Quote from: cubedemon on July 31, 2015, 10:56:07 AM
Okay Solar,  you said your piece and I will say mine.  The younger generations don't need allegories, hackneyed sayings and bumper sticker slogans that mean absolutely nothing.  What they need is guidance as to how to function in today's world of 2015.  They do not need emotional and self-esteem pep talks and positive affirmations and be told to be confident, be positive etc and they're entitled to nothing.   What they need is specific step by step guidance as to what they must to succeed in today's world. 

No innuendos, no convoluted motivational sayings or vague criticism.   What they need is specific and constructive feedback in specific and concrete terms.

What you fail to realize is that there is NO step by step guide to success.  Never has been!!

You are the definition of a lemming..... waiting to be programmed for success!!!

I do not know your age but your parents share some of the blame for your skewed thinking.  They did not raise you to be self sufficient.  They didn't just wake up when you were 18 and decide you had a problem.  This started in your early development years.

If you have a gripe with society for your dilemma, I suggest you begin with your own parents.  Sit down and have a heart to heart visit with them.  Ask them for further guidance or accept the fact that you will remain dependent upon them for the remainder of your miserable life.  I say miserable because that is what it sounds like you are.

The very fact that you came to a political discussion forum to complain and seek advice is very misdirected.

We cannot help you.  You must seek appropriate professional help or embrace your plight and adjust your attitude.

Quote from: cubedemon on July 31, 2015, 10:56:07 AM
Okay Solar,  you said your piece and I will say mine.  The younger generations don't need allegories, hackneyed sayings and bumper sticker slogans that mean absolutely nothing.  What they need is guidance as to how to function in today's world of 2015.  They do not need emotional and self-esteem pep talks and positive affirmations and be told to be confident, be positive etc and they're entitled to nothing.   What they need is specific step by step guidance as to what they must to succeed in today's world. 

No innuendos, no convoluted motivational sayings or vague criticism.   What they need is specific and constructive feedback in specific and concrete terms.

WRONG!!! What they need is a boot in the ass!

They have been coddled, told they are spetchal, that they are somehow entitled.
You've been given the tools to make a life for yourself, but appear to insist you are disadvantaged, well, I've got news for ya, you're no different than anyone else, you're not spetchal, we all come with handicaps, it's all a part of life.
So get over yourself!

Quote from: kroz on July 31, 2015, 12:00:51 PM
What you fail to realize is that there is NO step by step guide to success.  Never has been!!

You are the definition of a lemming..... waiting to be programmed for success!!!

I do not know your age but your parents share some of the blame for your skewed thinking.  They did not raise you to be self sufficient.  They didn't just wake up when you were 18 and decide you had a problem.  This started in your early development years.

If you have a gripe with society for your dilemma, I suggest you begin with your own parents.  Sit down and have a heart to heart visit with them.  Ask them for further guidance or accept the fact that you will remain dependent upon them for the remainder of your miserable life.  I say miserable because that is what it sounds like you are.

The very fact that you came to a political discussion forum to complain and seek advice is very misdirected.

We cannot help you.  You must seek appropriate professional help or embrace your plight and adjust your attitude.

QuoteWhat you fail to realize is that there is NO step by step guide to success.  Never has been!!

Get up, go to work, work your ass off, then go home and go to bed.  Do the same thing the next day, and keep on doing it.   

Worked for me!   

Quote from: kroz on July 31, 2015, 12:00:51 PM
What you fail to realize is that there is NO step by step guide to success.  Never has been!!

You are the definition of a lemming..... waiting to be programmed for success!!!

I do not know your age but your parents share some of the blame for your skewed thinking.  They did not raise you to be self sufficient.  They didn't just wake up when you were 18 and decide you had a problem.  This started in your early development years.

If you have a gripe with society for your dilemma, I suggest you begin with your own parents.  Sit down and have a heart to heart visit with them.  Ask them for further guidance or accept the fact that you will remain dependent upon them for the remainder of your miserable life.  I say miserable because that is what it sounds like you are.

