Author Topic: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?  (Read 8379 times)

tbone0106

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We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« on: June 28, 2012, 09:19:27 PM »
Here's a hot one, if you'll pardon the pun.

Japan was for all intents and purposes defeated before August 1945. The Japanese Navy no longer existed, and the Japanese Army had nowhere to march to. But the Japanese -- as was their custom -- would not say 'uncle.'

Was there a path to Allied victory without the bomb, or did Hiroshima and Nagasaki have to happen?

Offline Solar

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2012, 09:26:24 PM »
Japanese and American historians agree, that more lives were saved on both sides by use of the bomb, as opposed to a prolonged war and I agree.
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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2012, 09:28:30 PM »
Here's a hot one, if you'll pardon the pun.

Japan was for all intents and purposes defeated before August 1945. The Japanese Navy no longer existed, and the Japanese Army had nowhere to march to. But the Japanese -- as was their custom -- would not say 'uncle.'

Was there a path to Allied victory without the bomb, or did Hiroshima and Nagasaki have to happen?


There was a plan but that what cost in lives before the plan would work.  Yes it cost the Japanese but the Bomb saved allied lives.
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tbone0106

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2012, 09:31:01 PM »
Japanese and American historians agree, that more lives were saved on both sides by use of the bomb, as opposed to a prolonged war and I agree.

Ah, but what is the standard by which such things are measured? I don't disagree, but I'm asking -- is that how it's measured? We killed something over 200,000 Japanese people, many of whom had nothing to do with the war, with just two bombs. I'm not saying it was wrong or right, but how do we justify that?

Offline Solar

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2012, 09:35:05 PM »
Ah, but what is the standard by which such things are measured? I don't disagree, but I'm asking -- is that how it's measured? We killed something over 200,000 Japanese people, many of whom had nothing to do with the war, with just two bombs. I'm not saying it was wrong or right, but how do we justify that?
Or....we could have dropped 50 thousand fire bombs and done the same with prolonged suffering.
Believe it or not, the bomb was more humane.
Not to mention the fact, that many of us might not be here today had the war continued.

The downside? Japan didn't take Hawaii and the results are a Marxist in the WH. :rolleyes:
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tbone0106

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 09:37:29 PM »
Or....we could have dropped 50 thousand fire bombs and done the same with prolonged suffering.
Believe it or not, the bomb was more humane.
Not to mention the fact, that many of us might not be here today had the war continued.

The downside? Japan didn't take Hawaii and the results are a Marxist in the WH. :rolleyes:

Yeah, right. Now he'd be the boy-emperor of Japan, divinity in a Lexus, holiness on the cheap.  :tounge: :tounge:

Offline CubaLibre

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 05:32:11 AM »
WWII was messy and ugly, but an invasion of Japan would have made it even messier and uglier. To the Japanese, seeing their homeland invaded would have made them up their efforts. Think Iraq in 2004.

Offline Shooterman

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 06:48:10 AM »
WWII was messy and ugly, but an invasion of Japan would have made it even messier and uglier. To the Japanese, seeing their homeland invaded would have made them up their efforts. Think Iraq in 2004.

To up ones efforts, one must also have the means of upping those efforts. They had gone to war to save their routes to raw materials. By the time of the bombs, the homeland of the Japs was basically helpless.

I also believe the use of the bombs was more political than strategic.
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Offline kramarat

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 06:58:40 AM »
Ah, but what is the standard by which such things are measured? I don't disagree, but I'm asking -- is that how it's measured? We killed something over 200,000 Japanese people, many of whom had nothing to do with the war, with just two bombs. I'm not saying it was wrong or right, but how do we justify that?

War is ugly. People die, and the homeland of the people that started the war, is not off limits.

This is our justification:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pearl.htm

Offline Shooterman

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 08:01:02 AM »
War is ugly. People die, and the homeland of the people that started the war, is not off limits.

Except under the just war theory.

