Quote from: Supposn on November 06, 2013, 07:37:40 AM
VAT's socialistic?

Solar, if you do not know a word's meaning, I suggest you refrain from using the  word.

VAT, (Value Added Tax) refers to a method of administering sales taxes.  In the case of VAT, it is an absolutely superior method.  I'm aware of nothing regarding other sales tax methods that would within any circumstances be of greater advantage then the VAT method.
Vat is the only sales tax method that assures no redundant taxation of any item; (i.e. ALL other sales tax methods to some extent levy taxes upon prior taxes paid within the links of commerce transactions' chains.
               Since sellers within intermediate transactions return only the differences between the sales taxes they collect and the sales taxes they paid, There's much less inducement for intermediate purchasers to request that the sales transaction not be recorded and the sales tax be evaded.
This quickens and increases enterprises cash flows.  That's particularly important to small businesses that couldn't afford the additional costs of revolving credit if the banks would even offer it to them.
Many nations that had used conventional sales taxes, have converted to VAT.  I'm unaware of any nation that has enacted other sales tax methods since VAT has been generally used by nations.  I'm aware of no nation that had a Vat system and then converted to another method of sales tax administration.
Your paranoiac and perceive socialism within anything you disagree with.

Refer to:
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/financial/value-added-tax-%28i-e-vat%29/

Respectfully, Supposn

Refer to: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Full Definition of SOCIALISM
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a :  a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
2b :  a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3:  a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.

What part of "Micromanagement" by the Govt of the Free Mkt do you not understand?
That IS pure socialism!

Quote from: Solar on November 06, 2013, 08:34:41 AM
What part of "Micromanagement" by the Govt of the Free Mkt do you not understand?
That IS pure socialism!

Solar, what's the relationship between the Value added tax and socialism or government micromangment.
Prior conventional sales tax doesn't and the VAT method of sales tax administration does require government intrusion?  Sales taxes are socialistic?

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on November 07, 2013, 06:27:31 PM
Solar, what's the relationship between the Value added tax and socialism or government micromangment.
Prior conventional sales tax doesn't and the VAT method of sales tax administration does require government intrusion?  Sales taxes are socialistic?

Respectfully, Supposn

As we sit today, when I buy a product from my manufacturer, he has my tax ID on file, he sends me my order, my distributors order from me, I send the product on to them, they sell it to their retailers, who pay the tax.

In your system, every part is taxed, once assembled, it is given a value, and an additional tax, the part is then sold to another manufacturer, he applies the part to his product, which again needs to be evaluated and a tax is applied accordingly, he then sells his end product to another who installs it in his product, again, a govt agent has to valuate it's worth.
This process continues on till the final sale, where the purchaser just paid an additional 20 to 30% increase in cost because of all the added govt assessors.

And you don't see a problem with this? The govt is in your books every step of the way, that is not freedom, that is socialism!

Oh sure. Let's be like France. Now there's a model of fiscal propriety! 

Quote from: TboneAgain on November 07, 2013, 08:49:43 PM
Oh sure. Let's be like France. Now there's a model of fiscal propriety! 

Solar, you're opposed to a sales tax and I suppose you're dissatisfied with our current income tax systems.

Are you a proponent of any method for us to obtain sufficient tax revenue and has a reasonable expectation to ever be an enacted as federal law?

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on November 14, 2013, 11:38:19 AM
Solar, you're opposed to a sales tax and I suppose you're dissatisfied with our current income tax systems.

Are you a proponent of any method for us to obtain sufficient tax revenue and has a reasonable expectation to ever be an enacted as federal law?

Respectfully, Supposn

Hmm... What do you call "sufficient tax revenue"?  As I remember in 1950 and 1960 we had "sufficient tax revenue".  Would 75% of your pay check be sufficient? 

Quote from: Supposn on November 14, 2013, 11:38:19 AM
Solar, you're opposed to a sales tax and I suppose you're dissatisfied with our current income tax systems.

Are you a proponent of any method for us to obtain sufficient tax revenue and has a reasonable expectation to ever be an enacted as federal law?

Respectfully, Supposn

Where did you get that? I said I'm a proponent of a Fair Tax.

Quote from: Supposn on November 14, 2013, 11:38:19 AM
(Solar) ... Are you a proponent of any method for us to obtain sufficient tax revenue and has a reasonable expectation to ever be an enacted as federal law?  Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Solar on November 14, 2013, 02:28:48 PM
Where did you get that? I said I'm a proponent of a Fair Tax.

Solar, the basis of the Fair Tax is to replace income taxes with a sales tax.  I believe we concur that the U.S. Congress and the president would only accept enacting the transfer from income tax to sales tax as simultaneously enactments.

The contention between us is my belief that the U.S. Congress and the president would only accept enacting the transfer of our major tax revenue sources as multi incremental steps.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: LibDave on October 21, 2013, 05:32:30 AM
Tax Fraud has become big business and has gone high tech where the perpetrators have software programs and everything that automatically fill out the forms for them.  I was told rumors many of those involved are being muscled out by the big boys though it's still difficult for them to control.  I also read a story written by a journalist on the internet about it who claimed the problem likely costs us close to $70B/year and is worth perhaps $4-5B/year to organized crime.

Peanuts.

Once a nation has been "fundamentally transformed," the concept of "taxes" becomes irrelevant.

In a fully-liberalized economy, government-coerced-and-funded corruption isn't a drain on the economy; it IS the economy.

Quote from: Solar on November 07, 2013, 07:25:11 PM
As we sit today, when I buy a product from my manufacturer, he has my tax ID on file, he sends me my order, my distributors order from me, I send the product on to them, they sell it to their retailers, who pay the tax.

