The Worst Miscalculation Of World War II

Started by tbone0106, June 24, 2012, 09:52:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

mdgiles

QuoteI think one paradox about Pearl Harbor that is seldom commented upon is the (to me) obvious fact that the Japs showed up with aircraft carriers (the same ones they lost six months later at Midway) and proved for all the world to see that the age of battleships was over. And they did so by sinking... battleships. There were three carriers attached to our Pacific Fleet at the time, and despite continuous, real-time intelligence provided by Japanese agents and sympathizers in Hawaii, the attack went in KNOWING that no carriers were in the harbor.
The Japanese had a battleship fixation. It's why they put tremendous resources into building the super battleships Yamato and Musashi, when the resources could have gone into building more carriers. The Japanese were desperate to show the world they were a great power, and in doing so lost all strategic, tactical and logistic sense.

"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

TboneAgain

Quote from: mdgiles on May 16, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
The Japanese had a battleship fixation. It's why they put tremendous resources into building the super battleships Yamato and Musashi, when the resources could have gone into building more carriers. The Japanese were desperate to show the world they were a great power, and in doing so lost all strategic, tactical and logistic sense.

You're right, but why? I guess I'm searching for logic where maybe there isn't any.

The Japs constantly, endlessly -- even after their war was obviously lost -- tried to stage that "one big naval shootout" that would destroy the US Navy (or the Imperial Fleet). Only a fixation on battleships and battle cruisers would support such silliness.

When nations wage war, I look for logic. I can't find it in the Japanese approach to WWII.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Solar

Quote from: TboneAgain on May 16, 2013, 07:35:05 PM
You're right, but why? I guess I'm searching for logic where maybe there isn't any.

The Japs constantly, endlessly -- even after their war was obviously lost -- tried to stage that "one big naval shootout" that would destroy the US Navy (or the Imperial Fleet). Only a fixation on battleships and battle cruisers would support such silliness.

When nations wage war, I look for logic. I can't find it in the Japanese approach to WWII.
I watched a special on their behemoth and how and why they were built, it had everything to do with pride and honor.
Sometimes there just isn't any logic to be found where emotion clouds ones view.

Kind of like the mindset of a lib.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

TboneAgain

Quote from: Solar on May 16, 2013, 08:24:14 PM
I watched a special on their behemoth and how and why they were built, it had everything to do with pride and honor.
Sometimes there just isn't any logic to be found where emotion clouds ones view.

Kind of like the mindset of a lib.

It seems that the lesson the Japanese taught the world on 12/7/41 was completely lost on... them.

Their primary purpose in attacking Midway in 1942 was not the subjugation of the island outpost, but the luring out of the US Pacific Fleet for that 'One Big Battle.' Yes, they sent the same carrier complement that was so successful at Pearl Harbor, but the primary reason for them being there was to soften up the slender garrison on Midway Island itself to accommodate the occupation troops on the battleships, cruisers, and other capital ships in the secondary group -- the ones that never entered the battle. It was the occupation of the island that was supposed to bring our navy out of Pearl for the Big Fight.

So much for that idea...  :tounge:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

mdgiles

Mahan. The Japanese worshiped Mahan - and he was very wrong - not a single war was ever settled by "One Big Battle". Even after Nelson sank much of the Frandco-Spanish Fleet the Napoleonic wars continued for a further 10 Years. "Those distant storm tossed ships upon which the Grand Army never looked, stood between it and dominion of the world" - is wonderful prose, but false. in reality most of the Grand Armee actually died in the snows of Russia. What was left of it was finally beaten by Wellington and Blucher at Waterloo. Had the Japanese not been infatuated with Mahan, they might have given more thought to logistics - and especially for an island nation - anti submarine warfare and shipping protection.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

TboneAgain

Giles, I'm a student of history, after my own method, but I've never heard of "Mahan." Can you throw me a reference or two?
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Solar

Quote from: TboneAgain on May 17, 2013, 07:52:07 PM
Giles, I'm a student of history, after my own method, but I've never heard of "Mahan." Can you throw me a reference or two?

USS Mahan is an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer ...
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

TboneAgain

Quote from: Solar on May 17, 2013, 09:32:00 PM
USS Mahan is an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer ...

