Conservative Political Forum

General Category => War Forum => Topic started by: LibDave on October 24, 2013, 03:24:29 AM

Title: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: LibDave on October 24, 2013, 03:24:29 AM
With all the hubbub about domestic issues lately, attention has strayed away from the situations in the Middle East.  Of major concern is the development of nuclear weapons by Iran and the instability this will cause in the region.  It is likely this will result in a race by neighboring nations to attain their own WMD.

Many like myself believed Israel would have struck Iran before now.  With elections approaching in the US it appears as if Israel may postpone the inevitable attack until after November.  The window of opportunity prior to the election is closing quickly.

It may be necessary for Israel to shore up its borders closer to home prior to strikes on Iran farther from home.  The situation in Syria and Egypt are of major concern being directly on their border.  The risk is getting bogged down in a regional conflict allowing Iran Carte Blanche to proceed towards defiance of the international community in developing nuclear weapons and further destabilizing the region.

I am of the opinion Israel can't wait until after the elections.  If signs appear the situation in Syria and Egypt are coming to resolution I believe Israel will take the opportunity shortly to make a preemptive strike.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on October 24, 2013, 05:47:29 AM
Yeah, I don't think it's a question of if, rather when.
Israel will do what is in their best interest, regardless what the rest of the world wants.

I too am surprised they haven't taken them out yet, but then, they have people on the inside and know just how close Iran is to completion.
It's coming.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Ek Ehecatl on October 24, 2013, 04:52:36 PM
Maybe very soon!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/24/iran-bomb-one-month-away/3181373/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/24/iran-bomb-one-month-away/3181373/)

Israel has been upping their midair re-fueling capabilities, the Saudis's and the Gulf Arabs have lost any faith in Obama doing anything but talk, they will do it together and probably very soon. IMO
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on October 25, 2013, 06:38:09 PM
Quote from: Ek Ehecatl on October 24, 2013, 04:52:36 PM
Maybe very soon!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/24/iran-bomb-one-month-away/3181373/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/10/24/iran-bomb-one-month-away/3181373/)

Israel has been upping their midair re-fueling capabilities, the Saudis's and the Gulf Arabs have lost any faith in Obama doing anything but talk, they will do it together and probably very soon. IMO
I hope they follow through.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Ek Ehecatl on October 26, 2013, 01:44:17 PM
Quote from: Solar on October 25, 2013, 06:38:09 PM
I hope they follow through.
They almost have to, Iran has been preparing for a couple of decades, they're capabilities as far as air power and missiles is nothing to take lightly, so it seems most unlikely that when (not if) the Israeli's and the Gulf Arabs move it would have to be a huge operation to take down the regime, timed with an internal uprising, otherwise it would end up a huge disastrous war..
The question is will Obumbler commit a couple of Carrier strike forces to the mission......who knows...
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on October 26, 2013, 02:26:20 PM
Quote from: Ek Ehecatl on October 26, 2013, 01:44:17 PM
They almost have to, Iran has been preparing for a couple of decades, they're capabilities as far as air power and missiles is nothing to take lightly, so it seems most unlikely that when (not if) the Israeli's and the Gulf Arabs move it would have to be a huge operation to take down the regime, timed with an internal uprising, otherwise it would end up a huge disastrous war..
The question is will Obumbler commit a couple of Carrier strike forces to the mission......who knows...
I wouldn't underestimate Israel, they are a far better trained and have a better supplied military, (thank US).
I honestly don't believe Iran will take them head on, they will use chemicals and suicide bombers in retaliation, depending on just how bad Israel cripples them.
Think 1967....
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Ek Ehecatl on October 26, 2013, 02:39:06 PM
1967 didn't have hundreds if not thousands of missiles to fire off, and believe me I don't underestimate Israel, or Russia for that matter, we don't know what Iran has really do we?? It could be a clusterfuk.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on October 26, 2013, 03:13:29 PM
Quote from: Ek Ehecatl on October 26, 2013, 02:39:06 PM
1967 didn't have hundreds if not thousands of missiles to fire off, and believe me I don't underestimate Israel, or Russia for that matter, we don't know what Iran has really do we?? It could be a clusterfuk.
Iran would not risk a major retaliation, it would be certain death for their very way of life.
Israel will only strike military targets, a retaliation from Iran would take innocent lives, and that would create serious backlash from the world, even if they are just a bunch of supposed hated Jews, the free world would side with Israel.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: LibDave on October 28, 2013, 01:38:02 AM
Quote from: Solar on October 26, 2013, 03:13:29 PM
Iran would not risk a major retaliation, it would be certain death for their very way of life.
Israel will only strike military targets, a retaliation from Iran would take innocent lives, and that would create serious backlash from the world, even if they are just a bunch of supposed hated Jews, the free world would side with Israel.

With all due respect, I'm not sure I agree Solar.  I acknowledge the price Israel will pay for failing to make a preemptive strike may be much higher than not.  However, Israel will pay a heavy price should they strike.  The Geopolitics of a preemptive strike won't be good for them.  Combined with the lack of ANY rational support from an anti-colonial US administration hell bent on eradicating any ability for future US considerations it doesn't look good for the region, let alone Israel.

While I do believe a strike is inevitable and on-the-horizon, Geopolitics alone will be damaging to Israel.  Any failure to completely eradicate Iranian nuclear capabilities with a first strike combined with interference from their "supposed" ally in the White House for follow-on strikes may make a nuclear Iran inevitable.  Should they succeed in taking out their targets (I am of the understanding this isn't likely without US support) Iran will be able to destabilize the region without nukes.

Iraq and other governments on the Arabian peninsula will be under intense pressure domestically to fall in line with Iranian pressure.  If you need an example understand the implications of the following FACT.

