The reversal of Roe vs. Wade had unintended consequences. Those consequences was a gift wrapped issue for democrats and they seized the opportunity. What should have been a GOP landslide in 2022 turned into a huge disappointment. Now state legislatures are pushing issues that democrats are turning into an "abortion rallying point". The latest defeat was yesterday in Ohio when changes to the state constitution went down in flames.
Wake up GOP. Quit fighting the tar baby.
Quote from: supsalemgr on August 09, 2023, 07:59:43 AMThe reversal of Roe vs. Wade had unintended consequences. Those consequences was a gift wrapped issue for democrats and they seized the opportunity. What should have been a GOP landslide in 2022 turned into a huge disappointment. Now state legislatures are pushing issues that democrats are turning into an "abortion rallying point". The latest defeat was yesterday in Ohio when changes to the state constitution went down in flames.
Wake up GOP. Quit fighting the tar baby.
I'm afraid this tar baby is going to be here for years to come. The SCOTUS decision gave the states the right to choose which direction abortion is going to go in their states. No one else. Until the SCOTUS decides and rules on the fact that a fetus is a human, with the same rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness, we will see this argument go back and forth based on who has the upper hand in the state legislators.
IMHO, I think the republicans are doing a very poor job getting their message across on this issue on purpose. I think there is a game being played here where the rinos put the bill up to satisfy the base and then give it little support so it will fail.
Quote from: Possum on August 09, 2023, 10:42:18 AMI'm afraid this tar baby is going to be here for years to come. The SCOTUS decision gave the states the right to choose which direction abortion is going to go in their states. No one else. Until the SCOTUS decides and rules on the fact that a fetus is a human, with the same rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness, we will see this argument go back and forth based on who has the upper hand in the state legislators.
IMHO, I think the republicans are doing a very poor job getting their message across on this issue on purpose. I think there is a game being played here where the rinos put the bill up to satisfy the base and then give it little support so it will fail.
I feel GOP politicians should just say let the states decide and leave it there.
Quote from: supsalemgr on August 09, 2023, 10:53:44 AMI feel GOP politicians should just say let the states decide and leave it there.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was referring to state politicians. If they are going to bring this issue up for a vote in the state legislatures, they need to sell it, get the reasons for it out there. If they don't, the democrats will be out there giving their side. Right now, there is no reason for federal congressman to even approach this issue. It is not their call, unless they want to override the whole purpose of being a Republic. The SC decision only gave the matter back to the state, it did not settle the issue and it needs to be settled, the unborn are human, it is past time to treat them as such.
Quote from: Possum on August 09, 2023, 11:09:03 AMSorry, I should have been clearer. I was referring to state politicians. If they are going to bring this issue up for a vote in the state legislatures, they need to sell it, get the reasons for it out there. If they don't, the democrats will be out there giving their side. Right now, there is no reason for federal congressman to even approach this issue. It is not their call, unless they want to override the whole purpose of being a Republic. The SC decision only gave the matter back to the state, it did not settle the issue and it needs to be settled, the unborn are human, it is past time to treat them as such.
I totally agree US House and Senate should not touch. As for state politicians, I think the best approach is to leave existing law in place. This is far larger than a political issue, it is a moral issue. Moral issues cannot be resolved with laws.
Quote from: supsalemgr on August 09, 2023, 07:59:43 AMThe reversal of Roe vs. Wade had unintended consequences. Those consequences was a gift wrapped issue for democrats and they seized the opportunity. What should have been a GOP landslide in 2022 turned into a huge disappointment. Now state legislatures are pushing issues that democrats are turning into an "abortion rallying point". The latest defeat was yesterday in Ohio when changes to the state constitution went down in flames.
Wake up GOP. Quit fighting the tar baby.
Republicans, if they were smart, would back off of the abortion topic because it seems that a majority of Americans aren't as pro-life as believed.
Dems, if they were smart, would back off of wokeness/cancel culture/transgender because Americans very clearly are push back.
Quote from: ZenMode on August 15, 2023, 08:17:33 AMRepublicans, if they were smart, would back off of the abortion topic because it seems that a majority of Americans aren't as pro-life as believed.
Dems, if they were smart, would back off of wokeness/cancel culture/transgender because Americans very clearly are push back.
I agree with you on both points. However, I have learned that for some reason politicians of all stripes chase small groups of voters.
Quote from: ZenMode on August 15, 2023, 08:17:33 AMRepublicans, if they were smart, would back off of the abortion topic because it seems that a majority of Americans aren't as pro-life as believed.