The very fact that you came to a political discussion forum to complain and seek advice is very misdirected.

We cannot help you.  You must seek appropriate professional help or embrace your plight and adjust your attitude.

Something tells me he's under the illusion that life is a Utopia of Unicorns and beautiful Princesses picked from the money tree.
Of course I jest, but he has to get through his head, life is what he makes it "NOW", not tomorrow, not a decade from now.
Jump in with both feet, make mistakes, it's what humans do.

Cube, you're done cooking, you're an adult now, you didn't come with an instruction booklet, none of us did, we discovered fire was hot, that ice was cold and sought a middle ground and so have you, and that's how we live life, trying to stay in the middle of extremes.

This is the definitely the pot calling the kettle black.   I'm called a lemming yet you all are saying the same exact sayings and the same exact quotes.   

No one is special

You're entitled to nothing

Get over yourself

Nothing is guaranteed in life

and independence

and more

All you guys are doing is spouting the same trite and hackneyed slogans that I've heard before.   Where is your independent and original thinking?    I have asked thorough questions in which most of you dodge the questions and what you guys do is give the same canned unoriginal slogans, one-liners, and hackneyed phrases.   

Quote from: Solar on July 31, 2015, 12:41:59 PM
WRONG!!! What they need is a boot in the ass!

They have been coddled, told they are spetchal, that they are somehow entitled.
You've been given the tools to make a life for yourself, but appear to insist you are disadvantaged, well, I've got news for ya, you're no different than anyone else, you're not spetchal, we all come with handicaps, it's all a part of life.
So get over yourself!

In American society, aren't there winners and losers and isn't American society a competitive society which means in it some are predestined to win and some are predestined to lose.   At the same time you're saying everyone has been given the tools to make a life for themselves and they're able to use these tools effectively?   So, in essence you're saying that everyone has the tools to succeed no matter what the circumstances are and anyone and everyone can win and succeed even though American society is a competitive society in which some are going to lose?

Do you not see the contradictions to American beliefs and American culture such as this?  How do both of these thoughts and beliefs hold up at the same exact time?   If this is not Orwellian Double Think then I do not know what is. 

Another thing, we're all not supposed to follow the crowd yet people do not follow the crowd as everyone else does.   We're supposed to be individualistic and independent in the exact same way as everyone else.   

American society is a contradictory, inconsistent society with elements of double-think.

Quote from: cubedemon on August 01, 2015, 07:24:53 AM
In American society, aren't there winners and losers and isn't American society a competitive society which means in it some are predestined to win and some are predestined to lose.   At the same time you're saying everyone has been given the tools to make a life for themselves and they're able to use these tools effectively?   So, in essence you're saying that everyone has the tools to succeed no matter what the circumstances are and anyone and everyone can win and succeed even though American society is a competitive society in which some are going to lose?

Do you not see the contradictions to American beliefs and American culture such as this?  How do both of these thoughts and beliefs hold up at the same exact time?   If this is not Orwellian Double Think then I do not know what is. 

Another thing, we're all not supposed to follow the crowd yet people do not follow the crowd as everyone else does.   We're supposed to be individualistic and independent in the exact same way as everyone else.   

American society is a contradictory, inconsistent society with elements of double-think.

I think it's time for you to move out of your mothers pink basement and experience life head on. 

Quote from: walkstall on August 01, 2015, 08:19:13 AM
I think it's time for you to move out of your mothers pink basement and experience life head on.

Wow!   Instead of critiquing the content and the logic of what I say it's either critiquing my character or critiquing my writing style and my quote style.   

By the way and in this case Solar, I "quoted the entire post and parsed accordingly" exactly as you did with what I thought was the most relevant way to parse and respond. 

The problem with what you say is what if parts of what someone says requires no response and other parts require a response.   How would I address the parts that require no response?   Do I put the word Null?  Do I state that I have no response?  Do I quote it anyway and simply not respond?   