The reason every single nation was convinced Saddam had WMD was because Saddam deliberately attempted to make it APPEAR he had WMD's.  This was never considered a viable possibility among the various intelligence agencies.  Following Saddam's capture he was questioned intensely to reveal the location of his WMD's.  He insisted he had none.  Of course interrogators thought this a concealment.  Eventually the exhaustive searches made their existence unlikely.  It was eventually discovered why the intelligence was so wrong.  Why would Saddam deliberately attempt to make it appear as if he had WMD knowing this would risk Western retaliation?  Because he feared Iranian influence and internal destabilization more than he feared the US.  Fundamentalist intervention is guaranteed and a daily reality.  Self preserving sane US policy from this administration is tentative at best.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on October 28, 2013, 06:34:47 AM
Quote from: LibDave on October 28, 2013, 01:38:02 AM
With all due respect, I'm not sure I agree Solar.  I acknowledge the price Israel will pay for failing to make a preemptive strike may be much higher than not.  However, Israel will pay a heavy price should they strike.  The Geopolitics of a preemptive strike won't be good for them.  Combined with the lack of ANY rational support from an anti-colonial US administration hell bent on eradicating any ability for future US considerations it doesn't look good for the region, let alone Israel.
Never said they wouldn't pay a price, I said Iran would because Israel is small and civilian casualties would be inevitable.

QuoteWhile I do believe a strike is inevitable and on-the-horizon, Geopolitics alone will be damaging to Israel.  Any failure to completely eradicate Iranian nuclear capabilities with a first strike combined with interference from their "supposed" ally in the White House for follow-on strikes may make a nuclear Iran inevitable.  Should they succeed in taking out their targets (I am of the understanding this isn't likely without US support) Iran will be able to destabilize the region without nukes.
They ill need our support in some areas, like AWACS, satcom, and resupplying, other than that, they can handle this without too much loss.

QuoteIraq and other governments on the Arabian peninsula will be under intense pressure domestically to fall in line with Iranian pressure.  If you need an example understand the implications of the following FACT.
But no one knows if it will make any difference once the campaign ends.
Don't assume this will go on for more than a few days, only if Iran retaliates, will it continue and don't assume Israel will play the tit for tat game.

QuoteThe reason every single nation was convinced Saddam had WMD was because Saddam deliberately attempted to make it APPEAR he had WMD's.  This was never considered a viable possibility among the various intelligence agencies.  Following Saddam's capture he was questioned intensely to reveal the location of his WMD's.  He insisted he had none.  Of course interrogators thought this a concealment.  Eventually the exhaustive searches made their existence unlikely.  It was eventually discovered why the intelligence was so wrong.  Why would Saddam deliberately attempt to make it appear as if he had WMD knowing this would risk Western retaliation?  Because he feared Iranian influence and internal destabilization more than he feared the US.  Fundamentalist intervention is guaranteed and a daily reality.  Self preserving sane US policy from this administration is tentative at best.
So went the liberal narrative, all the while ignoring the gas attack on the Kurds.
But were supposed to swallow the story that he was just bluffing?
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: LibDave on October 28, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Quote from: Solar on October 28, 2013, 06:34:47 AM
Never said they wouldn't pay a price, I said Iran would because Israel is small and civilian casualties would be inevitable.
They ill need our support in some areas, like AWACS, satcom, and resupplying, other than that, they can handle this without too much loss.
But no one knows if it will make any difference once the campaign ends.
Don't assume this will go on for more than a few days, only if Iran retaliates, will it continue and don't assume Israel will play the tit for tat game.
So went the liberal narrative, all the while ignoring the gas attack on the Kurds.
But were supposed to swallow the story that he was just bluffing?

If you look at it from the side of the Iranian regime a retaliatory strike would be more reward than price.  IMHO the rewards would far outweigh the cost.  The Obama administration has shown NO SIGNS there would be any price to pay whatsoever.  Obama has shown the opposite, taking every opportunity to punish Israel yet ignoring and even rewarding every transgression by the Islamists.

Remember too, domestically there is much reward for the regime.  Iran HAS no liberal opposition internally as we do.  While public support in the US would wane with civilian casualties, in Iran the infliction of civilian Israeli casualties would be a boon for the regime.  With a weak if not supportive administration in the White House externally and nothing but upside internally there is only reward not cost.

As I think we all agree, such a retaliation would by necessity be entirely subversive or insurgent.  Iran does not have the capability to retaliate militarily directly.  In fact from the regimes point of view, this would be the only possible downside.  An attempt to retaliate with direct missile strikes would certainly be ineffective and would make them appear impotent.  The last thing the Iranian regime can afford is to appear weak to a populous subjugated by fear.

It's not even assured Iran COULD inflict significant civilian casualties with direct missile strikes.  If you weren't aware, Iran is COMPLETELY ringed in with anti-missile defenses.  In fact, Iranian nukes are little threat to Israel and fast approaching little threat to their neighbors through direct strategic capability.  The threat Iranian nukes pose long-term is not by direct delivery, rather it is through subversive delivery and proliferation.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: LibDave on October 28, 2013, 04:06:26 PM
Geopolitically costs for Israel would be high.  US response alone would obviously be dire.  Obama's motivations and tendencies have left little doubt he harbors ZERO good will towards Israel.  While US alliance with Israel must publicly be maintained, this is clearly only pretense on the part of the Obama administration.  Obama seeks nothing less than the diminishment if not eradication of Israel.

Remember Obama sees US influence as the major evil in the world and Israel is the epitome of US influence in the region.  Obama is an anti-colonialist and considers his father's ideology his birthright.  He does not see Islamist extremism as the problem, he sees them as the natural progression of his mission to permanently extricate the US from interference in 3rd world affairs.  In addition he has little love for the Jewish faith, seeing them as an unwelcome occupier and evil religion.

