Dan, you wrote "If you tax someone upstream before the point of sale, don't you expect that cost will be passed on to consumers? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just and less costly administratively to just tax the product at the point of sale to the customer"?

Dan, I'm supposing you meant to write "before the point of FINAL sale"?

[No one can determine with certainty what transaction is that of the product's "final" sale but in general practice that's a sale or trade of products to purchasers that are not authorized to collect sales taxes on behalf of their governments' for goods or service products they sell or trade or the goods and/or the goods and service products are for the purchasers' or the purchasers' beneficiaries' non-commercial consumption or use for non-commercial purposes.
Although in theory further sales by such persons or entities are subject to sales taxes, in practice it is unfeasible to enforce such taxation and in practice revenue from such "casual" sales are seldom collected.
I'm personally aware of some states that do not recognize such transactions as the final sale of vehicles, boats and planes which must be registered for use.  When transferring the title of such goods, those jurisdictions continue collecting sales tax revenues for even those casual transactions.  I suppose that's the manner it's done in all sales tax states].

The sales tax states regulations that I've directly dealt with, and I suppose ALL general sales tax jurisdictions monitor ALL sales transactions throughout every link of commercial transaction chains within their jurisdictions; (they even monitor sales of products entering or leaving their jurisdictions).  VAT conducts such monitoring in manners similar to all other sales tax administrative methods.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on December 22, 2013, 01:44:39 PM
Solar, ... You are not aware that among generally practiced methods of sales tax administration, VAT is NOT LESS but is somewhat MORE advantageous to commercial entities?
Additionally unlike most if not all general sales tax methods, the explicitly stated sales tax items within all transaction links within commercial chains of transactions, (from the first to the final link), does not exceed the entire sales tax received by all VAT government jurisdictions; this is not true of any other general sales tax administrative method.

Within all income tax environments, seller's taxable incomes are reduced by the sales taxes that they pay and they are not taxed upon the any types of taxes they turn over to the Treasury Department as agents of the government.

VAT is among the many sales tax administration methods that makes provisions for sellers to waive taxes for commercial buyers that provide valid tax ID's.  But unlike other sales tax methods, (when as often happens in practice), purchasers' tax waiver ID's are not available at the times and points of sales transactions, commercial purchasers submit the paper trail and deduct the sales taxes they paid from the sales taxes they as sellers collected, and turn over only the differences between what the collected and paid as the revenue passed on to the Treasury Department.

That reduction of taxes and improvement of cash flow is what enables VAT to be commercial entities most advantageous of sales tax administration methods. ...
Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on December 25, 2013, 06:26:17 AM
Dan, you wrote "If you tax someone upstream before the point of sale, don't you expect that cost will be passed on to consumers? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just and less costly administratively to just tax the product at the point of sale to the customer"?

Dan, I'm supposing you meant to write "before the point of FINAL sale"?

[No one can determine with certainty what transaction is that of the product's "final" sale but in general practice that's a sale or trade of products to purchasers that are not authorized to collect sales taxes on behalf of their governments' for goods or service products they sell or trade or the goods and/or the goods and service products are for the purchasers' or the purchasers' beneficiaries' non-commercial consumption or use for non-commercial purposes.
Although in theory further sales by such persons or entities are subject to sales taxes, in practice it is unfeasible to enforce such taxation and in practice revenue from such "casual" sales are seldom collected.

That made absolutely no sense whatsoever!
Either you do not understand the concept, or you know absolutely nothing about how the US sales tax system works.
All Products are taxed at point of sale, because to not collect said taxes would fall upon the retailer to pay the tax to the govt.

QuoteI'm personally aware of some states that do not recognize such transactions as the final sale of vehicles, boats and planes which must be registered for use.  When transferring the title of such goods, those jurisdictions continue collecting sales tax revenues for even those casual transactions.  I suppose that's the manner it's done in all sales tax states].

The sales tax states regulations that I've directly dealt with, and I suppose ALL general sales tax jurisdictions monitor ALL sales transactions throughout every link of commercial transaction chains within their jurisdictions; (they even monitor sales of products entering or leaving their jurisdictions).  VAT conducts such monitoring in manners similar to all other sales tax administrative methods.

Bloated bureaucracy.