Quote from: cubedemon on August 01, 2015, 08:44:16 AM
Wow!   Instead of critiquing the content and the logic of what I say it's either critiquing my character or critiquing my writing style and my quote style.   

By the way and in this case Solar, I "quoted the entire post and parsed accordingly" exactly as you did with what I thought was the most relevant way to parse and respond. 

The problem with what you say is what if parts of what someone says requires no response and other parts require a response.   How would I address the parts that require no response?   Do I put the word Null?  Do I state that I have no response?  Do I quote it anyway and simply not respond?

Pull your head out of you ass and choose one.  It least it would be a good start for you.   Who knows you may even get out of the poor me stage. 

Quote from: cubedemon on August 01, 2015, 07:24:53 AM
In American society, aren't there winners and losers and isn't American society a competitive society which means in it some are predestined to win and some are predestined to lose.   At the same time you're saying everyone has been given the tools to make a life for themselves and they're able to use these tools effectively?   So, in essence you're saying that everyone has the tools to succeed no matter what the circumstances are and anyone and everyone can win and succeed even though American society is a competitive society in which some are going to lose?

Do you not see the contradictions to American beliefs and American culture such as this?  How do both of these thoughts and beliefs hold up at the same exact time?   If this is not Orwellian Double Think then I do not know what is. 

Another thing, we're all not supposed to follow the crowd yet people do not follow the crowd as everyone else does.   We're supposed to be individualistic and independent in the exact same way as everyone else.   

American society is a contradictory, inconsistent society with elements of double-think.

Predestined?  Are you implying that our outcomes in life have zero relation to what we do, what decisions we make, how we handle both success and failure?  If so, you are WAY off the mark of what being in a free and competitive society.

Yes, in a competitive world (and there is no other kind) there will be winners and there will be losers.  That is life itself.  And I am not saying this as in "c'est la vie" that's life. I am saying that is the very basis for life itself: competition.  From protozoan to invertebrates to Homo Sapiens, life itself is competition. If a person becomes ill with a disease, they are in competition, pitting their life against the life of the organism causing the disease. When one catches a cold, the person's life is rarely in any great danger (though there are exceptions), but they still end up killing off the virus inside their bodies that caused the cold.

In human society competition currently manifests itself in the realm of economics. Individual humans compete with each other for their share of limited resources: food, clothing, shelter, and, because we are highly complex organisms, entertainment. Success results in an adequate share of those four necessities. Failure results in an inadequate share of one or more of those four necessities.  But, due to a number of factors, mostly coming from various technologies, United States society produces enough of the four necessities to accommodate success for every individual within. Some attain more of those necessities, and others fewer, but there is enough for everyone.

Of course in a compassionate society, we stand ready to assist those who have trouble, who may have made a mistake, or simply did not succeed in what they were attempting to accomplish due to a number of various factors. However, compassionate support was never intended to become a lifestyle in itself for those who CHOOSE to remain losers. Such a structure is harmful to all society because it bypasses competition. Because there is one more aspect to competition that the socialist humanist progressives just do not understand. Competition, since it is the single commonality in ALL forms of life, is, in itself, a NECESSITY.

Take any other form of life out there, and remove its competitive nature, and that form of life will become extinct within a few generations. For instance, take some of the more exotic domesticated canines. We have bred dogs which, because of the desired traits we bred for, are completely dependent on humans to provide for them. Put them on their own, they will die out, because we bred their ability to compete right out of them.

Think about yourself, how you feel when you manage to accomplish a task you set out for yourself. Even if the task is so simple as putting together one of the less expensive Lego sets, accomplishment bring about the best feelings of happiness the human organism is capable of. Feeling good about oneself is necessary to health, and competition is the sole factor in life that has the aspect of bringing about that feeling of accomplishment.