So if they view abortion as murder, which it is, they should look the other way? How about child trafficking? that's pretty controversial, should they look the other way on that one too? How about trans rights vs women's rights. Are we to have no opinion there too? Where do you draw the line Zen? Crap, no wonder this country has people who think they can take away your rights, you're willing to just give them up.
QuoteDems, if they were smart, would back off of wokeness/cancel culture/transgender because Americans very clearly are push back.
Or we can let the liberals show how wrong they are.
Quote from: Possum on August 15, 2023, 09:23:37 AMSo if they view abortion as murder, which it is, they should look the other way?
If you want to win elections, yes, look the other way
for now.
QuoteHow about child trafficking? that's pretty controversial, should they look the other way on that one too? How about trans rights vs women's rights. Are we to have no opinion there too? Where do you draw the line Zen? Crap, no wonder this country has people who think they can take away your rights, you're willing to just give them up.
Or we can let the liberals show how wrong they are.
***STRAW MAN LIMIT EXCEEDED****. I'm not talking about child trafficking,trans rights or simply having an opinion.
Quote from: ZenMode on August 15, 2023, 09:44:23 AMIf you want to win elections, yes, look the other way
Typical response for you Zen. And what about all of us who are sick and tired of politicians who call themselves conservative who have made a career of looking the other way? Since when is not standing up for your principles the way to get elected? How does that work, if a republican refuses to answer on abortion do the democrats cross over and vote for him? Does his base now support him for taking the easy way out? Let me guess, you have no idea why we back Trump so much, do you?
Quote***STRAW MAN LIMIT EXCEEDED****. I'm not talking about child trafficking,trans rights or simply having an opinion.
Again you can not grasp the point. We are talking about standing up for your beliefs. All of them. I can not respect a politician who turns his back on his beliefs and will not vote for one whether the belief is abortion, child abuse, trans. rights or his faith in God. Where do you draw the line?
for now.
Quote from: ZenMode on August 15, 2023, 08:17:33 AMRepublicans, if they were smart, would back off of the abortion topic because it seems that a majority of Americans aren't as pro-life as believed.
Dems, if they were smart, would back off of wokeness/cancel culture/transgender because Americans very clearly are push back.
Nope, a majority of Americans are for life over murder, so no, it is not a political football that can be kicked around.
Not to mention, it was enshrined in our Founding Documents, as in
"Life", Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness!
Killing those in the process of being born, slaps in the face of that entire sentence!
Quote from: Solar on August 15, 2023, 02:47:20 PMNope, a majority of Americans are for life over murder, so no, it is not a political football that can be kicked around.
Not to mention, it was enshrined in our Founding Documents, as in "Life", Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness!
Killing those in the process of being born, slaps in the face of that entire sentence!
People generally being pro-life, which I think the majority are, isn't the same as wanting governments forcing their beliefs on others.
Also, yes, the Constitution does protect our right to life. Where life begins isn't clear.
And, again, you may be right and it may still be true that putting abortion front and center on the campaign trial can cost Republicans wins.
Quote from: ZenMode on August 15, 2023, 03:28:57 PMPeople generally being pro-life, which I think the majority are, isn't the same as wanting governments forcing their beliefs on others.
That's why SCOTUS ruled as it did, it's a States Rights issue! So the Fed Gov isn't forcing anyone to do anything any longer.
You really aren't very good at this debate thing, are you?
QuoteAlso, yes, the Constitution does protect our right to life. Where life begins isn't clear.
Our Founders were beyond clear, otherwise, they'd have made a stipulation.
QuoteAnd, again, you may be right and it may still be true that putting abortion front and center on the campaign trial can cost Republicans wins.
I'm Always Right, but you and I both know I didn't say that shit!
The only ones making abortion an issue, is the Marxist Left!!!
Remember, I lived in a time when only politics was political. The left made everything political for a reason!
Are you claiming otherwise?
So, as I was saying, there have been several elections where the states were surprised by the results and much of that was attributed to the topic of abortion. Regardless of when someone believes life begins, The American people seem to be pushing back against what has happened since the roe versus Wade decision.
Quote from: ZenMode on August 15, 2023, 05:06:39 PMSo, as I was saying, there have been several elections where the states were surprised by the results and much of that was attributed to the topic of abortion. Regardless of when someone believes life begins, The American people seem to be pushing back against what has happened since the roe versus Wade decision.
