Quote from: Solar on April 19, 2012, 11:49:02 AM

\Allow me to give you an example of interfering with trade.
You have a lemonade stand, you sell your product at a fair price, your customers return because you're not only fair, but make a quality product.
Now comes regulations by the gov. I want you to read through this article and observe a common theme, that theme being the gov playing favorites in the free mkt.
Which is exactly what your tax scheme does, it plays favorite towards exporters, while penalizing importers.
That is not how a FREE mkt works, you are not proposing a level playing field.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/

Solar, my understanding of the "most favored nation", (i.e. "MFN") ¸ clause common within many international trade agreements is they agree to treat each OTHER in an equal fashion, (i.e. without favor or discrimination).  Dependent upon how the clause is defined, the clause may mean that a nation could favor their own to the disadvantage of all other nations.  I'm a proponent of that version of MFN that WE should apply to both ourselves and the nation's we purchase from.

If as you believe, the U.S. median wage must continue to decrease while the economies of other nations are overtaking us, our national demise is assured. 
Your evaluation of the IC trade proposal is incorrect.  It would work and work well.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on April 20, 2012, 02:26:24 PM
Solar, my understanding of the "most favored nation", (i.e. "MFN") ¸ clause common within many international trade agreements is they agree to treat each OTHER in an equal fashion, (i.e. without favor or discrimination).  Dependent upon how the clause is defined, the clause may mean that a nation could favor their own to the disadvantage of all other nations.  I'm a proponent of that version of MFN that WE should apply to both ourselves and the nation's we purchase from.

If as you believe, the U.S. median wage must continue to decrease while the economies of other nations are overtaking us, our national demise is assured. 
Your evaluation of the IC trade proposal is incorrect.  It would work and work well.

Respectfully, Supposn

I guess if you can't actually respond to the crux of my post, then this conversation is over.
I'm very tired of your evasive tactics, either answer my points, or move on.

Here it is again, just in case you missed it.

Taxed touched on it a bit, allow me to expand.
I ask your origin of birth, because it would help me to understand where your basis of ideas are coming from.
No born and raised American would propose your ideas towards a free mkt without understanding the consequences first.
For example, being a capitalist society as we are, we have a different form of etiquette, obviously something you don't seem to understand.
You entered our home and posted links that potentially conflict with our business model.

Think of it this way, Sears runs an ad in your town and spends thousands of dollars to bring in customers, and what do you do, you walk in and start handing out fliers to your store advertising the same product.

We are a business and you did exactly that, you walked in and advertised your wares, this is known as very rude in American culture.

For the same reason what you propose goes against the very core of our beliefs toward free trade, the less gov interference, the better.
Which is why I gave you the Lemonade analogy, in hopes that you might get a better understanding of the effects of to much gov intervention on Private business.

I've not been trying to ridicule you, I've been trying to understand you.
We just have different rules of social behavior in the U.S. when it comes to business.
We are raised to believe gov is not the answer, they are the problem, I have to assume you were raised in an opposite manner.

WalkTall, if you're unable to fault the message, fault the messenger?

I'm aware of the Import Certificate concept being introduced into the U.S. by USA citizens. I'm unaware of any other claim of origin.  The IC concept maybe a purely USA idea.
It's not pure free trade but its certainly pure free competitive enterprise.   It grants no discretion of policy to any entity including our federal government.
      
You are aware the democracy practiced in New England villages was also practiced among the Iroquois Indian nation before the white men came to our shores?  There were democratic cities in Greece prior to the birth of Christ.

Some foreign ideas are worthy of consideration.  We mapped out our nation using trigonometry.  We might not have been able to travel in space without calculus.  Our history's' are series of achievements due to people standing upon the shoulders of others' prior accomplishments.  If CPF members should object to foreign ideas, we'd be objecting to a great many things,

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on April 20, 2012, 10:01:50 PM
WalkTall, if you're unable to fault the message, fault the messenger?