Israel cannot expect and will not receive US support for Israeli preemptive action against Iran any time soon.  I believe a recent and little noticed development will bear this out.  Jordan recently gave Israel fly-over rights to Israel due to the conflict in Syria.  Little noticed because its importance in regards to the expansion of Israeli capability to strike Syrian targets is of little impact.

It is, however, of significance in regards to Israeli capability to strike Iran.  I look to Israel stepping up attacks on the Syrian regime increasing the utilization of the airspace.  Followed by the inevitable Iranian subversive responses.  One can expect some sort of terrorist response.  This will be the trigger Israel needs to take their shot.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: LibDave on October 28, 2013, 04:16:29 PM
I believe your assessment of the impacts on the election may be spot on.  It's one of the more difficult repercussions to assess.  It will indeed depend on the outcome and what transpires.  A short campaign would definitely be preferred as it would limit the possible impact.  But should conflict escalate I'm not sure anyone enjoys the omnipotence necessary to determine the outcome with any certainty.  All good plans of mice and men oft go astray.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: AndyJackson on October 31, 2013, 08:23:53 AM
I eagerly await the stomping like I do the Super Bowl.

You can't gang up and attack / try to destroy a country multiple times, and preach their eradication 24/7/365 for 50 years, without getting your ass kicked eventually.

It's too bad that the civilians and innocents will have to go along with the bad guys, but it's not Israel's doing.

50 years of hate, threats, violence, and agitation from the muslims, arabs, and persians.  End of story.  And it deserves a massive beating.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: walkstall on October 31, 2013, 05:13:39 PM
Israel strikes Russian weapons shipment in Syria


MIKE CORDER, AP
2 hours ago


snip~
BEIRUT (AP) — Israeli warplanes attacked a shipment of Russian missiles inside a Syrian government stronghold, officials said Thursday, a development that threatened to add another volatile layer to regional tensions from the Syrian civil war.

More @

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20131031/Syria/ (http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20131031/Syria/)
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: AndyJackson on November 02, 2013, 09:49:37 AM
woot woot, first down Israel on the  islam 20 yard line.......gonna try the statue of liberty play with a nuke in the passing hand.....
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Mountainshield on November 03, 2013, 03:37:03 AM
Quote from: LibDave on October 28, 2013, 03:33:04 PM
Iran HAS no liberal opposition internally as we do.  While public support in the US would wane with civilian casualties, in Iran the infliction of civilian Israeli casualties would be a boon for the regime.

Thats not true, Iran has low national unity and much dissent, especially among young people epitomized in the green movement. This is not a country like Afghanistan where the society has been stagnant for 1000 years, but Iran have had a commercial westernized youth throughout the period under the Shah, the social implications of this period has created a youth and young adult population that far outnumber the older generations due to Iran-Iraq war. They care about liberty and want western lifestyle of good living standard.  Obama has already shown disgust and refused to acknowledge the existence of this movement, but that does mean that it is crushed. The infliction of civilian casualties would not be a boon for the regime, the Iranians are not savages, only communists are savage beasts and they Iranian leadership is communist with a islamic veil.

You keep saying Geopolitical costs, please specify the costs. The US response would be dire? What dire consequence are you referring to? A angry letter from Obama?

If Israel decide to strike Iran and only hurt military installations and bases it would destroy the Iran regime credibility in being able to defend the nation and remove the fear of the regime as they will be seen as weak and incompetent in not being able to fight back. If Israel would hit civilian iranians and only then would a "conflict" become beneficial to the iranian regime as the civilians would see Israel as the neemy just as the bay of pigs solidified Castro's regime in Cuba when he was infact fighting internal dissent up to that point.

Geopolitically the other regimes like Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia of the region would call for jihad and give hatefull speech at the same time they would congratulate Israel and shake hands in closed door bileratal meetings. I.e in Syria the Israelis and Saudis are on the same side, Saudi Arabia is the most powerfull arabian state and the most Israel friendly (not public but defacto).

Israel just attacked russian supplies and arms in Syria, but Syria did not declare war against Israel. I do not think Iran will be able to get nuclear weapons and if they will become like North korea but other nations like saudi arabia would not bow down before Iran as they would never ever use the weapons offensively.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: LibDave on November 05, 2013, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: Mountainshield on November 03, 2013, 03:37:03 AM
Thats not true, Iran has low national unity and much dissent, especially among young people epitomized in the green movement. This is not a country like Afghanistan where the society has been stagnant for 1000 years, but Iran have had a commercial westernized youth throughout the period under the Shah, the social implications of this period has created a youth and young adult population that far outnumber the older generations due to Iran-Iraq war. They care about liberty and want western lifestyle of good living standard.  Obama has already shown disgust and refused to acknowledge the existence of this movement, but that does mean that it is crushed. The infliction of civilian casualties would not be a boon for the regime, the Iranians are not savages, only communists are savage beasts and they Iranian leadership is communist with a islamic veil.

I don't see the Iranians as savages, but they do enjoy the support of Islamic radicals and the fundamentalist regime is as Islamic and radical as they come.  Those exposed to the Westernization under the Shah are not the younger generation, they are the older generation.  This segment of the older generation is without influence and control.  The younger generation you speak of has no such memory of the days of the Shah.  While there is much dissent (obviously) among the young (80% of the Iranian population is below age 25) I am unclear as to their motivations after having been heavily bombarded with radical Islamic indoctrination.

Quote from: Mountainshield on November 03, 2013, 03:37:03 AM
You keep saying Geopolitical costs, please specify the costs. The US response would be dire? What dire consequence are you referring to? A angry letter from Obama?

Obama has shown no propensity to confront radical Islam, terrorism, or any Western subversive group.  On the contrary, he sees them as his allies in his effort to take down Western capitalistic societies and end what he perceives as the major evil in the world, Western Capitalism.  Obama is an anti-colonialist.  He has stated this many times in his own writings.  He shares his "Father's Dreams" and his mission is to fulfill his father's dream to end "Western Colonialism".

