Quote from: Solar on November 18, 2013, 07:01:10 AM
Fascinating! Thanks TL, I'd never considered the shield effect that Big Govt would glean under VAT.

You bet.

I think this one point is crucial to keep in mind, yet no one seems to be aware of it. But Rothbard was!

Quote from: TowardLiberty on November 18, 2013, 01:37:28 PM
You bet.

I think this one point is crucial to keep in mind, yet no one seems to be aware of it. But Rothbard was!

Wonder what Supposn has to say about that?

Quote from: Supposn on November 18, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
Bone Again, You have written a 10 line reply to evade the question of what, (if any) tax method for us to obtain sufficient tax revenue and has a reasonable expectation to ever be an enacted into federal law?

You're questioning my use of the word 'sufficient?   Provide your own alternative definition of the word.

Respectfully, Supposn

Alternative to what? Pay attention, son. YOU are the one that keeps throwing around the phrase "sufficient tax revenue," but despite a number of requests from me and others, you won't tell us what you think that means. It's your argument; you have to define the terms and tell us what your baseline is. How can I offer an alternative? Again, alternative to what?

Here's what I mean. If your idea of "sufficient tax revenue" means $10 trillion a year, we'd like to know that. We'll start a new section of the board called the "Loony Bin" and you'll be directed there automatically when you sign on. If your idea of "sufficient tax revenue" has no upper limit, or is set solely by the administration, Loony Bin. We'll come visit you from time to time.

Quote from: TboneAgain on November 19, 2013, 07:13:27 AM
Alternative to what? Pay attention, son. YOU are the one that keeps throwing around the phrase "sufficient tax revenue," but despite a number of requests from me and others, you won't tell us what you think that means. It's your argument; you have to define the terms and tell us what your baseline is. How can I offer an alternative? Again, alternative to what?

Here's what I mean. If your idea of "sufficient tax revenue" means $10 trillion a year, we'd like to know that. We'll start a new section of the board called the "Loony Bin" and you'll be directed there automatically when you sign on. If your idea of "sufficient tax revenue" has no upper limit, or is set solely by the administration, Loony Bin. We'll come visit you from time to time.

ONLY if he pays the way.   

Quote from: Solar on November 19, 2013, 06:37:05 AM
Wonder what Supposn has to say about that?

Probably not much.

He didn't have an answer to my argument about trade balances and economic growth!

Solar, the topic of this discussion is VAT, Value Added Tax; (i.e. VAT) is particularly a comparison to other sales tax methods and comparison to taxes upon other basis such as income taxes.
What were you trying to express and how does it relate to the topic when you wrote;

Quote from: Solar on November 18, 2013, 04:16:58 AM
How about one fourth of what they're stealing from us now?
You fail to understand that the Fed is living far beyond it's necessary means, as well as the behemoth the Founders warned it could become, in the process destroying Liberty. ... Are you not for Independence, can you not function without govt supporting you, are you not self sufficient?

???

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Regarding your post's second paragraph:

Quote from: Solar on November 18, 2013, 04:16:58 AM
            "I honestly do not understand your advocacy for bigger Govt., it boggles the mind.

VAT rather than prior sales task methods does not increase government's size or its concern with enterprises' affairs.  It is superior to other sales tax methods due to its lesser incidences and amounts of revenue losses and provides faster cash flow for enterprises.  Unlike other sales tax methods, it absolutely does not tax other sales tax paid within prior commercial transactions.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: TboneAgain on November 19, 2013, 07:13:27 AM
Alternative to what? Pay attention, son. YOU are the one that keeps throwing around the phrase "sufficient tax revenue," but despite a number of requests from me and others, you won't tell us what you think that means. It's your argument; you have to define the terms and tell us what your baseline is. How can I offer an alternative? Again, alternative to what?