I'm aware of the Import Certificate concept being introduced into the U.S. by USA citizens. I'm unaware of any other claim of origin.  The IC concept maybe a purely USA idea.
It's not pure free trade but its certainly pure free competitive enterprise.   It grants no discretion of policy to any entity including our federal government.
      
You are aware the democracy practiced in New England villages was also practiced among the Iroquois Indian nation before the white men came to our shores?  There were democratic cities in Greece prior to the birth of Christ.

Some foreign ideas are worthy of consideration.  We mapped out our nation using trigonometry.  We might not have been able to travel in space without calculus.  Our history's' are series of achievements due to people standing upon the shoulders of others' prior accomplishments.  If CPF members should object to foreign ideas, we'd be objecting to a great many things,

Respectfully, Supposn

There isn't a lot to learn from other countries, except for their history of how not to end up like them.  We have the best health care system, best military, best economic system, and the smartest and most driven people in the world.  Hussein need to get out of office before we are just a mediocre, regular country.

Quote from: Supposn on April 20, 2012, 10:01:50 PM

WalkTall, if you're unable to fault the message, fault the messenger?

Respectfully, Supposn

I find your message is full of Bull Shit!  A tax is a tax no matter how you colored it.  But that just my way of thinking.  At my age I have seen snake oil sold more than one way.  The government need to live within a budget, like people at home should also be doing.   

When business start having problems they start cutting cost.   When government start having problems they look for a new way of taxing.  Or should I say stealing!

walkstall,,,little w little t.  Unlike the government, I am just a little person.  But I pay cash for everything.   Do I need ¾ the thing I have?  NO  But it all payed for, can you or the government say the samething. 

This irritating, deliberately oblivious troll has been told more than once to STOP using that misspelled name, and hasn't. Set phasers to ridicule.

Quote from: Solar on April 16, 2012, 01:36:43 PMYou have yet to tell me what your country of origin is.

Solar, I've encountered this group, (ConservativePoliticalForum.Com), when googling "political forum online".

I became a member of this group but I'm no longer able to receive any notifications sent to the Email account I use for all of my online groups' account activity.

I was forced to change one of my E-mail addresses because Hotmail.Com no longer supports links between a person's multiple accounts.  I cannot log into one of my accounts and I've endeavored to change my Email address as I become aware of my membership to various groups.
I've logged into this group but I'm unable to discover how to change my Email address for receiving this group's notification messages of posts to the topics I follow.

I was born in the borough of the Bronx, within New York City.  I was educated in the USA and served 4 years in the USA Air Force, (1955-1959).  I now reside near Fort Lee, NJ that's the location of the NJ side of the George Washington Bridge across the Hudson River between NY City and NJ.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on August 14, 2013, 10:08:43 PM
Solar, I've encountered this group, (ConservativePoliticalForum.Com), when googling "political forum online".

I became a member of this group but I'm no longer able to receive any notifications sent to the Email account I use for all of my online groups' account activity.

I was forced to change one of my E-mail addresses because Hotmail.Com no longer supports links between a person's multiple accounts.  I cannot log into one of my accounts and I've endeavored to change my Email address as I become aware of my membership to various groups.
I've logged into this group but I'm unable to discover how to change my Email address for receiving this group's notification messages of posts to the topics I follow.

I was born in the borough of the Bronx, within New York City.  I was educated in the USA and served 4 years in the USA Air Force, (1955-1959).  I now reside near Fort Lee, NJ that's the location of the NJ side of the George Washington Bridge across the Hudson River between NY City and NJ.

Respectfully, Supposn

You'll need to update me as to your point, it's been months since this topic was broached.
I don't know if you're resurrecting the topic, or that you're having problems logging in?

Quote from: Supposn on April 10, 2012, 01:45:54 AM
West2004, trade deficits are nations' imports of goods and service products exceeding the values of their exports.  A trade deficit indicates the nation produced less than otherwise; (otherwise being if there had been no trade deficit).  Dollars are the chips that indicate who won or lost; at stake are jobs, the extent they're better paying jobs, and those lost jobs affect upon the median wage.