Western Colonialism is no longer even based in reality as it ended for all practical purposes quite some time ago and had largely diminished even during Obama's father's lifetime.  Socialist influence has been the rule in Africa for over half a century as thriving Republicanism has taken a back seat.  Like his father Obama blames the poverty in 3rd world countries on outside Western interference instead of the true culprit, local corruption brought about by the failures of Socialism.

This is precisely why even many American's are perplexed by his actions (or should I say inactions such as Benghazi).  Many Americans mistakenly view him as a Black Liberal\Socialist.  He does not even share the typical American Black's Agenda (while he enjoys their blind naïve support).  He sees himself as a true African-American whose birthright is one of socialism.  Both his mother and father were socialists (worse, Marxist Leninists) and they went to no end exposing him to those of like political persuasion.  He wasn't even raised here.  He was raised as a radical Marxist-Leninist throughout his childhood having left the US at the age of 4.  For a large part of his life he didn't even go by the name of Barack Obama.  Returning to the name Barack Obama became a necessity as it was the name given to him at birth (his only claim to what we consider American).  He shares no ideological or nationalistic kinship with the US and he himself stated he felt out of place among American society except among those deemed societal outcasts as a young man (e.g. Bill Ayers, Salinsky, Reverend Wright, and many others).

Obama views capitalism's success resulting from the subjugation of the third world.  He seeks to take down Western Capitalism, permanently eradicating any future potential to influence world affairs, "returning the US to its rightful place as just another nation among the community of nations".  He rationalizes the obvious failures of socialism as a result of its inability to subjugate more than its fair share of the world's wealth.  He doesn't believe or understand it is the capitalism itself which is the SOURCE of the wealth.

So yes, even though there are no dire consequences for subversive enemies of the West, there ARE CONSEQUENCES for those who attempt to stand in the way of enemies of the West (such as Israel).  He has repeatedly placed Israel at great risk in response to any attempt on their part to shore up their security situation.  He views subversives and the overthrow of pro-western\capitalist governments as the natural progression of his purposeful policy to undermine Western society.  In fact, his break-neck race to undermine the financial stability of the US through deficit spending has more to do with taking down the US internally than making us socialist.  While he would like nothing more than a socialist US, being as this is likely beyond his capability, economic destruction will have to suffice.

Quote from: Mountainshield on November 03, 2013, 03:37:03 AM
If Israel decide to strike Iran and only hurt military installations and bases it would destroy the Iran regime credibility in being able to defend the nation and remove the fear of the regime as they will be seen as weak and incompetent in not being able to fight back. If Israel would hit civilian iranians and only then would a "conflict" become beneficial to the iranian regime as the civilians would see Israel as the neemy just as the bay of pigs solidified Castro's regime in Cuba when he was infact fighting internal dissent up to that point.

Geopolitically the other regimes like Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia of the region would call for jihad and give hatefull speech at the same time they would congratulate Israel and shake hands in closed door bileratal meetings. I.e in Syria the Israelis and Saudis are on the same side, Saudi Arabia is the most powerfull arabian state and the most Israel friendly (not public but defacto).

Israel just attacked russian supplies and arms in Syria, but Syria did not declare war against Israel. I do not think Iran will be able to get nuclear weapons and if they will become like North korea but other nations like saudi arabia would not bow down before Iran as they would never ever use the weapons offensively.

I agree with these last three paragraphs and your assessment of the Geo-politics of the region.  My only point of contention is your assessment of Iranian support.  True subversive strikes by Iran inside Israel against civilians might not bolster support among the pro-Western segments of Iranian society, they will bolster support among the regime's political base.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Mountainshield on November 08, 2013, 03:16:11 AM
Quote from: LibDave on November 05, 2013, 03:29:07 PM
I don't see the Iranians as savages, but they do enjoy the support of Islamic radicals and the fundamentalist regime is as Islamic and radical as they come.  Those exposed to the Westernization under the Shah are not the younger generation, they are the older generation.  This segment of the older generation is without influence and control.  The younger generation you speak of has no such memory of the days of the Shah.  While there is much dissent (obviously) among the young (80% of the Iranian population is below age 25) I am unclear as to their motivations after having been heavily bombarded with radical Islamic indoctrination.

I should have formulated myself better, what I meant is that the generations growing up under the Shah has transferred the western values and lifestyle over to their children which is what we saw with the green revolution. Like in the US the government employees, especially those in the EPA, IRS and other quasi tyrannical departments are hardcore socialist like the Revolutionary Guard in Iran is hardcore socialist, but the Iranian civilians are not hardcore socialists, and despite the islamo socialist indoctrination you saw with the green revolution that the young people are divided between the militant socialist and the western embracing youth. The green rebellion just like the white rebellion in russia was crushed by these socialists.

I agree with the rest of your post, especially regarding Obama's agenda.

As for the latter part, this is one reason I believe the US need to hold the burden of global liberty, not alone but it will have to do so disproportionately since the US is the only rival to Russia and China. And of course do so voluntarily, and by that I mean through congress and not presidential executive orders through UN resolutions.

The Green revolution would have won if the US had seized the opportunity and given the revolt arms or at least empathetic support in their fight for liberty. Even if the result would have been civil war it would be better than living under islamo-socialist oppression.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: LibDave on November 11, 2013, 09:54:57 AM
Quote from: Mountainshield on November 08, 2013, 03:16:11 AM
I should have formulated myself better, what I meant is that the generations growing up under the Shah has transferred the western values and lifestyle over to their children which is what we saw with the green revolution. Like in the US the government employees, especially those in the EPA, IRS and other quasi tyrannical departments are hardcore socialist like the Revolutionary Guard in Iran is hardcore socialist, but the Iranian civilians are not hardcore socialists, and despite the islamo socialist indoctrination you saw with the green revolution that the young people are divided between the militant socialist and the western embracing youth. The green rebellion just like the white rebellion in russia was crushed by these socialists.