Quote
This is our justification:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pearl.htm

Moral relativism is usually preached against by conservatives, Kram, yet we are attributing a strategic strike against military targets with the incineration of 200 thousand Japanese. I have no love lost for the Nips, as they tried their damnedest to kill my Dad. It is even true the bastards were merciless against the peoples of the Western Rim, but I would suggest no more so than we were against the Plains Indians.
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Offline kramarat

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 08:23:52 AM »
Except under the just war theory.

Moral relativism is usually preached against by conservatives, Kram, yet we are attributing a strategic strike against military targets with the incineration of 200 thousand Japanese. I have no love lost for the Nips, as they tried their damnedest to kill my Dad. It is even true the bastards were merciless against the peoples of the Western Rim, but I would suggest no more so than we were against the Plains Indians.

I'm not really preaching, but attempting to put myself in the place of the people that made the decision. Sure they attacked military targets,
but we weren't at war with them.

In the years leading up to World War II, Japan became the first power to attack civilians from the air. In 1932, Japanese warplanes bombed a worker district in Shanghai, China, an incident that produced worldwide outrage. The outrage did not stop Japan from bombing civilian areas of other Chinese cities.

Right or wrong, bombing civilian targets had become quite common by the time we dropped the atom bombs.

http://crf-usa.org/america-responds-to-terrorism/firestorms-the-bombing-of-civilians

Offline Solar

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 08:32:12 AM »
Except under the just war theory.

Moral relativism is usually preached against by conservatives, Kram, yet we are attributing a strategic strike against military targets with the incineration of 200 thousand Japanese. I have no love lost for the Nips, as they tried their damnedest to kill my Dad. It is even true the bastards were merciless against the peoples of the Western Rim, but I would suggest no more so than we were against the Plains Indians.
Difference being, The Emperor was the religious leader, much in the way muscum follow their leader, this makes the entire population the enemy.
It's also the reason the Emperor was relegated to figurehead. 
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Offline mdgiles

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 08:37:24 AM »
To up ones efforts, one must also have the means of upping those efforts. They had gone to war to save their routes to raw materials. By the time of the bombs, the homeland of the Japs was basically helpless.

I also believe the use of the bombs was more political than strategic.
As Allied troops got closer and closer to Japan, the casualties began to get worse and worse. That was the Japanese plan, to bleed the allies until the negotiated. They had something on the order of 10,000 kamikazes hidden in caves. They would have taken off and flown against an Allied fleet that had to sit there as targets. They had just moved an entire army from Korea to Kyushu. They were teaching women and children suicide tactics - which would have given allied troops no choice except to shoot first and ask questions later. The softening up process before an invasion would have meant the destruction of the Japanese transportation system - which would have meant famine in Japan's cities. What the bombs did was demonstrate the utter helplessness of the Japanese. One bomber, one bomb, one city - and the Japanese knew we had hundreds of bombers, and didn't know how many bombs we had. Whatever the reason for dropping them, dropping the bombs was good sense.
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Offline Shooterman

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 08:41:25 AM »
Difference being, The Emperor was the religious leader, much in the way muscum follow their leader, this makes the entire population the enemy.
It's also the reason the Emperor was relegated to figurehead.

Still not the same, Solar, in my opinion. Hirohito was the boy emperor, but the power really was in the hands of the militarist, mostly the Army that still embraced the old school of the Sumarai. Yamamoto was probably the only sane one in the crowd and he was Navy.
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Offline mdgiles

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Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 08:52:46 AM »
Understand Hiroshima was the headquarters of the Japanese Army Group charged with the defense of Kyushu. IIRC, the bomb went off over a corner of the headquarters parade ground. Nagasaki was THE major port in Kyushu through which supplies were going to Japanese troops there. If the Japanese militarists felt bad about their people being incinerated, they could have stopped the fighting at any time. I do not understand why the US should feel bad about using every weapon they could lay their hands on, in a war the other guy started. If you don't want the other guy to use every weapon in his arsenal on you, don't start a war with the other guy.
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