Getting back to the idea of predestination, no. No one is predestined to succeed, and no one whose mental and physical abilities are within reasonable range is predestined to fail. Some, due to physical or mental factors have more difficulty in competing, and some will be dependent on others due to their physical or mental factors. In "nature", such an organism would simply die.  In human society, we care for them because they are incapable of caring for themselves.

But for those whose mental and/or physical abilities are within normal range (ie: average minus up to 2 standard deviations), though abilities may be below human average, and therefore may have more difficulty in competing, it is still much healthier for them to compete. They will be happier, even if their instances of success and accomplishment are fewer than those they are competing against, because the feelings of accomplishment can ONLY come from competition.

Quote from: cubedemon on August 01, 2015, 07:12:49 AM
This is the definitely the pot calling the kettle black.   I'm called a lemming yet you all are saying the same exact sayings and the same exact quotes.   

No one is special

You're entitled to nothing

Get over yourself

Nothing is guaranteed in life

and independence

and more

All you guys are doing is spouting the same trite and hackneyed slogans that I've heard before.   

And still you don't gete it?
Obviously we aren't the first to tell you to get your shit together.

Quote from: cubedemon on August 01, 2015, 07:24:53 AM
In American society, aren't there winners and losers and isn't American society a competitive society which means in it some are predestined to win and some are predestined to lose.

Bull shit! You just contradicted yourself.   

QuoteAt the same time you're saying everyone has been given the tools to make a life for themselves and they're able to use these tools effectively?   So, in essence you're saying that everyone has the tools to succeed no matter what the circumstances are and anyone and everyone can win and succeed even though American society is a competitive society in which some are going to lose?

No, that's exactly what we're saying.

QuoteDo you not see the contradictions to American beliefs and American culture such as this?  How do both of these thoughts and beliefs hold up at the same exact time?   If this is not Orwellian Double Think then I do not know what is.

There is no contradiction, just your inability to see it, or unsillingness to accept reality.

QuoteAnother thing, we're all not supposed to follow the crowd yet people do not follow the crowd as everyone else does.   We're supposed to be individualistic and independent in the exact same way as everyone else.   

American society is a contradictory, inconsistent society with elements of double-think.

Again wrong! You are able to succeed or fail, there is no one stopping you, but it appears you have an issue with success, it seems the goal you've set for yourself is unachievable.
You live in a very small world, get out, explore the country, broaden your view, see how others live rurally speaking.
Hell, if you're physical able, you could live the life of a cowboy, though it doesn't pay well, they provide food and shelter, all they ask in return is a fair days labor.
Get your head out of the clouds, the life you see as successful may not be achievable for you.

QuotePredestined?  Are you implying that our outcomes in life have zero relation to what we do, what decisions we make, how we handle both success and failure?  If so, you are WAY off the mark of what being in a free and competitive society.

No, I'm implying that at all.  It is true that the outcomes of our lives do have SOME relation to what we do what decisions we make, how we handle both success and failure but not ABSOLUTELY.   It is also true that the outcomes of our lives do have some relation to the things outside of our decisions like genetics, personality, societal social standards, societal laws, and laws of existence (i.e. gravity, laws of thermodynamics,etc,etc.)

QuoteYes, in a competitive world (and there is no other kind) there will be winners and there will be losers.  That is life itself.  And I am not saying this as in "c'est la vie" that's life. I am saying that is the very basis for life itself: competition.  From protozoan to invertebrates to Homo Sapiens, life itself is competition. If a person becomes ill with a disease, they are in competition, pitting their life against the life of the organism causing the disease. When one catches a cold, the person's life is rarely in any great danger (though there are exceptions), but they still end up killing off the virus inside their bodies that caused the cold.