I doubt if the Japanese worshipped a US Navy destroyer.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Solar

Quote from: TboneAgain on May 18, 2013, 07:01:45 PM
I doubt if the Japanese worshipped a US Navy destroyer.
Tell that to Md, I only answered because you asked.

The Japanese had an arrogance built on pride in superiority that their race alone was enough to defeat any military. (Asian egocentric)
This arrogance came from worship of the Emperor, whom they believe to be be a God.

Drive is one thing, but when you believe you are blessed by God, that of death is honor, then one takes on a feeling of invincibility, as in the Kamikaze and sacrificing ones life is of the highest honor.

What I remember and what I've read is this arrogance transcended intellect, those in power felt they were smarter and better than those expendable peons below them and didn't listen, it's why they spent so much time and treasure on behemoth battleships that never saw combat sacrificed their own people as flying bombs. 
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

mdgiles

Quote from: TboneAgain on May 17, 2013, 07:52:07 PM
Giles, I'm a student of history, after my own method, but I've never heard of "Mahan." Can you throw me a reference or two?
Sure. Alfred Thayer Mahan. Here's the wiki entry. It's fairly accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Thayer_Mahan
Pay special attention to the section on Japan.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Travis Bickle

One of the worst: Sending American soldiers into battle in the Hurtgen Forest.

The Hürtgen Forest cost the U.S. 1st Army at least 33,000 killed and incapacitated, including both combat and noncombat losses;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_H%C3%BCrtgen_Forest

My grandfather fought there, and was terribly wounded there.

mdgiles

Quote from: Travis Bickle on May 24, 2013, 09:02:12 AM
One of the worst: Sending American soldiers into battle in the Hurtgen Forest.

The Hürtgen Forest cost the U.S. 1st Army at least 33,000 killed and incapacitated, including both combat and noncombat losses;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_H%C3%BCrtgen_Forest

My grandfather fought there, and was terribly wounded there.
I've always wonder why an Army which had already invented both the Amphibious Tractor and the DUKW, always seemed to consider a river such a barrier?
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

TboneAgain

Quote from: mdgiles on May 29, 2013, 04:00:52 PM
I've always wonder why an Army which had already invented both the Amphibious Tractor and the DUKW, always seemed to consider a river such a barrier?

In the ETO, there are at least two obvious reasons.

First is the matter of simply getting any sort of boat, much less a DUKW or an amphtrac to where it needs to be. Books have been written about the immense transportation problems, especially after the breakout from the hedgerows in summer 1944. The famed Red Ball Express was a shoddy, makeshift excuse for logistical planning. It barely managed to deliver gasoline and food, and certainly had no accommodations for boats of any description.

Second is the fundamental difference between dropping a boat in a relatively still ocean for a straight run into an invasion beach vs. dropping the same boat in a river that varies from shallow and still (usually) along the banks to deep and fast-flowing down the middle.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

mdgiles

Quote from: TboneAgain on May 30, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
In the ETO, there are at least two obvious reasons.

First is the matter of simply getting any sort of boat, much less a DUKW or an amphtrac to where it needs to be. Books have been written about the immense transportation problems, especially after the breakout from the hedgerows in summer 1944. The famed Red Ball Express was a shoddy, makeshift excuse for logistical planning. It barely managed to deliver gasoline and food, and certainly had no accommodations for boats of any description.

Second is the fundamental difference between dropping a boat in a relatively still ocean for a straight run into an invasion beach vs. dropping the same boat in a river that varies from shallow and still (usually) along the banks to deep and fast-flowing down the middle.
Okay with most of what you said; BUT, "relatively still ocean"? Spent 10 years in, what they used to call "The Suck" (that's the Marine Corps, for the uninitiated). Got a laugh out of that. Same laugh I get every time I see troops leaping out of Huey helicopters, in EVERY documentary on the Vietnam War. Two tours, and I think I got on a helicopter three times. And two of those times it was a Medivac chopper. 
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

mdgiles

BTW, on worse decisions of WW2, how about the Nazis waiting until it was too late to share technology with the Japanese. Advanced German tanks, artillery and weapons might have made getting out of China (thus soothing the US and turning the oil spigots back on)and attacking the USSR with the Germans, a viable option for the Japanese.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!