I hope you are right.  Historically there is a precedent for the suppressed ideologies of the older generation being passed down by the family.  It is difficult for these tyrannical governments to completely suppress as the family structure forms a shield of sorts allowing freedom of expression on a personal level.  We saw this in the east-bloc countries of Eastern Europe.  Your knowledge of whether this is the case amongst the youth of Iran is perhaps superior to mine.  I haven't lived there in almost 40 years, and it's been half that long since I lived in the neighboring regions.
Quote from: Mountainshield on November 08, 2013, 03:16:11 AM
I agree with the rest of your post, especially regarding Obama's agenda.

As for the latter part, this is one reason I believe the US need to hold the burden of global liberty, not alone but it will have to do so disproportionately since the US is the only rival to Russia and China. And of course do so voluntarily, and by that I mean through congress and not presidential executive orders through UN resolutions.

The Green revolution would have won if the US had seized the opportunity and given the revolt arms or at least empathetic support in their fight for liberty. Even if the result would have been civil war it would be better than living under islamo-socialist oppression.
I agree completely with this policy statement and your assessment of Obama's failure to support the Green revolution.  It was a missed opportunity of immense proportion.  But Obama see's it from the other side, as his loyalties aren't those most would assume of a POTUS.  He sees it as narrowly averting the rise of liberty, democracy and capitalism in the 3rd world countries of the Middle East.

I can't help but toot my own horn here.  I made this initial post a week before any mention of the Middle East in the MSM.  And my assessment of Obama's motivations and what his reaction would be were also SPOT ON.  The negotiations with Iran to temporarily lift the sanctions are absolutely the most ludicrous and destructive foreign policy one could imagine (provided you are actually developing a foreign policy intent on furthering US interests or the interests of freedom, democracy, and capitalism).  The announcement negotiations were taking place ALONE serves to prevent Israel from taking appropriate action as it would make them look bad.  Striking before negotiations can continue would make them appear to be the aggressor and unwilling to reach a peaceful settlement.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: LibDave on November 11, 2013, 10:02:07 AM
If Obama compounds the damage with an actual agreement to lift the sanctions (and I am convinced he will) Obama's loyalties will be clear.  It would be laughable if not so tragic.  It's like having a subversive in the White House conducting foreign policy in a manner diametrically opposing the furtherance of the country he professes to promote.  "Gee, the sanctions are working....  Lets lift them temporarily to give the radical Islamic Iranian regime a breather.  This way we know they will have to stamina to complete their mission to destabilize the Middle East with nuclear armaments and guarantee the destruction of rational Western influences towards peace."  It's just nuts to even entertain the idea of negotiations.  Treasonous!!!
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Egg on December 13, 2013, 01:11:06 PM
I know I'm coming in late to this discussion, LibDave, but I generally do not expect Israel to do an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities.  A number of reasons:

- Many sites are so deep underground they can't do it, unless they use US bunker buster missiles.  The US is against such an attack at this time and is very unlikely to sell those missiles to the IDF;

- Even with this new agreement allowing inspections, there may likely be other sites nobody knows about, i.e., the IDF wouldn't even know where to strike even if it wanted to.  A strike is either an all or nothing kind of thing;

- Many higher up Israelis are against such an attack, including many retired IDF generals and intelligence types.  They simply see too much downside to such an attack (like a massive war) while there being very little upside;

- All that such an attack could do is possibly post-pone an Israeli bomb.  Only a full invasion and occupation - I mean to say an honest to God, real, bloody, years-long war leading to the complete control of Iran by outside nations - could do the job, and there is nobody with enough soldiers or will power to do that. 

In other words, if we're really, really luckly Iran is going to come out of the cold and really undo its nuclear weapons program, or the world is going to have to learn to live with a nuclear Iran.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Cryptic Bert on December 13, 2013, 07:58:12 PM
It's a moot point. Iran now has in their eyes a legitimate nuclear program and the rest of the region will become nuclear. Thanks to years of naive policies culminating is Obama's complete and total surrender.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on December 14, 2013, 05:09:36 AM
Of all the places on earth, Israel is the most vulnerable, with a Nation next door that's sworn to obliterate your complete existence, refuses to recognize your right to exist?

Yeah, Israel will stand by and do nothing. :rolleyes:
Get ready for 1967 revisited, only this time? I hope Israel keeps every inch of land they seize.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Egg on December 14, 2013, 08:13:13 AM
I don't see how Israel could go in on the ground alone.  Iran is huge.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on December 14, 2013, 08:25:26 AM
Quote from: Egg on December 14, 2013, 08:13:13 AM
I don't see how Israel could go in on the ground alone.  Iran is huge.
Who said anything about a ground invasion? :biggrin:
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: the outlaw mortarman on December 14, 2013, 09:22:24 AM
Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites? One can hope.

:popcorn:
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Montesquieu on December 16, 2013, 02:08:42 AM
No, and here's why:

Israel cannot wipe out Iran's nuclear capability and it can't even be attempted without US assistance. The current US gov't will not lend it.

Second, Israel must be fully prepared to accept full scale war, which Iran will no doubt respond with. The intent of such a strike will be predicated on a demonstration to Iran that Israel wants to initiate a war over the issue. Israelis are tired of war, and Iran is far more powerful now than any traditional enemies from the past.

Third, global energy interests are fixated on that region. Be prepared for $6-7 gas at your local pump, maybe $8 in California, or closer to what Europe pays.

Fourth, it will be a PR disaster, and while that usually does not matter, absent US support will be devastating if Israel is faced with Iranian missiles.