The problem is that the "nation" does not import or export, nor does it buy or sell.

These actions are done by private individuals. And every exchange of goods, in any direction, is balanced by a corresponding money payment.

So the adding up of goods in and money out, for the "national economy" is all rather meaningless.

For there is no 'national economic unit.' There is only individual private actors and firms and for them the exchange leaves no surplus or deficit.

Thus adding up these exchanges to find some net surplus or net deficit is rather meaningless. Such a metric is a hold over from the days of mercantilist thought.

David Hume more or less destroyed the idea of the necessity of trade policy with his 'specie-flow mechanism." Though that sort of a becomes a moot point in the days of unrestrained fiat money and central bank monetary expansion!

Import Certificates subsidize USA's exports.

In response to Supposn's quote,
"Exporters of U.S. goods would be ENTITLED to pay the federal fees to defray federal direct expenses due to this policy; they are NOT REQUIRED to do so".

Solar's response within message #50 was, "Made no sense at all".

Exporter's motivation would be to profit from the Import Certificates, (ICs) that would acquire (only if they requested their goods be assessed and agreed to pay the fees that defray entire direct federal expenditures due to this proposal.  That's an indirect but very effective subsidy of USA's exports.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: TowardLiberty on August 15, 2013, 08:03:32 AM
The problem is that the "nation" does not import or export, nor does it buy or sell.

These actions are done by private individuals. And every exchange of goods, in any direction, is balanced by a corresponding money payment. ...

Toward Liberty, I sit corrected because I don't stand while posting,

Referring to USA's trade deficit may imply our federal government's trade deficit while it is actually due to our aggregate population's behavior.
But that behavior is due to our aggregate population's response to the conditions resulting from our federal government's trade policies.

If we should change our trade policy, it changes the consequences of our policy and that would impel our population to behave differently.  I'm among those that support this species of an Import Certificate policy that is superior to our currently seeking a policy of pure free trade.

Respectfully, Supposn

In response to Supposn's writing:
"It is pure free competitive enterprise.  It is not pure free trade but it is market rather than government driven.
It grants government no policy determination; assessment of goods is a technical rather than a policy determination.  It is absolutely pure free   
competitive enterprise".


Solar's response within message #50 was,"No it is not! The taxes go directly to the Government, the Gov will assess the value, therefore it is Gov controlled"!

This policy grants no entity any policy discretion; (assessment of goods approximate values at USA ports and expressed in USA dollars would be dependent upon annually updated guide lines and is a technical rather than a policy determination).
Federal fees imposed upon USA exporters requesting that their goods be assessed are determined by annually updated regulations guided by the U.S. Congressional Budget Office.  The critical price is the open global market value of Import Certificates per dollar of assessed values of goods being imported into the USA.

The global values of ICs are completely determined by the free global market and are beyond manipulation of any entity.  It is that price that determines the additional price of imported goods within USA's domestic markets and the extent of ICs support of USA's exported goods.

I do not quibble with Solar describing the global values of ICs, (i.e. the additional costs of direct expenditures due to this proposal) as a tax upon USA purchasers and users of imported goods; that's so.  They are the cause of our trade deficit of goods detriment to our nation's GDP and median wage; they should pay for its remedy.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on August 15, 2013, 05:44:07 PM
In response to Supposn's writing:
"It is pure free competitive enterprise.  It is not pure free trade but it is market rather than government driven.
It grants government no policy determination; assessment of goods is a technical rather than a policy determination.  It is absolutely pure free   
competitive enterprise".


Solar's response within message #50 was,"No it is not! The taxes go directly to the Government, the Gov will assess the value, therefore it is Gov controlled"!

This policy grants no entity any policy discretion; (assessment of goods approximate values at USA ports and expressed in USA dollars would be dependent upon annually updated guide lines and is a technical rather than a policy determination).
Federal fees imposed upon USA exporters requesting that their goods be assessed are determined by annually updated regulations guided by the U.S. Congressional Budget Office.  The critical price is the open global market value of Import Certificates per dollar of assessed values of goods being imported into the USA.