Here's what I mean. If your idea of "sufficient tax revenue" means $10 trillion a year, we'd like to know that. We'll start a new section of the board called the "Loony Bin" and you'll be directed there automatically when you sign on. If your idea of "sufficient tax revenue" has no upper limit, or is set solely by the administration, Loony Bin. We'll come visit you from time to time.

Pop, before I'm considering your offer to adopt me.  Will you be at my 77th birthday party next month?  Should I ask your daughter-in-law to set another place?  I would not ask my step-father for any particular gift; it's the thought that counts.  Have you thought about it?  Would you want me to legally change my name?  I hope your great grand children will thrill you as much as they thrill me.

There are differences of opinions as to what's sufficient tax revenue.  For want of a better definition, "sufficient (federal)  tax revenue  would be whatever is required to fund  what U.S. Congresses and presidents have and will continue to determine to be our methods to accomplish the national goals they set; (i.e. if the congress should determine to how to fully fund whatever they determine the nation should do).  Due to our government checks and balances, no single branch of government can determine what's sufficient federal s tax revenue.  It is our elected legislators and presidents, (not you and I as individuals) that determine what's sufficient federal tax revenue.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on November 19, 2013, 05:17:00 PM
Pop, before I'm considering your offer to adopt me.  Will you be at my 77th birthday party next month?  Should I ask your daughter-in-law to set another place?  I would not ask my step-father for any particular gift; it's the thought that counts.  Have you thought about it?  Would you want me to legally change my name?  I hope your great grand children will thrill you as much as they thrill me.

There are differences of opinions as to what's sufficient tax revenue.  For want of a better definition, "sufficient (federal)  tax revenue  would be whatever is required to fund  what U.S. Congresses and presidents have and will continue to determine to be our methods to accomplish the national goals they set; (i.e. if the congress should determine to how to fully fund whatever they determine the nation should do).  Due to our government checks and balances, no single branch of government can determine what's sufficient federal s tax revenue.  It is our elected legislators and presidents, (not you and I as individuals) that determine what's sufficient federal tax revenue.

Respectfully, Supposn

You type really young. And that wasn't an offer. Hell, I'm too poor to adopt myself! 

Over the last five years, there's been this sort of lack in the budgeting department in DC, have you noticed that? And a couple years ago, the feds blew $1.3 trillion that didn't even exist. Oh, and the year before that too. It's eased up here lately, down to around $700 billion I understand.

I think we simply cannot allow a system where there's a largely hidden tax like a VAT that will be -- and you know it will -- adjusted to accommodate whatever the pols in DC feel like spending. We actually already have a similar problem called the Federal Reserve Bank, which thinks its cute to see how much money it can buy from itself. I don't think I'd care to compound the problem.

Someone somewhere need to begin being accountable for budgeting. In the absence of a rigid budget with the power of law, a VAT is suicide.

I replied in #20 to Solar that the topic of this discussion is VAT, Value Added Tax; (i.e. VAT) is particularly a comparison to other sales tax methods and comparison to taxes upon other basis such as income taxes.

TBone Again, legislators determine the nation's tax methods and rates.  They also determine the priorities and the amounts of their nation's budgeted expenditures.
Your post, (reply # 22) is "off topic": your post's worthy of their own topic of discussion.

I've never been anywhere where the sales tax wasn't explicitly stated on all bills, cash register receipts and generally known by all of communities' residents.   How did you arrive at the conclusion that any sales tax is a hidden tax?  The tax rate of VAT is no more hidden than any other sales tax.

Respectfully, Supposn

This was my reply in your other thread, but since this is the VAT thread, I'll post it here.

I can't believe just how brainwashed you are, that you either can't see it's socialist core, or you know it's their and refuse to recognize it for whatever reason. You claim Europe's VAT is not socialistic, yet ignore the fact that it was the labour party that put it into effect, a party based on Fabian Socialism. That's right, socialists started the VAT.

You claim China's version differs, yet ignore the fact that govt. has it fingers in every step of production and stealing it's cut, that is socialism at it's core.
What's wrong with letting business do what it does and simply tax the end product?
Same result, less bureaucracy.