Of course circumstances can change. If Israel is certain of an existential threat, i.e. Iran is for certain producing bombs and mounting them on missiles, it will do what it can even if only unilaterally.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: mdgiles on December 16, 2013, 08:08:32 AM
Quote from: Egg on December 13, 2013, 01:11:06 PM
I know I'm coming in late to this discussion, LibDave, but I generally do not expect Israel to do an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities.  A number of reasons:

- Many sites are so deep underground they can't do it, unless they use US bunker buster missiles.  The US is against such an attack at this time and is very unlikely to sell those missiles to the IDF;
Do you seriously believe the Israelis couldn't build their own bunker busters?
Quote- Even with this new agreement allowing inspections, there may likely be other sites nobody knows about, i.e., the IDF wouldn't even know where to strike even if it wanted to.  A strike is either an all or nothing kind of thing;
The Israelis probably have the best intelligence apparatus in that part of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people working in these plants weren't israelis.
Quote- Many higher up Israelis are against such an attack, including many retired IDF generals and intelligence types.  They simply see too much downside to such an attack (like a massive war) while there being very little upside;
And they see no downside to letting the Mad Mullahs, have nukes. Israeli politicians my disagree, but - except for the radical left - none of them have a death wish.
Quote- All that such an attack could do is possibly post-pone an Israeli bomb.  Only a full invasion and occupation - I mean to say an honest to God, real, bloody, years-long war leading to the complete control of Iran by outside nations - could do the job, and there is nobody with enough soldiers or will power to do that.
The Israelis already have over 200 nuclear weapons, and have had them for years. Iran on the other hand is still trying to build one. And you don't have to invade Iran, to remove their ability to build nukes. You're giving the usual excuses: "doing something might prove dangerous".
QuoteIn other words, if we're really, really luckly Iran is going to come out of the cold and really undo its nuclear weapons program, or the world is going to have to learn to live with a nuclear Iran.
I prefer not to depend on "luck", when you're dealing with a group of eight century apocalyptics. 
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on December 16, 2013, 08:13:53 AM
Quote from: Montesquieu on December 16, 2013, 02:08:42 AM
No, and here's why:


Explain how you know this to be fact, because by all accounts, Israel has the capability to level Iran, and yes, we gave them bunker busters.
So without proof, the rest of your post is pure speculation and opinion.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: mdgiles on December 16, 2013, 08:18:42 AM
Quote from: Solar on December 16, 2013, 08:13:53 AM
Explain how you know this to be fact, because by all accounts, Israel has the capability to level Iran, and yes, we gave them bunker busters.
So without proof, the rest of your post is pure speculation and opinion.
All we had to do was give Israel ONE bunker buster. In six months they'll be making their own.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: walkstall on December 16, 2013, 08:24:09 AM
Quote from: mdgiles on December 16, 2013, 08:18:42 AM
All we had to do was give Israel ONE bunker buster. In six months they'll be making their own.

I personally don't think it would take that long.  when Israel has decided to do something they don't stand around.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on December 16, 2013, 08:34:29 AM
Quote from: mdgiles on December 16, 2013, 08:18:42 AM
All we had to do was give Israel ONE bunker buster. In six months they'll be making their own.
And that we did, and Israel acted.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Egg on December 16, 2013, 08:44:35 AM
Quote from: Solar on December 14, 2013, 08:25:26 AM
Who said anything about a ground invasion? :biggrin:

I don't see how any nation, Israel or the United States, could be able to ge the job done with only air power.  The outspoken retired IDF generals have made that pretty plain, as well as the US generals.  If you're suggesting a pre-emptive nuclear attack, expect the rates of cancer deaths to soar in Israel after such an attack. 
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on December 17, 2013, 06:14:34 AM
Quote from: Egg on December 16, 2013, 08:44:35 AM
I don't see how any nation, Israel or the United States, could be able to ge the job done with only air power.  The outspoken retired IDF generals have made that pretty plain, as well as the US generals.  If you're suggesting a pre-emptive nuclear attack, expect the rates of cancer deaths to soar in Israel after such an attack.
Why would you assume Israel would want to occupy their land?
Taking out Iran's air force could be done in short time along with their air defenses and in no time, crippling Iran's ability to protect itself.
You give way to much credibility to the Iranians military, a military supported by outdated Russian tech.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Egg on December 17, 2013, 08:31:35 AM
I'm not saying Israel would want to occupy Iran, but that a land invasion would be needed to ensure that they have in fact destroyed their nuclear weapons program.  Air power alone would not do the job. 
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: mdgiles on December 17, 2013, 11:38:05 AM
Quote from: Egg on December 17, 2013, 08:31:35 AM
I'm not saying Israel would want to occupy Iran, but that a land invasion would be needed to ensure that they have in fact destroyed their nuclear weapons program.  Air power alone would not do the job.
Why not? You have heard of smart weapons haven't you. Is Iran rich enough to keep rebuilding the facilities that the Israelis destroy? So who are the going to get the money from?
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: walkstall on December 17, 2013, 12:05:28 PM
Quote from: mdgiles on December 17, 2013, 11:38:05 AM
Why not? You have heard of smart weapons haven't you. Is Iran rich enough to keep rebuilding the facilities that the Israelis destroy? So who are the going to get the money from?

b o for the next 3 years.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: TboneAgain on December 17, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
Quote from: Solar on December 17, 2013, 06:14:34 AM
Why would you assume Israel would want to occupy their land?
Taking out Iran's air force could be done in short time along with their air defenses and in no time, crippling Iran's ability to protect itself.
You give way to much credibility to the Iranians military, a military supported by outdated Russian tech.