QuoteSolar, ... You are not aware that among generally practiced methods of sales tax administration, VAT is NOT LESS but is somewhat MORE advantageous to commercial entities?

Why was that a question?

QuoteAdditionally unlike most if not all general sales tax methods, the explicitly stated sales tax items within all transaction links within commercial chains of transactions, (from the first to the final link), does not exceed the entire sales tax received by all VAT government jurisdictions; this is not true of any other general sales tax administrative method.

Again. That made no sense at all! Reread it.

QuoteWithin all income tax environments, seller's taxable incomes are reduced by the sales taxes that they pay and they are not taxed upon the any types of taxes they turn over to the Treasury Department as agents of the government.

I never said they were.

QuoteVAT is among the many sales tax administration methods that makes provisions for sellers to waive taxes for commercial buyers that provide valid tax ID's.

Wrong!!! All entities are taxed at every phase of production, all the way to the end purchaser, it is up to every every individual to pay VAT, in the end, they are all allowed to ask for a refund from the govt, but they all must pay VAT as they go.

QuoteBut unlike other sales tax methods, (when as often happens in practice), purchasers' tax waiver ID's are not available at the times and points of sales transactions, commercial purchasers submit the paper trail and deduct the sales taxes they paid from the sales taxes they as sellers collected, and turn over only the differences between what the collected and paid as the revenue passed on to the Treasury Department.

That reduction of taxes and improvement of cash flow is what enables VAT to be commercial entities most advantageous of sales tax administration methods. ...

This is where you're wrong, VAT averages nearly 30%, while State sales tax runs from no percent to 12% depending on State.

Quote from: Supposn on December 25, 2013, 06:26:17 AM
Dan, you wrote "If you tax someone upstream before the point of sale, don't you expect that cost will be passed on to consumers? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just and less costly administratively to just tax the product at the point of sale to the customer"?

Dan, I'm supposing you meant to write "before the point of FINAL sale"?

[No one can determine with certainty what transaction is that of the product's "final" sale but in general practice that's a sale or trade of products to purchasers that are not authorized to collect sales taxes on behalf of their governments' for goods or service products they sell or trade or the goods and/or the goods and service products are for the purchasers' or the purchasers' beneficiaries' non-commercial consumption or use for non-commercial purposes.
Although in theory further sales by such persons or entities are subject to sales taxes, in practice it is unfeasible to enforce such taxation and in practice revenue from such "casual" sales are seldom collected.
I'm personally aware of some states that do not recognize such transactions as the final sale of vehicles, boats and planes which must be registered for use.  When transferring the title of such goods, those jurisdictions continue collecting sales tax revenues for even those casual transactions.  I suppose that's the manner it's done in all sales tax states].

The sales tax states regulations that I've directly dealt with, and I suppose ALL general sales tax jurisdictions monitor ALL sales transactions throughout every link of commercial transaction chains within their jurisdictions; (they even monitor sales of products entering or leaving their jurisdictions).  VAT conducts such monitoring in manners similar to all other sales tax administrative methods.

Respectfully, Supposn

You make no sense whatsoever! If you believe a sales tax is the way to go I might agree with you. It only makes sense that those who have more will spend more and, therefore, will pay more taxes. So be it, as it is the consumer's choice as to how much tax they are willing to pay. You have been going on for over a month now on this VAT tax. That system hides how much tax is being levied. Having exposed yourself as a pure lib, please drop this thread and go onto something else.

Quote from: Supposn on December 25, 2013, 06:26:17 AM
Dan, you wrote "If you tax someone upstream before the point of sale, don't you expect that cost will be passed on to consumers? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just and less costly administratively to just tax the product at the point of sale to the customer"?

Dan, I'm supposing you meant to write "before the point of FINAL sale"?

[No one can determine with certainty what transaction is that of the product's "final" sale but in general practice that's a sale or trade of products to purchasers that are not authorized to collect sales taxes on behalf of their governments' for goods or service products they sell or trade or the goods and/or the goods and service products are for the purchasers' or the purchasers' beneficiaries' non-commercial consumption or use for non-commercial purposes.
Although in theory further sales by such persons or entities are subject to sales taxes, in practice it is unfeasible to enforce such taxation and in practice revenue from such "casual" sales are seldom collected.
I'm personally aware of some states that do not recognize such transactions as the final sale of vehicles, boats and planes which must be registered for use.  When transferring the title of such goods, those jurisdictions continue collecting sales tax revenues for even those casual transactions.  I suppose that's the manner it's done in all sales tax states].