Take building a house for example, every trade, every step of production is taxed, which means a tax report has to be generated adding to an overbearing bureaucracy, as well as a higher end cost, don't try and deny it.

You fail miserably at building a case for an increase in taxes, you also ignore the crux of the argument that you are an advocate for growing govt, at a time when we should be focusing on gutting the behemoth and taking the restraints of the free mkt. and end punishing the consumer with higher costs.

Solar, when compared VAT to any other sales tax method, VAT's not of any disadvantage and other methods are not of a single advantage to VAT.   It's illogical to be firmly opposed to VAT and be a proponent of other sales tax methods.

You are describing how China operates their economy rather than describing VAT.  Similasr to all other sales taxes, Vat is involved within every sales transaction link within the commercial chains os such links.  It is not involved within processes thast are not sales or trade ttransactions.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on November 21, 2013, 06:53:15 AM
Solar, when compared VAT to any other sales tax method, VAT's not of any disadvantage and other methods are not of a single advantage to VAT.   It's illogical to be firmly opposed to VAT and be a proponent of other sales tax methods.

You are describing how China operates their economy rather than describing VAT.  Similasr to all other sales taxes, Vat is involved within every sales transaction link within the commercial chains os such links.  It is not involved within processes thast are not sales or trade ttransactions.

Respectfully, Supposn

Read what you just wrote. You said absolutely nothing to refute my claim, simply a pure emotional rant.
How is complicating the tax process superior to our current method?

Quote from: Solar on November 21, 2013, 07:09:28 AM
Read what you just wrote. You said absolutely nothing to refute my claim, simply a pure emotional rant.
How is complicating the tax process superior to our current method?

Solar, how have you arrived to the conclusion that VAT is more complex than other sales tax methods? 

Similar to many other sales tax methods, sellers collect tax from all purchasers that do not provide a tax waiver ID number and along with the tax revenue they're required to pass along to the government, they are required to provide the documentation regarding their sales transactions.

This is all similar to VAT but unlike other sales tax methods, within a VAT system sellers reduce the money they pass on to the government by the amounts of any VATs they may have paid, (i.e. they receive faster reimbursement for those taxes paid).
This is the only difference between VAT and all prior sales tax methods but due to this difference, the sales taxes paid by final purchasers of any goods or services are no more or  no less than the entire tax revenues received by any and all governments due to the sales of those goods and service products (which is particularly compatible for transactions crossing tax jurisdiction borders). 

[In practice enterprises do not always have the forms and the required tax ID numbers in every vehicle and in the instances of every purchase or sales transaction occurring in the field.  Enterprises generally do not delay operations for such instances.  Normally under other sales tax methods these taxes are an unrecorded loss to the purchasing enterprise unless the purchaser can prevail upon the seller to not record the sale.  Unrecorded sales are government's losses of tax revenues and increase the proportion of burdens upon all other taxpayers].

Within a VAT system there's less inducements for intermediate transaction links of commerce chains to be unrecorded and there's less loss of tax revenues with no increased government intervention or enforcement expenditures.  Vat is not more complex but it is a superior method of sales tax administration.  You object to a superior method because it wasn't first adopted in the USA?

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on November 22, 2013, 10:41:11 PM
Solar, how have you arrived to the conclusion that VAT is more complex than other sales tax methods? 

Similar to many other sales tax methods, sellers collect tax from all purchasers that do not provide a tax waiver ID number and along with the tax revenue they're required to pass along to the government, they are required to provide the documentation regarding their sales transactions.

This is all similar to VAT but unlike other sales tax methods, within a VAT system sellers reduce the money they pass on to the government by the amounts of any VATs they may have paid, (i.e. they receive faster reimbursement for those taxes paid).
This is the only difference between VAT and all prior sales tax methods but due to this difference, the sales taxes paid by final purchasers of any goods or services are no more or  no less than the entire tax revenues received by any and all governments due to the sales of those goods and service products (which is particularly compatible for transactions crossing tax jurisdiction borders). 

