Quote from: ZQuickSilverZ on February 20, 2016, 03:49:48 PM
Can you define voc rehab? I have an idea but I want clarification.

Vocational Rehabilitation for disabled people such as myself.  http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/vocational-rehabilitation-individuals-with-disabilities.html

My disability is aspergers. 

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/mental-health-aspergers-syndrome

Quote from: cubedemon on February 20, 2016, 02:44:04 PM
This I do understand.   If Bobby can create widgets faster then Billy at a lower cost one would want Bobby.

...and Bobby can train Billy, maybe both can work together for better results.

Quote
So, everyone knows other roles besides their own?  Fascinating!
Are you talking about this?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_metric

Roles overlap to different degrees, upward, downward and laterally.  the more experienced guys usually have 2-3 highly specialized skills, but can do almost anything.  The newer guys depend on the more experienced guys for on-the-job-training.  The work "area" is under everyone's responsibility, there is no area that "belongs" to any individual - in some cases, not even a desk.

That definition of a Metric is the basic idea, the standard gets "tweeked" from time to time, just to keep it realistic. 
It would take volumes to define how to works in day-to-day work.

I found this job while doing a search on Inceed for my local area.

How many long term unemployed people with no job skills or prospects do you guys think would take a job as a trainee and work their way up?

Electroplater
Trainee - $10.00 per hour
Limited Experience - $13.50 per hour
Experienced Class "A"  - $18 - $20 per hour

I took a job as an apprentice electrician when I was younger. I went to a school called Associate Builders and Contractors and my education was paid for by my employer. This was a school supported by local businesses as a low cost, high quality part of their apprenticeship program.
https://www.abc.org/

I started as an apprentice for 6 dollars an hour (the minimum wage was $5.15 at the time) and had to bear the cost of buying a bunch of expensive tools. What I got in return was on the job training and formal schooling to develop a decent paying marketable skill. How many long term unskilled people do you think would do that?

We have come to accept "I can't find a job" far too easily.

Quote from: ZQuickSilverZ on February 21, 2016, 04:16:04 AM
I found this job while doing a search on Inceed for my local area.

How many long term unemployed people with no job skills or prospects do you guys think would take a job as a trainee and work their way up?

Electroplater
Trainee - $10.00 per hour
Limited Experience - $13.50 per hour
Experienced Class "A"  - $18 - $20 per hour

I took a job as an apprentice electrician when I was younger. I went to a school called Associate Builders and Contractors and my education was paid for by my employer. This was a school supported by local businesses as a low cost, high quality part of their apprenticeship program.
https://www.abc.org/

I started as an apprentice for 6 dollars an hour (the minimum wage was $5.15 at the time) and had to bear the cost of buying a bunch of expensive tools. What I got in return was on the job training and formal schooling to develop a decent paying marketable skill. How many long term unskilled people do you think would do that?

We have come to accept "I can't find a job" far too easily.

Wow! Damn!  I didn't know these things even existed.  Apprenticeship programs.  That's what they're called.   If my time in Voc Rehab doesn't work then I will see if there is a program like this in my state.  There's got to be.   HVAC has peaked my interest a bit.   Maybe I will check it out.   

I would like to tell you guys something.   When I went to high school this is what we were told.   We were told if we didn't do well on the SATs we would not get into a good college.  If we didn't get into a good college we would have no future.   I had major problems with the SATs and during that time I wanted to put a bullet to my head.   

If I knew about apprenticeship programs such as this I would've said to myself that they were full of shit.  So, why did they present college as the only option there was when these programs clearly present that it is but only one option out others?  Why tell half truths?

Quote from: cubedemon on February 21, 2016, 07:53:39 AM
Wow! Damn!  I didn't know these things even existed.  Apprenticeship programs.  That's what they're called.   If my time in Voc Rehab doesn't work then I will see if there is a program like this in my state.  There's got to be.   HVAC has peaked my interest a bit.   Maybe I will check it out.   

I would like to tell you guys something.   When I went to high school this is what we were told.   We were told if we didn't do well on the SATs we would not get into a good college.  If we didn't get into a good college we would have no future.   I had major problems with the SATs and during that time I wanted to put a bullet to my head.   

If I knew about apprenticeship programs such as this I would've said to myself that they were full of shit.  So, why did they present college as the only option there was when these programs clearly present that it is but only one option out others?  Why tell half truths?

You apparently are another victim of the government school system. They try to convince folks that everyone needs to go to college. When most of us were entering the work place going to college was not the norm and there was no stigma to not going. Just look around as you are out and about . Notice all the service vehicles running around. I would suspect 90% of those folks don't have a college degree. However, they are providing valuable services to the community and making a good living doing it. I had colleague when I was working and we always talked about the guys driving pick-up trucks and they were who made our economy work.

http://iecgeorgia.org/index.php/trainingevents/apprenticeship

I found an apprenticeship program in my state for an electrician.  In my whole experience at high school and college I was never told about anything like this.  In fact, no was told.  No wonder I was all freaking confused.