The sales tax states regulations that I've directly dealt with, and I suppose ALL general sales tax jurisdictions monitor ALL sales transactions throughout every link of commercial transaction chains within their jurisdictions; (they even monitor sales of products entering or leaving their jurisdictions).  VAT conducts such monitoring in manners similar to all other sales tax administrative methods.

Respectfully, Supposn

The final sale is the sale to a retail customer. Any other tax is just a hidden tax to the consumer that is part of the price charged. I would rather have transparency and avoid the inefficiency of having upstream taxes passed on this way.

Quote from: Solar on December 25, 2013, 06:54:11 AM
That made absolutely no sense whatsoever!
Either you do not understand the concept, or you know absolutely nothing about how the US sales tax system works.
All Products are taxed at point of sale, because to not collect said taxes would fall upon the retailer to pay the tax to the govt. ... Bloated bureaucracy. ...

Solar, I'm intermently aware of the sales tax regulations within the states of NY and NJ for both intermediate and final sales of goods and service products.

Both states monitor ALL sales throughout the entire commercial chains from the first through the last sales transaction link within those states' jurisdictions.  The first and/or last sales transaction links of many commercial chains are the sales of products entering and/or exiting the sales taxing governments' jurisdictions. Governments' generally waive sales taxes upon goods or services that are exported from their jurisdiction.

Unless sales of products are entirely monitored (even to their entering or exiting the sales taxing governments' jurisdictions), it is unfeasible to properly enforce the governments' collection of sales tax revenues.  If governments fail to monitor documentation trails of products leading to the retailer, and many retail sales are unrecorded, that government will be losing significant portions of what should be their sales tax revenues.
This is the case for almost ALL, (if not all) governments' general sales taxes, (i.e. both VAT and other methods of sales tax administrations) monitor all sales transaction links of the commercial chains within their jurisdictions.

Are you contending almost ALL, (if not all) governments' general sales taxes, (i.e. both VAT and other methods of sales tax administrations) are operating in an inferior manner?  What government's existing general sales tax method earns your stamp of approval?

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on December 26, 2013, 05:42:19 AM
Solar, I'm intermently aware of the sales tax regulations within the states of NY and NJ for both intermediate and final sales of goods and service products.

Both states monitor ALL sales throughout the entire commercial chains from the first through the last sales transaction link within those states' jurisdictions.  The first and/or last sales transaction links of many commercial chains are the sales of products entering and/or exiting the sales taxing governments' jurisdictions. Governments' generally waive sales taxes upon goods or services that are exported from their jurisdiction.

Unless sales of products are entirely monitored (even to their entering or exiting the sales taxing governments' jurisdictions), it is unfeasible to properly enforce the governments' collection of sales tax revenues.  If governments fail to monitor documentation trails of products leading to the retailer, and many retail sales are unrecorded, that government will be losing significant portions of what should be their sales tax revenues.
This is the case for almost ALL, (if not all) governments' general sales taxes, (i.e. both VAT and other methods of sales tax administrations) monitor all sales transaction links of the commercial chains within their jurisdictions.

Are you contending almost ALL, (if not all) governments' general sales taxes, (i.e. both VAT and other methods of sales tax administrations) are operating in an inferior manner?  What government's existing general sales tax method earns your stamp of approval?

Respectfully, Supposn

Lets go with a simple sales tax at the point of sale to the retail customer as we see levied at the state and local levels. Just add on an additional tax for the federal government that makes it revenue neutral to drop federal income tax and we can call it a day.

This isn't a difficult concept. Not sure if your ability to articulate your position is really limited or if you just enjoy making things as muddled as possible. Lol.

Quote from: Supposn on December 26, 2013, 05:42:19 AM
Solar, I'm intermently aware of the sales tax regulations within the states of NY and NJ for both intermediate and final sales of goods and service products.