I agree but not absolutely agree.   Life as you call it is much more complex than this.  In the end, sometimes the most "competitive" is not the most suited for its environment and sometimes the most competitive can die of by eating crap from a garbage dump.  http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/no-time-for-bullies-baboons-retool-their-culture.html 

QuoteIn human society competition currently manifests itself in the realm of economics. Individual humans compete with each other for their share of limited resources: food, clothing, shelter, and, because we are highly complex organisms, entertainment. Success results in an adequate share of those four necessities. Failure results in an inadequate share of one or more of those four necessities.  But, due to a number of factors, mostly coming from various technologies, United States society produces enough of the four necessities to accommodate success for every individual within. Some attain more of those necessities, and others fewer, but there is enough for everyone.

It is most certainly true that there is enough for everyone yet not everyone is able to make benefit of these four necessities on their own. 

QuoteOf course in a compassionate society, we stand ready to assist those who have trouble, who may have made a mistake, or simply did not succeed in what they were attempting to accomplish due to a number of various factors. However, compassionate support was never intended to become a lifestyle in itself for those who CHOOSE to remain losers. Such a structure is harmful to all society because it bypasses competition. Because there is one more aspect to competition that the socialist humanist progressives just do not understand. Competition, since it is the single commonality in ALL forms of life, is, in itself, a NECESSITY.

How does the existing structure, laws and culture of our society allow a person to sustain themselves as a loser.   For welfare, one can only stay on it for a limited time and for disability, disability doesn't pay for even the cost of living.

It may be that competition is necessary but I have to ask, is it sufficient?   Does competition ONLY, bring humanity a good quality life or can what is necessary and vital to one's life be the destroyer of life like it did that Baboon troop?  Do human beings need more than just survival of the fittest and climbing, clawing and scraping to the top?  Let's say one reaches the top.   What then?   What is the prize exactly?   In the end, do we not all meet the same fate which is death?   Can we take our earnings and winnings in death?  What happened to all of the T-Rexes who were on top?    One answer is we may pass our genetic seed.   It is said at the end billions of years from now the universe will experience a big crunch(one possibility)  If this is so, what was and is the point to all of this competition?   Who will win in the end?   So, is competition sufficient for truly living life?

QuoteTake any other form of life out there, and remove its competitive nature, and that form of life will become extinct within a few generations. For instance, take some of the more exotic domesticated canines. We have bred dogs which, because of the desired traits we bred for, are completely dependent on humans to provide for them. Put them on their own, they will die out, because we bred their ability to compete right out of them.

True but when a species lacks other traits but has competitive one will more likely have the baboon troop disaster. 

QuoteThink about yourself, how you feel when you manage to accomplish a task you set out for yourself. Even if the task is so simple as putting together one of the less expensive Lego sets, accomplishment bring about the best feelings of happiness the human organism is capable of. Feeling good about oneself is necessary to health, and competition is the sole factor in life that has the aspect of bringing about that feeling of accomplishment.

I never thought about doing a task for myself like legos as competition.   Why can't I simply enjoy doing it and have fun?

QuoteGetting back to the idea of predestination, no. No one is predestined to succeed, and no one whose mental and physical abilities are within reasonable range is predestined to fail. Some, due to physical or mental factors have more difficulty in competing, and some will be dependent on others due to their physical or mental factors. In "nature", such an organism would simply die.  In human society, we care for them because they are incapable of caring for themselves.

Maybe predestination is the wrong word then to use. It may be to absolute.  Here is how I see it.   Life has winners and losers.   Some are more likely to win and some are more likely  to lose.   There are factors that determine if one will win and one will lose.   One's choices is one of them, this is true but only tells a part of the story.   Genetics also determines it, laws of existence, social standards, personality, legal laws, knowledge of different areas like but not limited to legal laws, social standards, what choices one has, etc.   One's success or failure is more likely to happen based upon complex variables that can interrelate with each other and other variables that I've not thought of and stated here.

QuoteBut for those whose mental and/or physical abilities are within normal range (ie: average minus up to 2 standard deviations), though abilities may be below human average, and therefore may have more difficulty in competing, it is still much healthier for them to compete. They will be happier, even if their instances of success and accomplishment are fewer than those they are competing against, because the feelings of accomplishment can ONLY come from competition.