[In practice enterprises do not always have the forms and the required tax ID numbers in every vehicle and in the instances of every purchase or sales transaction occurring in the field.  Enterprises generally do not delay operations for such instances.  Normally under other sales tax methods these taxes are an unrecorded loss to the purchasing enterprise unless the purchaser can prevail upon the seller to not record the sale.  Unrecorded sales are government's losses of tax revenues and increase the proportion of burdens upon all other taxpayers].

Within a VAT system there's less inducements for intermediate transaction links of commerce chains to be unrecorded and there's less loss of tax revenues with no increased government intervention or enforcement expenditures.  Vat is not more complex but it is a superior method of sales tax administration.  You object to a superior method because it wasn't first adopted in the USA?

Respectfully, Supposn

Sorry, but I feel like I'm talking to a college professor that's never been in business, only read about it in books.

I have been in business all my life, I can tell you the ins and outs in my sleep, I can also tell you, aside from dealing with the govt, it's a breeze, it's the added paper work by the govt that adds accumulative days to the job.

Please, tell me professor, just how is your so called "Value Added Tax" (note the word "ADDED" in there) going to make my life easier as a business owner easier, when the govt just added more steps to my keeping of records and assessments?

And one one other point, you claimed I get my money back faster?

I never paid any out in the first place, that's for the end buyer.

So please explain how adding hours to my job, one that will most likely force me to hire someone to deal with the paperwork, going to benefit me, or my piers?
Please explain that.

Quote from: Solar on November 23, 2013, 05:43:14 AM
Sorry, but I feel like I'm talking to a college professor that's never been in business, only read about it in books.

I have been in business all my life, I can tell you the ins and outs in my sleep, I can also tell you, aside from dealing with the govt, it's a breeze, it's the added paper work by the govt that adds accumulative days to the job.

Please, tell me professor, just how is your so called "Value Added Tax" (note the word "ADDED" in there) going to make my life easier as a business owner easier, when the govt just added more steps to my keeping of records and assessments?

And one one other point, you claimed I get my money back faster?

I never paid any out in the first place, that's for the end buyer.

So please explain how adding hours to my job, one that will most likely force me to hire someone to deal with the paperwork, going to benefit me, or my piers?
Please explain that.

Solar, everything purchased within a state that levies a sales tax, has that tax imbedded within the price of those goods and service products within all links of commercial transaction chains.  Within all other than VAT methods of sales tax administration, the purchaser of the final transaction link pays taxes upon taxes within any levied within sales transactions where the sales tax ID number was not evoked).  Such transactions are not uncommon). Due to such transactions, the sales tax stated within the final link of a sales transaction chain is less than the entire governments' revenues paid by the final purchaser.  VAT is the only method of sales tax administration where this does not occur.

Other than the additional paper work submitted by an enterprise for any purchases they made without evoking their sales tax ID to obtain a waiver of sales tax, there is no additional paper work burden upon any enterprise; (i.e. enterprises additional VAT paper work is to recover tax expenditure which are unrecoverable within other than VAT's method of sales tax administration).   

This characteristic is particularly advantageous for transaction crossing jurisdiction boundaries with differing sales taxes or no sales taxes.  Among the disadvantage of USA producers is that their products must fully contribute to USA's federal and state jurisdictions when sold within our domestic market and additionally must fully contribute to VAT nations' tax revenues when sold to those nations.  USA's states can and do waive taxes upon exported products but because all taxes paid prior to the export transaction's cannot be identified, they cannot be waived.
VAT nations' and their lesser governments' can and do identify and waive their export products' entire VAT taxes.
I would be surprised if you were not knowledgeable of your own enterprises but I would also be surprised if you were to claim your enterprises' models are entirely perfect fits as descriptive models for all other enterprises. 

Respectfully, Supposn