IF you are talking about the results in the Ohio election and the changes to the state constitution, a quick search would tell you different story. The democrats painted this as an over reach, without using the term abortion, instead using freedom of choice, and spent millions showing how the bad republicans were taking away rights. The republicans basically sat on their collective butt and did little, spent little. they damn sure did not show that this was an issue of life and death. Of right vs wrong. In other words they did not push to win. Sounds like they were taking your advice.
As for the 2022 elections, in the senate races, every incumbent running, won. What that should tell you, red states are very red, and blue states are very blue. This country is very divided. If you can name congressional races that were decided by abortion, list them. And I don't mean where a republican lost in a solid blue territory.
Whether you want to admit it or not, abortion, child abuse, drug abuse, the border, trans rights and the list goes on are all issues we need to know where the candidates stand on. Now is not the time to back down and hide your beliefs. That is how you get a Joe Biden.
Quote from: Possum on August 15, 2023, 05:59:43 PMIF you are talking about the results in the Ohio election and the changes to the state constitution, a quick search would tell you different story. The democrats painted this as an over reach, without using the term abortion, instead using freedom of choice, and spent millions showing how the bad republicans were taking away rights. The republicans basically sat on their collective butt and did little, spent little. they damn sure did not show that this was an issue of life and death. Of right vs wrong. In other words they did not push to win. Sounds like they were taking your advice.
As for the 2022 elections, in the senate races, every incumbent running, won. What that should tell you, red states are very red, and blue states are very blue. This country is very divided. If you can name congressional races that were decided by abortion, list them. And I don't mean where a republican lost in a solid blue territory.
Whether you want to admit it or not, abortion, child abuse, drug abuse, the border, trans rights and the list goes on are all issues we need to know where the candidates stand on. Now is not the time to back down and hide your beliefs. That is how you get a Joe Biden.
I'm not saying anyone should back down on their beliefs. I just don't think it's a good move to make the Presidential election, or probably any election, a referendum on abortion if you're a Republican. There have been a handful of elections, including Montana and Kentucky soon after Dobbs, where abortion rights were supported. Kentucky tried to pass a constitutional amendment (https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-kentucky-abortion-3fa387a4cdc355d50a223f4788aa0ae8) to outlaw law abortion and it failed. Same with Kansas (https://www.npr.org/sections/2022-live-primary-election-race-results/2022/08/02/1115317596/kansas-voters-abortion-legal-reject-constitutional-amendment). North Carolina had unexpected results on an abortion bill, also, I believe. Same with Ohio recently.
Quote from: ZenMode on August 16, 2023, 06:32:55 AMI'm not saying anyone should back down on their beliefs. I just don't think it's a good move to make the Presidential election, or probably any election, a referendum on abortion if you're a Republican.
Like it or not, ever since the SCOTUS overturned Roe and turned abortion back to the states, it is now an issue. I asked you in the post you answered "can you name congressional races that were decided by abortion, list them. And I don't mean where a republican lost in a solid blue territory." since you did not answer I assume you can not name any, I can not find one. There are many prolife who were elected. This will be a states issue, will it be a presidential issue remains to be seen.
QuoteThere have been a handful of elections, including Montana and Kentucky soon after Dobbs, where abortion rights were supported. Kentucky tried to pass a constitutional amendment (https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-kentucky-abortion-3fa387a4cdc355d50a223f4788aa0ae8) to outlaw law abortion and it failed. Same with Kansas (https://www.npr.org/sections/2022-live-primary-election-race-results/2022/08/02/1115317596/kansas-voters-abortion-legal-reject-constitutional-amendment). North Carolina had unexpected results on an abortion bill, also, I believe. Same with Ohio recently.
And here is where we are hitting a snag. The majority (71%) do not want to see abortion legal in the third trimester, while at the same time, do not want to see an out right total ban. Kentucky is an excellent example of what we are facing, they did not pass banning abortion, yet they elected a majority of pro life congressmen. Add to that prolife does a terrible job at getting the message out and tend to let the liberals dictate that message. Ohio is an excellent example.
QuoteI'm not saying anyone should back down on their beliefs. I just don't think it's a good move to make the Presidential election, or probably any election, a referendum on abortion if you're a Republican.
OK, and you think the democrats will go along with that? Like I said before, since Roe was turned back to the states, this is now an issue. Probably the only issue the democrats have. They can not run on education, public safety, the economy, the border, ETC. but they can run on the scared notion that republicans are taking away your rights. We do not need the republicans having meeting to discuss how to hide their views, we need them to discuss how they are going to fight this.
QuoteThere have been a handful of elections, including Montana and Kentucky soon after Dobbs, where abortion rights were supported.