I guess what I don't understand is why can't one accomplish something just for the sake of enjoying it?  Let's say someone enjoys writing poetry.   Maybe that person simply wants to write and doesn't care about competing, clawing and scraping against others.   For a painter, why can't painting the picture just bring him personal satisfaction?   Even if most people think its crap the painter still enjoyed himself and had fun, right?   So, why does one always need to be in competitive mode?

Quote from: cubedemon on August 02, 2015, 08:02:54 AM

I guess what I don't understand is why can't one accomplish something just for the sake of enjoying it?  Let's say someone enjoys writing poetry.   Maybe that person simply wants to write and doesn't care about competing, clawing and scraping against others.   For a painter, why can't painting the picture just bring him personal satisfaction?   Even if most people think its crap the painter still enjoyed himself and had fun, right?   So, why does one always need to be in competitive mode?

We do not, there called a hobby where I come from. 

Quote from: cubedemon on August 02, 2015, 08:02:54 AM
No, I'm implying that at all.  It is true that the outcomes of our lives do have SOME relation to what we do what decisions we make, how we handle both success and failure but not ABSOLUTELY.   It is also true that the outcomes of our lives do have some relation to the things outside of our decisions like genetics, personality, societal social standards, societal laws, and laws of existence (i.e. gravity, laws of thermodynamics,etc,etc.)

I agree but not absolutely agree.   Life as you call it is much more complex than this.  In the end, sometimes the most "competitive" is not the most suited for its environment and sometimes the most competitive can die of by eating crap from a garbage dump.  http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/no-time-for-bullies-baboons-retool-their-culture.html 

It is most certainly true that there is enough for everyone yet not everyone is able to make benefit of these four necessities on their own. 

How does the existing structure, laws and culture of our society allow a person to sustain themselves as a loser.   For welfare, one can only stay on it for a limited time and for disability, disability doesn't pay for even the cost of living.

It may be that competition is necessary but I have to ask, is it sufficient?   Does competition ONLY, bring humanity a good quality life or can what is necessary and vital to one's life be the destroyer of life like it did that Baboon troop?  Do human beings need more than just survival of the fittest and climbing, clawing and scraping to the top?  Let's say one reaches the top.   What then?   What is the prize exactly?   In the end, do we not all meet the same fate which is death?   Can we take our earnings and winnings in death?  What happened to all of the T-Rexes who were on top?    One answer is we may pass our genetic seed.   It is said at the end billions of years from now the universe will experience a big crunch(one possibility)  If this is so, what was and is the point to all of this competition?   Who will win in the end?   So, is competition sufficient for truly living life?

True but when a species lacks other traits but has competitive one will more likely have the baboon troop disaster. 

I never thought about doing a task for myself like legos as competition.   Why can't I simply enjoy doing it and have fun?

Maybe predestination is the wrong word then to use. It may be to absolute.  Here is how I see it.   Life has winners and losers.   Some are more likely to win and some are more likely  to lose.   There are factors that determine if one will win and one will lose.   One's choices is one of them, this is true but only tells a part of the story.   Genetics also determines it, laws of existence, social standards, personality, legal laws, knowledge of different areas like but not limited to legal laws, social standards, what choices one has, etc.   One's success or failure is more likely to happen based upon complex variables that can interrelate with each other and other variables that I've not thought of and stated here.

I guess what I don't understand is why can't one accomplish something just for the sake of enjoying it?  Let's say someone enjoys writing poetry.   Maybe that person simply wants to write and doesn't care about competing, clawing and scraping against others.   For a painter, why can't painting the picture just bring him personal satisfaction?   Even if most people think its crap the painter still enjoyed himself and had fun, right?   So, why does one always need to be in competitive mode?

Cube, I won't tell you again. Learn the proper way to quote!
Look at my quote to you, you'll see that I quoted you, I did not cut your name out.
That's how it's done.
Do it wrong again, and I'll delete your posts!