The global values of ICs are completely determined by the free global market and are beyond manipulation of any entity.  It is that price that determines the additional price of imported goods within USA's domestic markets and the extent of ICs support of USA's exported goods.

I do not quibble with Solar describing the global values of ICs, (i.e. the additional costs of direct expenditures due to this proposal) as a tax upon USA purchasers and users of imported goods; that's so.  They are the cause of our trade deficit of goods detriment to our nation's GDP and median wage; they should pay for its remedy.

Respectfully, Supposn

And what makes you think other countries won't retaliate in kind?
Also, if I follow you correctly, your plan is nothing more than a carbon trading scheme.

In response to Supposn's writing: "The federal government is granted no right to favor or discriminate between foreign nations".

Solar's response within message #50 was, "But Gov is interfering with free trade, which will have a reciprocal effect from disgruntled countries.  Why is it you can't see these actions come with consequences"?

We may exercise our unilateral determination of goods and the qualifying conditions they are permitted to enter our sovereign nation.

This proposal does not choose winners or losers among foreign nations, or (other than the excluding the values of minerals integral to goods that have been legally and explicitly described as precious or scarce), it does not choose among any industries' goods.

If you consider importing and exporting as a single global trade industry, it is of advantage to any USA enterprise that competes or aspires to compete with foreign goods within or beyond USA's borders.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
There have been many instances of our federal government altruistically failing to defend the interests of USA enterprises despite any trade agreements' mention of participants' entitlement to all considerations among most favored (foreign) nations.  Those attempting to import USA goods into some nations have been subject to lesser consideration than our other competing foreign exporting nations'.

Under this proposed USA Import Certificate policy, even if our federal government continues to be ineffective, entities perpetrating mischief undermining USA's goods exporting, would do much less harm to the USA and much more harm to themselves, (because this proposal denies even the federal government of any discretion with regard to this policy.

The federal government has on occasions traded away the interests of USA commercial enterprises to satisfy the goals of other government agencies.  This is much less likely to occur under an IC trade policy.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on August 15, 2013, 07:01:54 PM
In response to Supposn's writing: "The federal government is granted no right to favor or discriminate between foreign nations".

Solar's response within message #50 was, "But Gov is interfering with free trade, which will have a reciprocal effect from disgruntled countries.  Why is it you can't see these actions come with consequences"?

We may exercise our unilateral determination of goods and the qualifying conditions they are permitted to enter our sovereign nation.

This proposal does not choose winners or losers among foreign nations, or (other than the excluding the values of minerals integral to goods that have been legally and explicitly described as precious or scarce), it does not choose among any industries' goods.

If you consider importing and exporting as a single global trade industry, it is of advantage to any USA enterprise that competes or aspires to compete with foreign goods within or beyond USA's borders.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
There have been many instances of our federal government altruistically failing to defend the interests of USA enterprises despite any trade agreements' mention of participants' entitlement to all considerations among most favored (foreign) nations.  Those attempting to import USA goods into some nations have been subject to lesser consideration than our other competing foreign exporting nations'.

Under this proposed USA Import Certificate policy, even if our federal government continues to be ineffective, entities perpetrating mischief undermining USA's goods exporting, would do much less harm to the USA and much more harm to themselves, (because this proposal denies even the federal government of any discretion with regard to this policy.

The federal government has on occasions traded away the interests of USA commercial enterprises to satisfy the goals of other government agencies.  This is much less likely to occur under an IC trade policy.

Respectfully, Supposn

Please use the quote function, it's really hard trying to figure out your posts.
If you need help, just ask.

But your proposal neglects parts needed my American manufacturers, many COs here import parts from around the world they then sell these finished products to other Mkts.
Do you have any idea what repercussions this would have on a struggling business, from layoffs, to bankruptcy?

How about we let the mkt figure it out, and get govt out of the way altogether?