Their military tech is indeed largely outdated, but I wouldn't characterize it as "Russian," or even mostly Russian. With the exception of its tank fleet, in which Russian T-72s have dominated the ranks, the Iranian military fields hardware obtained from many other sources, including most significantly the US, obtained pre-1979. Iran's air force depends on American-made F-14s, F-5s, and F-4s (roughly 200 planes total) to an extent far greater than it does on the few MiG-29s (40 planes) in its inventory. In recent years, Iran has begun purchasing military hardware from China, as well as updating and maintaining its inventory of older -- but still quite effective -- American hardware using Chinese-made parts. Iran is also developing a domestic arms manufacturing complex, actually turning out its own front-line tanks as intended replacements for the aging Soviet hardware. (/nitpick)

Nevertheless, I would agree that Iran would be quickly and decisively defeated in a conflict with any likely enemy in the region, especially the US or Israel. If Israel was truly serious, the conflict would be over in a week or less.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on December 17, 2013, 12:44:38 PM
Quote from: TboneAgain on December 17, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
Their military tech is indeed largely outdated, but I wouldn't characterize it as "Russian," or even mostly Russian. With the exception of its tank fleet, in which Russian T-72s have dominated the ranks, the Iranian military fields hardware obtained from many other sources, including most significantly the US, obtained pre-1979. Iran's air force depends on American-made F-14s, F-5s, and F-4s (roughly 200 planes total) to an extent far greater than it does on the few MiG-29s (40 planes) in its inventory. In recent years, Iran has begun purchasing military hardware from China, as well as updating and maintaining its inventory of older -- but still quite effective -- American hardware using Chinese-made parts. Iran is also developing a domestic arms manufacturing complex, actually turning out its own front-line tanks as intended replacements for the aging Soviet hardware. (/nitpick)

Nevertheless, I would agree that Iran would be quickly and decisively defeated in a conflict with any likely enemy in the region, especially the US or Israel. If Israel was truly serious, the conflict would be over in a week or less.
Yeah, 24 hrs 90% complete, followup by 72 hour end. Iran would be literally devastated and ripe for the picking from their other enemies.
Something I'm sure they've considered.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Egg on December 17, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: mdgiles on December 17, 2013, 11:38:05 AM
Why not? You have heard of smart weapons haven't you. Is Iran rich enough to keep rebuilding the facilities that the Israelis destroy? So who are the going to get the money from?

Yes, I have heard of smart weapons.  And I've heard of bunker busters.  But we're not talking about Iraq's or Syria's old nuclear weapons sites, but ones buried far underground. 

Even the top of the line US bunker busters can only reach so far underground, and there are at least two sites (Fordor and another one whose name escapes me) which are too far underground for them to reach. Further, there is a high likelihood that there are other sites that are simply not known, and it would take a ground force to find and destroy them.

I would not be surprised if the IDF went after those sites it can attack, and good for them.  But it won't completely end the crisis and would precipitate a very serious regional war.     

Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Mountainshield on December 18, 2013, 07:17:01 AM
Saudi Arabia hates Iran more than the Israelis do, I seriously doubt Saudia Arabia would let Iran start a new regional conflict against Israel in which they would emerge stronger and more powerful. Even though a direct confrontation or intervention by Saudi Arabia is out of the question they would be foolish to not use their diplomatic power in the region to keep other states from joining the war on Iran's side. If it's a 1vs1 war then Israel would win easy simply because they are fighting for their survival whereas Iranian people are fighting at the behest of their Mullah overlords to the detriment of their own standard of living and indeed life. Only the revolutionary guard would dance their way across the minefields, the citizenry I predict/hope would rise up again and seize the opportunity to destroy what should never have come to pass in 1979.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on December 18, 2013, 07:48:47 AM
Quote from: Mountainshield on December 18, 2013, 07:17:01 AM
Saudi Arabia hates Iran more than the Israelis do, I seriously doubt Saudia Arabia would let Iran start a new regional conflict against Israel in which they would emerge stronger and more powerful. Even though a direct confrontation or intervention by Saudi Arabia is out of the question they would be foolish to not use their diplomatic power in the region to keep other states from joining the war on Iran's side. If it's a 1vs1 war then Israel would win easy simply because they are fighting for their survival whereas Iranian people are fighting at the behest of their Mullah overlords to the detriment of their own standard of living and indeed life. Only the revolutionary guard would dance their way across the minefields, the citizenry I predict/hope would rise up again and seize the opportunity to destroy what should never have come to pass in 1979.
Very true, enemies make strange bedfellows.

Report: "Israel and Saudi Arabia will work together in case of an Iran attack"
Mossad agents met with senior level Saudi officials to formulate a joint attack on Iran, in case the talks between the world powers and Iran fail, the Sunday Times reported. "The Saudis are decisive in confronting Iran and the Israelis are ready to provide the help they need," a senior level official told the newspaper.
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israel-and-the-middle-east/report-%E2%80%9Cisrael-and-saudi-arabia-will-work-together-in-case-of-an-iran-attack%E2%80%9D-2333 (http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israel-and-the-middle-east/report-%E2%80%9Cisrael-and-saudi-arabia-will-work-together-in-case-of-an-iran-attack%E2%80%9D-2333)
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Mountainshield on December 18, 2013, 09:16:29 AM
Quote from: Solar on December 18, 2013, 07:48:47 AM
Very true, enemies make strange bedfellows.