Stop using language you are not familiar with, or fail to understand it's context,
This is why, and I assume done on purpose so as to obfuscate your point and hide the fact that you know nothing on the subject!
So knock it off, and speak like a normal person, no one talks that way in real life, not even so called academics, you're not fooling anyone!!!

As to your point, no you're not aware of anything!

QuoteBoth states monitor ALL sales throughout the entire commercial chains from the first through the last sales transaction link within those states' jurisdictions.  The first and/or last sales transaction links of many commercial chains are the sales of products entering and/or exiting the sales taxing governments' jurisdictions. Governments' generally waive sales taxes upon goods or services that are exported from their jurisdiction.

Wrong again, the state does not monitor any point of sale until the final sale, end of story!!!

Quote
Unless sales of products are entirely monitored (even to their entering or exiting the sales taxing governments' jurisdictions), it is unfeasible to properly enforce the governments' collection of sales tax revenues.  If governments fail to monitor documentation trails of products leading to the retailer, and many retail sales are unrecorded, that government will be losing significant portions of what should be their sales tax revenues.
This is the case for almost ALL, (if not all) governments' general sales taxes, (i.e. both VAT and other methods of sales tax administrations) monitor all sales transaction links of the commercial chains within their jurisdictions.

GOOD!!!!!
Both State and Fed waste tremendous amounts of tax revenue, allowing them the ability to enter into the individuals process of manufacture and tax accordingly, as to a govt bureaucrat, is beyond insane, you want to allow govt to dictate the price of the product, as well as milk every last cent of profit away form the product, leaving only operating costs for the employer.
Yes, you're advocating for bigger govt, neglecting the fact that the NSA, IRS and the power they wield, would certainly destroy nearly all small business, corporations on the other hand wouldn't mind a Fed employee on staff maintaining compliance, in turn expanding crony capitalism leading to socialism and inevitably communism.

QuoteAre you contending almost ALL, (if not all) governments' general sales taxes, (i.e. both VAT and other methods of sales tax administrations) are operating in an inferior manner?  What government's existing general sales tax method earns your stamp of approval?

No, I contend you are an advocate for communism as an end means!

There is nothing wrong with paying a protection fee to the govt for the right to do business in a free and protected arena.
What I do have a problem with, is when the protector becomes the very entity they were charged with fighting.

Once you allow govt permission to enter small business, you've allowed the snake into the hen house, there will be no production, because the snake will know just how much to steal without killing off the host.

SupSaleMgr, I presented the advantages of VAT over every other administrating method for a general sales tax.  Unlike most if not all other sales tax methods, a final purchaser of any item in any form ALWAYS pay the exact total amount of VAT that was received as VAT revenue by all governments' that ever had any VAT jurisdiction over that sales item in any form; (i.e. .total VAT revenues of ALL governments ALWAYS EXACTLY EQUALS the total VAT paid by all final purchasers.

In practice I'm aware of no other general sales tax method that actually accomplishes that.  There is no general sales tax method that is more transparent than VAT.

In practice I'm aware of no other sales tax method that's more friendly to commercial enterprises or has less tax net evasion of tax revenue (after inclusion of enforcement costs).  I conclude that the only logical reason for anyone choosing a less superior method of a general sales tax administration is chauvinistic inability to accept other nations' have adopted the superior method before us.

Respectfully, Supposn


Quote  excerpted from Supposn posted within Reply #67 on: December 23, 2013, 06:12:50 PM: 
Solar, ... As to my  "nonsense about VAT", [i.e. VAT is among the many sales tax administration methods that makes provisions for sellers to waive taxes for commercial buyers that provide valid tax ID's, Solar wrote it's  "pure bull shit ..." but he offers no explanations to support his contentions.

Respectfully, Supposn

QuoteSupposn link=topic=13317.msg165146#msg165146 date=1388071822]
SupSaleMgr, I presented the advantages of VAT over every other administrating method for a general sales tax.  Unlike most if not all other sales tax methods, a final purchaser of any item in any form ALWAYS pay the exact total amount of VAT that was received as VAT revenue by all governments' that ever had any VAT jurisdiction over that sales item in any form; (i.e. .total VAT revenues of ALL governments ALWAYS EXACTLY EQUALS the total VAT paid by all final purchasers.