In your system, every part is taxed, once assembled, it is given a value, and an additional tax, the part is then sold to another manufacturer, he applies the part to his product, which again needs to be evaluated and a tax is applied accordingly, he then sells his end product to another who installs it in his product, again, a govt agent has to valuate it's worth.
This process continues on till the final sale, where the purchaser just paid an additional 20 to 30% increase in cost because of all the added govt assessors.

And you don't see a problem with this? The govt is in your books every step of the way, that is not freedom, that is socialism!

Solar, you've described what once the conventional method of administrating sales taxes.
You don't mention it being (in your opinion) socialist.

There's no appreciable difference in the paper work of the prior and the VAT methods of sales tax administration.  The significant difference between them is VAT's lesser opportunities and inducements of losses due to undocumented sales transactions; (i.e. VAT produces greater tax revenue with no greater government intervention or expenditures to government to enterprises.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on November 20, 2013, 02:40:34 AM
Solar, you've described what once the conventional method of administrating sales taxes.
You don't mention it being (in your opinion) socialist.

There's no appreciable difference in the paper work of the prior and the VAT methods of sales tax administration.  The significant difference between them is VAT's lesser opportunities and inducements of losses due to undocumented sales transactions; (i.e. VAT produces greater tax revenue with no greater government intervention or expenditures to government to enterprises.

Respectfully, Supposn

That may have made sense in your head, but it fell apart in type.
Try plain English, you're failing miserably at conveying your point otherwise.

Quote from: Solar on November 20, 2013, 06:42:16 AM
That may have made sense in your head, but it fell apart in type.
Try plain English, you're failing miserably at conveying your point otherwise.

Solar, I don't believe that I overestimated your intelligence.  I doubt that you're actually unable to understand my reply #70. 
But I'll attempt to more clearly express my point in a simpler manner.
(1)   . Do you believe that sales taxes themselves are socialistic?   Please limit your answer to yes or no.
(2)   Do you believe that Value Added taxes are themselves socialistic? Please limit your answer to yes or no.

(3)   The governments that chose VAT as their sales tax method did not (I believe) considered sales taxes themselves as socialistic or the differences between VAT and other methods of sales taxes as being more or less socialistic.  They chose what they considered to be the superior sales tax administrative method.   If you can, please comment upon this statement and (if you wish to do so), elaborate upon your answers to questions #1 & #2.

Respectfully, Supposn

Quote from: Supposn on November 20, 2013, 08:41:56 AM
Solar, I don't believe that I overestimated your intelligence.  I doubt that you're actually unable to understand my reply #70. 
But I'll attempt to more clearly express my point in a simpler manner.
(1)   . Do you believe that sales taxes themselves are socialistic?   Please limit your answer to yes or no.
(2)   Do you believe that Value Added taxes are themselves socialistic? Please limit your answer to yes or no.

(3)   The governments that chose VAT as their sales tax method did not (I believe) considered sales taxes themselves as socialistic or the differences between VAT and other methods of sales taxes as being more or less socialistic.  They chose what they considered to be the superior sales tax administrative method.   If you can, please comment upon this statement and (if you wish to do so), elaborate upon your answers to questions #1 & #2.

Respectfully, Supposn

(1) No.
(2) Yes, and so do the commies.

QuoteAccording to The Provisional Regulation of P.R.C on VAT, Value-added tax should be paid by enterprises or individuals who sell merchandise, provide processing, repairing, or assembling service, or import goods within the territory of the People's Republic of China on the added value derived from their production, selling merchandise, providing industrial repairing or assembling service.

⑵ Taxable items and tax rates

Based on different taxable goods, services, different flat rates and zero rate are adopted. The table of the taxable items and rates is as following:

Table of VAT Taxable Items and Rates

Coverage of collection    Rate
Exportation of goods(except otherwise stimulated by the state)    0

Agriculture, forestry, products of animal husbandry, aquatic products;

Edible vegetable and grain duplicates;

Tap water, heating, cooling, hot air supplying, hot water, gas, liquefied petroleum gas, natural gas, coal/charcoal products for household use;

Book, newspapers, magazines(excluding the newspapers and magazines distributed by the post department)

Feeds, chemical fertilizers, agricultural chemicals, agricultural machinery and plastic converting film for farming;

Selected metal mineral products, Selected non-metal mineral products, coal.
    13%

Crude oil, mine salt and goods other than those listed above;

Taxable services.
   17%

http://www.china.org.cn/english/LivinginChina/202770.htm

Solar, regarding your description of China's VAT regulations within reply #73, all republics, all biographies, all nations and all of nations' VATs are not the same.

I'm somewhat more aware of Great Britain's VAT because I can read government's published regulations directly without depending upon other's interpretation.  Great Britain's VAT is much simpler and has much fewer categories than does China.
The details of any sales tax are determined by the governments' law makers and are not particularly dependent upon the taxes administrative method.  A VAT or any other sales tax method or any other U.S. Congressional acts reflect the congress's intelligence or the foolishness.

I'm aware of situations and conditions within which VAT's superior to other sales tax methods but I'm unaware of any situation or conditions where VAT is inferior to any other sales tax methods.

I do not understand how you can consider VAT as socialistic and other sales tax methods as not being socialistic.  What's the difference you do and I do not perceive?
History implies if we adopted a SALES TAX administrative method other than VAT, we would in the future convert to the superior VAT method.  I would be no less a proponent of a federal sales tax if the U.S. Congress did not choose the superior VAT method.

Respectfully, Supposn