Report: "Israel and Saudi Arabia will work together in case of an Iran attack"
Mossad agents met with senior level Saudi officials to formulate a joint attack on Iran, in case the talks between the world powers and Iran fail, the Sunday Times reported. "The Saudis are decisive in confronting Iran and the Israelis are ready to provide the help they need," a senior level official told the newspaper.
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israel-and-the-middle-east/report-%E2%80%9Cisrael-and-saudi-arabia-will-work-together-in-case-of-an-iran-attack%E2%80%9D-2333 (http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israel-and-the-middle-east/report-%E2%80%9Cisrael-and-saudi-arabia-will-work-together-in-case-of-an-iran-attack%E2%80%9D-2333)

This forum really need a "like" or "agree" button for members.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Egg on December 18, 2013, 09:49:38 AM
Saudi Arabia and Israel fighting on the same side of a war together.  Who'da thunk? 
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: moxen on February 26, 2014, 06:16:52 PM
hi,
this is a real idea in jew-arab diplomates but the costs are too much, the reports say that iran have ballestic missils with 2k kms at least and this means israel and s-arabia can dameged from iranian's reply, and at last, the equation between the prices they have to pay and what they really can gain tells us the probablity of an invasion to islamic republic  of iran
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: red_dirt on February 27, 2014, 10:17:06 AM
I repost this strictly for information purposes.
---------------repost----------------------------
Looks like It's coming together???....they want to put J'sem under international control (Jacob Prasch speculated that this would be how they would "do it")....... and note the timeline - 29th April for the framework and then 2-3 yrs from then for security arrangements to be fixed etc.
Merkel is in Israel now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obama Pledges Declaration Of Palestinian State In 2014
February 26, 2014 | Debbie Smith
Share this article
     

A senior Palestinian negotiator told WND reporter Aaron Klien that the Palestinian Authority has received a pledge from the Obama administration that by the end of 2014, the administration will issue an official declaration presenting general highlights of a Palestinian state.

Other sources are also reporting this leaked story.
According to the negotiator, the administration continues to work toward a preliminary outline of the deal by April. The current plan calls for a phased implementation of increased Palestinian authority during a three to five year period.
Eastern sections of Jerusalem would come under PA control, although the exact territories have yet to be defined.
Israel would be defined as "occupiers" in the Jordan Valley territory as well as in The West Bank, the negotiator stated.
U.S. Secretary of State, John Kerry, is calling for an international administrative mandate to control Holy Sites in east Jerusalem. The mandate could include a coalition of the Vatican and Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey.
Speculation over the role of the Vatican increased this week after a secretive meeting took place between the Jerusalem Municipality, The Prime Minister's Office and senior Catholic officials. The Catholic delegation is reported to have pressed for control over the compound that houses the traditional "Hall of the Last Supper" - with some rumors that such a move could be linked in anticipation of Pope Francis visit to Israel in May.
It is expected that any proposal for a Palestinian state would be a temporary fix, lasting two to three years to allow for security arrangements to be ironed out between the Israeli's and the Palestinians.
Recently, Israel's Defense Minister Moshe Ya 'alon characterized John Kerry's pursuit of this deal as an "incomprehensible obsession". Ya'alon has been harshly critical of Kerry's" persistent effort's to force Israel to surrender its land.
Perhaps Kerry's "obsession" is due to statements by PA President Mahmoud Abbas suggesting that he will not negotiate past the April 29th deadline, if a framework agreement is not achieved.,
Currently, major sticking points between the Israeli's and Palestinians are; borders, Jerusalem, return of Palestinian refugees, IDF presence in the West Bank, and the PA's refusal to recognize Jewish statehood.
Nearly 3000 years ago, the prophet Joel under Divine inspiration recorded these words of warning for just such a time. "For behold in those days and at that time, when I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations, and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there on account of my people, My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; they have also divided up my land."
The Bible is very clear on this matter; the Lord will judge all nations who divide his land, Israel
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: kevmo on March 20, 2014, 10:39:02 PM
If I were Israel, I wouldn't do an overt strike.  I would do a suitcase nuke in the heart of the Iranian nuke project and let them all think it was an accident.  :wink:   Let Iran's neighbors clean up the mess and see just what it means to enter nukes into the fray. 
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: CatholicCrusader on May 18, 2014, 04:42:32 AM
Quote from: kevmo on March 20, 2014, 10:39:02 PM
If I were Israel, I wouldn't do an overt strike.  I would do a suitcase nuke in the heart of the Iranian nuke project and let them all think it was an accident.  :wink:   Let Iran's neighbors clean up the mess and see just what it means to enter nukes into the fray.
Good idea. BUT: I think that the fallout can be analyzed in such a way that they can actually determine the source of the uranium or plutonium right down to the reactor and the date.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: red_dirt on May 23, 2014, 10:30:07 AM
Black Market has plenty of Russian fuel, or did.
Still, I judge the idea a little extreme. Maybe I am too soft. Hard to
believe.  But isn't that stooping to the level of Islam?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: kevmo on June 15, 2014, 05:17:26 PM
Quote from: CatholicCrusader on May 18, 2014, 04:42:32 AM
Good idea. BUT: I think that the fallout can be analyzed in such a way that they can actually determine the source of the uranium or plutonium right down to the reactor and the date.
Since the explosion would take place right in the center of the Iranian nuke project, the fallout would contain Iranian fissionable material.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: kevmo on June 15, 2014, 05:21:24 PM
Quote from: red_dirt on May 23, 2014, 10:30:07 AM
Black Market has plenty of Russian fuel, or did.
Still, I judge the idea a little extreme. Maybe I am too soft. Hard to
believe.  But isn't that stooping to the level of Islam?  :popcorn:
There are reasons why I'm not in charge.      :wink:
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: Solar on June 15, 2014, 05:30:21 PM
Quote from: kevmo on June 15, 2014, 05:21:24 PM
There are reasons why I'm not in charge.      :wink:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Same here!
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: quiller on June 29, 2014, 04:51:19 AM
Quote from: red_dirt on May 23, 2014, 10:30:07 AM
Black Market has plenty of Russian fuel, or did.
Still, I judge the idea a little extreme. Maybe I am too soft. Hard to
believe.  But isn't that stooping to the level of Islam?  :popcorn:

No, it is pest control, broadly applied. After 9/11, I haven't got one shred of patience with the animals of Allah.
Title: Re: Will Israel make a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear sites?
Post by: CG6468 on June 29, 2014, 09:51:27 AM
Quote from: quiller on June 29, 2014, 04:51:19 AMNo, it is pest control, broadly applied. After 9/11, I haven't got one shred of patience with the animals of Allah.

Nor do I.