In practice I'm aware of no other general sales tax method that actually accomplishes that.  There is no general sales tax method that is more transparent than VAT.

And you see this control over free enterprise as a good thing?
Govt is not your friend, you really need to get this through your head, they are nothing more than a "Leech Host" syndrome.

QuoteQuote  excerpted from Supposn posted within Reply #67 on: December 23, 2013, 06:12:50 PM: 
Solar, ... As to my  "nonsense about VAT", [i.e. VAT is among the many sales tax administration methods that makes provisions for sellers to waive taxes for commercial buyers that provide valid tax ID's, Solar wrote it's  "pure bull shit ..." but he offers no explanations to support his contentions.

Respectfully, Supposn
[/quote]
You made the claim, so you back it up!!!

Quote from: Supposn on December 26, 2013, 07:30:22 AM
SupSaleMgr, I presented the advantages of VAT over every other administrating method for a general sales tax.  Unlike most if not all other sales tax methods, a final purchaser of any item in any form ALWAYS pay the exact total amount of VAT that was received as VAT revenue by all governments' that ever had any VAT jurisdiction over that sales item in any form; (i.e. .total VAT revenues of ALL governments ALWAYS EXACTLY EQUALS the total VAT paid by all final purchasers.

In practice I'm aware of no other general sales tax method that actually accomplishes that.  There is no general sales tax method that is more transparent than VAT.

In practice I'm aware of no other sales tax method that's more friendly to commercial enterprises or has less tax net evasion of tax revenue (after inclusion of enforcement costs).  I conclude that the only logical reason for anyone choosing a less superior method of a general sales tax administration is chauvinistic inability to accept other nations' have adopted the superior method before us.

Respectfully, Supposn


Quote  excerpted from Supposn posted within Reply #67 on: December 23, 2013, 06:12:50 PM: 
Solar, ... As to my  "nonsense about VAT", [i.e. VAT is among the many sales tax administration methods that makes provisions for sellers to waive taxes for commercial buyers that provide valid tax ID's, Solar wrote it's  "pure bull shit ..." but he offers no explanations to support his contentions.

Respectfully, Supposn

If responding to one of my posts, please use the quote function.

"There is no general sales tax method that is more transparent than VAT."

If you truly believe this you have no concept of what you are talking. The final price will certainly reflect all the taxes in the process, but they will not be detailed to the final consumer. That is not my definition of transparency. I bet you believe Obama when he states his administration is the most transparent in history of the presidency.

Quote from: supsalemgr on December 26, 2013, 07:46:42 AM
If responding to one of my posts, please use the quote function.

"There is no general sales tax method that is more transparent than VAT."

If you truly believe this you have no concept of what you are talking. The final price will certainly reflect all the taxes in the process, but they will not be detailed to the final consumer. That is not my definition of transparency. I bet you believe Obama when he states his administration is the most transparent in history of the presidency.

Absolutely correct! Even VAT states such in on it's description of contents page, that the end consumer is not aware of the full tax.
I believe our supposed economist supposn, is nothing more than an advocate for Marxism.
What he fails to understand is true economics, he only understands the leech side of the equation.

Quote from: Solar on December 26, 2013, 07:53:44 AM
Absolutely correct! Even VAT states such in on it's description of contents page, that the end consumer is not aware of the full tax.
I believe our supposed economist supposn, is nothing more than an advocate for Marxism.
What he fails to understand is true economics, he only understands the leech side of the equation.

He clearly has never encountered Austrian economics.

Quote from: TowardLiberty on December 26, 2013, 08:01:50 AM
He clearly has never encountered Austrian economics.

Absolutely! I'm not even sure he has a clue about economics in general, as to the fact he only advocates from the usurpers position for confiscation of wealth.

Quote from: Solar on December 25, 2013, 06:54:11 AM
... This is where you're wrong, VAT averages nearly 30%, while State sales tax runs from no percent to 12% depending on State.

Solar, tax rates are determined by the governments' legislators and they are not determined by the method of taxation.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Solar on December 26, 2013, 08:07:54 AM
Absolutely! I'm not even sure he has a clue about economics in general, as to the fact he only advocates from the usurpers position for confiscation of wealth.

I'd like to see Supposn do a brief sketch of his view of the economic relationships in the a market society.