Long time ago, I worked for an ABC contractor, it's the non-union version of IBEW.

Wages were better than union electricians, I had a 401K, and higher take home pay than my union counterparts.  Vacation was paid, Union guys had to pay into theirs, union dues...  Everytime they came around, pulled out their card, I'd pull out a pay stub, and settle it - I made more money than they did.

Here's the really GREAT part, everytime I got on a government type job, "Prevailing Wages" kicked in, and I got Journeyman's or Foreman's pay scale - at union rates, which put me more than $3.00 ABOVE union wages (adding up all the benefits).   My first year, ABC labor rate was $11 hr (based on my experience), but prevailing wage was $22.70 hr, with OT after 8hrs in a day.  I got on all the prevailing wage jobs, for two reasons:

a.  6'3", big and strong

b.  I could read Blueprints. 

Yup, I had taken a print reading class on a lark, a few years before, and it helped me get the job.  And, when they figured out I could calculate everyday stuff like "pipe fill", they made me Foreman on job after job, I was running crews after 6 months, and they had YEARS of experience.

What had really lead up to it, me and my best friend, would take these classes at the local Technical College, one night course per Semester or year, just for fun, all kinds of odd stuff.  One year we took a LP/HP Boiler class to get a license - both of us aced the class, walked into the city, and out with Stationary Engineer Licenses (he aced the test, I missed by a couple).  On a lark, my Friend applied for a job running the boilers at a big college, landed it, and stayed there 18-19 years...

Took classes in electrical wiring, computer programming, HVAC, refrigeration, DC controls, Blue Print reading, Cat-5 cabling, VAV control, so many over the years...  we just did it for fun, and usually scored top in the classes.  Probably one of the smarter things I did - kept going to school.  If we still lived in the same city, no doubt, we'd still be taking night classes together, and going out to the local greasy spoon for a 10pm breakfast.

Jim is the smartest man I know, trained as a mechanical engineer, he never stopped learning - just the curious type, always looking into something, mechanical, electrical, historical, firearms, construction, etc... his body is wearing out, but his mind is as sharp as a tack.

And, that is the BEST career advice I can give, don't stop going to school, it exercises the brain.  TV just wastes it.

Quote from: Hoofer on February 21, 2016, 01:04:34 PM
Long time ago, I worked for an ABC contractor, it's the non-union version of IBEW.

Wages were better than union electricians, I had a 401K, and higher take home pay than my union counterparts.  Vacation was paid, Union guys had to pay into theirs, union dues...  Everytime they came around, pulled out their card, I'd pull out a pay stub, and settle it - I made more money than they did.

Here's the really GREAT part, everytime I got on a government type job, "Prevailing Wages" kicked in, and I got Journeyman's or Foreman's pay scale - at union rates, which put me more than $3.00 ABOVE union wages (adding up all the benefits).   My first year, ABC labor rate was $11 hr (based on my experience), but prevailing wage was $22.70 hr, with OT after 8hrs in a day.  I got on all the prevailing wage jobs, for two reasons:

a.  6'3", big and strong

b.  I could read Blueprints. 

Yup, I had taken a print reading class on a lark, a few years before, and it helped me get the job.  And, when they figured out I could calculate everyday stuff like "pipe fill", they made me Foreman on job after job, I was running crews after 6 months, and they had YEARS of experience.

What had really lead up to it, me and my best friend, would take these classes at the local Technical College, one night course per Semester or year, just for fun, all kinds of odd stuff.  One year we took a LP/HP Boiler class to get a license - both of us aced the class, walked into the city, and out with Stationary Engineer Licenses (he aced the test, I missed by a couple).  On a lark, my Friend applied for a job running the boilers at a big college, landed it, and stayed there 18-19 years...

Took classes in electrical wiring, computer programming, HVAC, refrigeration, DC controls, Blue Print reading, Cat-5 cabling, VAV control, so many over the years...  we just did it for fun, and usually scored top in the classes.  Probably one of the smarter things I did - kept going to school.  If we still lived in the same city, no doubt, we'd still be taking night classes together, and going out to the local greasy spoon for a 10pm breakfast.

Jim is the smartest man I know, trained as a mechanical engineer, he never stopped learning - just the curious type, always looking into something, mechanical, electrical, historical, firearms, construction, etc... his body is wearing out, but his mind is as sharp as a tack.

And, that is the BEST career advice I can give, don't stop going to school, it exercises the brain.  TV just wastes it.

Quote from: cubedemon on February 21, 2016, 07:53:39 AMWow! Damn!  I didn't know these things even existed.  Apprenticeship programs.  That's what they're called.

I don't know if you are being serious or mocking me.