Again, in both those states, pro life candidates were elected. We also have Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Texas, and the list is growing are states that successfully protected the un-born's life. they did pass laws restricting abortion. They also did a great job getting their message out.
QuoteKentucky tried to pass a constitutional amendment (https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-kentucky-abortion-3fa387a4cdc355d50a223f4788aa0ae8) to outlaw law abortion and it failed. Same with Kansas (https://www.npr.org/sections/2022-live-primary-election-race-results/2022/08/02/1115317596/kansas-voters-abortion-legal-reject-constitutional-amendment). North Carolina had unexpected results on an abortion bill, also, I believe. Same with Ohio recently.
Again, like it or not, the left, the media, the liberals, the fanatics, are going to make sure this will be one of the main issues in front of the people. We can not stop that. If our strategy is to ignore the issue, or to claim they are undecided, WE WILL LOSE. The party had better come up with an answer the people accept.
Quote from: Possum on August 16, 2023, 10:45:49 AMLike it or not, ever since the SCOTUS overturned Roe and turned abortion back to the states, it is now an issue. I asked you in the post you answered "can you name congressional races that were decided by abortion, list them. And I don't mean where a republican lost in a solid blue territory." since you did not answer I assume you can not name any, I can not find one. There are many prolife who were elected. This will be a states issue, will it be a presidential issue remains to be seen.
Why people vote for the candidates they do is an ongoing mystery that every political party/candidate would love to solve. There is rarely a singular issue that determines who a person votes for. So, your question is basically impossible to answer.
QuoteAnd here is where we are hitting a snag. The majority (71%) do not want to see abortion legal in the third trimester, while at the same time, do not want to see an out right total ban. Kentucky is an excellent example of what we are facing, they did not pass banning abortion, yet they elected a majority of pro life congressmen. Add to that prolife does a terrible job at getting the message out and tend to let the liberals dictate that message. Ohio is an excellent example.
OK, and you think the democrats will go along with that? Like I said before, since Roe was turned back to the states, this is now an issue. Probably the only issue the democrats have. They can not run on education, public safety, the economy, the border, ETC. but they can run on the scared notion that republicans are taking away your rights. We do not need the republicans having meeting to discuss how to hide their views, we need them to discuss how they are going to fight this.
Again, in both those states, pro life candidates were elected. We also have Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Texas, and the list is growing are states that successfully protected the un-born's life. they did pass laws restricting abortion. They also did a great job getting their message out.
Again, like it or not, the left, the media, the liberals, the fanatics, are going to make sure this will be one of the main issues in front of the people. We can not stop that. If our strategy is to ignore the issue, or to claim they are undecided, WE WILL LOSE. The party had better come up with an answer the people accept.
I'm not saying to completely avoid the topic of abortion. I'm saying that Republicans would be wise,particularly in national elections, to not focus on abortion.
Quote from: ZenMode on August 16, 2023, 11:09:45 AMWhy people vote for the candidates they do is an ongoing mystery that every political party/candidate would love to solve. There is rarely a singular issue that determines who a person votes for. So, your question is basically impossible to answer.I'm not saying to completely avoid the topic of abortion. I'm saying that Republicans would be wise,particularly in national elections, to not focus on abortion.
I don't think it would come up in the republican debates. But you can bet your bottom dollar when the republican debates the democrat it will come up. I hope the republican is ready to defend his belief.
After a year of fretting about President Biden's political standing and their electoral chances in 2024, Democrats are at a moment of high confidence as Republicans prepare for their first presidential debate on Wednesday.
They will be watching with bated breath in hopes that the Republican candidates embrace the likely-to-be-absent Donald J. Trump, defend him over his four criminal indictments, endorse national restrictions on abortion and — in the Democrats' dream scenario — call for cuts to Social Security and Medicare.
Even without Mr. Trump onstage, Democrats see the Republican White House hopefuls as avatars for what they describe as a party in thrall to its extreme elements. Nobody is rooting for the debate to go off the rails more than Democrats praying for Mr. Biden's re-election.
"All I want these people to do is say the same stuff they've been saying on the campaign trail on national TV," said Jim Messina, the campaign manager for President Barack Obama's 2012 re-election bid. "Please continue to double down on a six-week abortion ban. That would be wonderful. Thank you for doing this."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/21/us/politics/gop-republican-debate-democrats.html
Here ya go Zen, start at 38:23. He was in the Capitol on J6.
Former Capitol Police Officer Speaks Out About Jan. 6 Protest
We NEVER give into baby murder. Ever.