The Worst Miscalculation Of World War II

Started by tbone0106, June 24, 2012, 09:52:40 PM

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walkstall

Quote from: Ford289HiPo on June 30, 2012, 03:17:28 PM
That would have been a target rich environment, but those of us that were on border patrol during that time had no doubts that we were nothing but a speed bump. They just had too much stuff.



O T  I like your new avatar.
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mdgiles

Quote from: Ford289HiPo on June 30, 2012, 03:17:28 PM
That would have been a target rich environment, but those of us that were on border patrol during that time had no doubts that we were nothing but a speed bump. They just had too much stuff.
The question is could they have trusted their Warsaw Pact "allies" not to turn on them. Not to mention Russian troops surrendering in droves after the had a gander at how people lived in the West. Imagine some Russian troops overrunning a small town supermarket?
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Ford289HiPo

Quote from: mdgiles on June 30, 2012, 05:35:52 PM
The question is could they have trusted their Warsaw Pact "allies" not to turn on them. Not to mention Russian troops surrendering in droves after the had a gander at how people lived in the West. Imagine some Russian troops overrunning a small town supermarket?
Their propaganda machine, like ours, is strong. In their view, we in the west were hostile to their form of government and living. We wanted to destroy them, and they, us. They would have defended their way of life.
Thousands of artillery pieces would have been brought in to action in a WP attack. Those small town supermarkets would have been destroyed prior to the arrival of the main thrust.

As far as "trusting" their Warsaw Pact allies, in 1996, I had the opportunity to participate in one of the first military training teams to Poland. While there, my Team Leader asked General Bric, the commander of the Polish 6th Airborne, what they would have done if we infiltrated prior to an outbreak of hostilities.

Gen Bric told my Team Leader that hte polich civilians would have rolled us up, fed us and gotten us drunk, or the Polish military would have welcomed us with open arms as the did an about face and pointed their weapons east.

Without trying to get too in-depth, Poland is very nationalistic. We found just as many locals that despised us as the Russians. As long as they are left to their own means and doing their own thing, Poland is OK.

Of course, Gen Bric could have been blowing smoke just because they were desperate to join NATO.

East Germany - oh well......Germans being Germans, they followed the strong leader.

Czechoslovakian loyalties may have been questionable, and I have never been to Romania, Hungary, or Bulgaria, so I can't rate them.
Do cannibals refuse to eat clowns because they taste funny?

mdgiles

Quote from: Ford289HiPo on July 01, 2012, 04:03:28 PM
Their propaganda machine, like ours, is strong. In their view, we in the west were hostile to their form of government and living. We wanted to destroy them, and they, us. They would have defended their way of life.
Thousands of artillery pieces would have been brought in to action in a WP attack. Those small town supermarkets would have been destroyed prior to the arrival of the main thrust.

As far as "trusting" their Warsaw Pact allies, in 1996, I had the opportunity to participate in one of the first military training teams to Poland. While there, my Team Leader asked General Bric, the commander of the Polish 6th Airborne, what they would have done if we infiltrated prior to an outbreak of hostilities.

Gen Bric told my Team Leader that hte polich civilians would have rolled us up, fed us and gotten us drunk, or the Polish military would have welcomed us with open arms as the did an about face and pointed their weapons east.

Without trying to get too in-depth, Poland is very nationalistic. We found just as many locals that despised us as the Russians. As long as they are left to their own means and doing their own thing, Poland is OK.

Of course, Gen Bric could have been blowing smoke just because they were desperate to join NATO.

East Germany - oh well......Germans being Germans, they followed the strong leader.

Czechoslovakian loyalties may have been questionable, and I have never been to Romania, Hungary, or Bulgaria, so I can't rate them.
It's called a "preference cascade". The problem with the Warsaw Pact "allies" is that they weren't really allies. How many revolts did NATO have to put down in France, or Italy, or West Germany. How many did the Warsaw Pact have to put down Poland, or East Germany, or Hungary, or Czechoslovakia?  In reality, we now realize that the Soviet military machine was hollow and their "allies" support was non existent. One of the things that media reported back after the Moscow Summit in 1988 was the realization that the Soviets were basically a Third world country with nuclear weapons. Reagan simply stopped being afraid of the "dreaded" Soviet war machine, and drove them into bankruptcy. It turned out there was "no there, there".
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

mdgiles

BTW, I notice that we seemed to have missed the worse miscalculation of WW2, which was Hitler declaring war on the US. Suppose he had display a moment of sanity and had refrained from doing that?
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Ford289HiPo

Quote from: mdgiles on July 02, 2012, 07:56:07 AM
BTW, I notice that we seemed to have missed the worse miscalculation of WW2, which was Hitler declaring war on the US. Suppose he had display a moment of sanity and had refrained from doing that?
Then I wouldn't be here..............my mother was German, and my father was stationed there in the late 50's. :ohmy:
Do cannibals refuse to eat clowns because they taste funny?

Annoying Armed Conservative

Quote from: COVER D on June 29, 2012, 01:21:09 AM
Good point about the numbers. That's why IKE never worried about the outcome of the war. He
knew he had superior numbers in men and equipment. Patton went thru Europe pretty fast
after D-Day.

But all these men, tanks and guns still make  this a major battle and a great victory for Russia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

Actually he did worry.  Right up until he received the message, "Beachhead secured".
Summation of my views:  If it ain't in the Constitution the Feds shouldn't be allowed to do it.  As I see it Abortion and Gay Marriage is irrelevant Federally.  The 10th Amendment tells me so.  If I were forced to choose a side I'd vote against both, for Leftists can't be trusted.

mdgiles

Quote from: AnnoyingArmedConservative on July 02, 2012, 07:33:18 PM
Actually he did worry.  Right up until he received the message, "Beachhead secured".
Actually he did worry. Even after Normandy was a success. Yes, the US had more equipment and support than the Nazi's, but the interesting thing is toward the end of the war, they were starting to run out of men. Infantry men, the sharp point of the spear, were becoming scarce. The British had already started breaking up some divisions to fill out others even before D-Day. And one of the impetus for using black troops was that they were running out of troops, period. The US Army had a huge support establishment, because the US was supplying almost all of the equipment for almost all of the allies. And training Infantry had been a low priority, because "anybody" could be a grunt. And then they found out that wasn't even close to being true. The order of the day became to "spend material, not men". The Germans learned very quickly that if you attacked Americans, all sorts of artillery and air was coming your way. If the received fire from a village, the way they handled it was to flatten the village. A lot was made of the fact during the Vietnam War, that some areas were designated "free fire zones". You didn't need any permission from higher headquarters to call in any assets you had. Well in WW2, all of Europe was a "free fire zone".
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Foreigner

Yes, from a German POV attacking Russia definitely is considered being the biggest mistake right after the Holocaust.

CubaLibre

Quote from: mdgiles on July 02, 2012, 07:56:07 AM
BTW, I notice that we seemed to have missed the worse miscalculation of WW2, which was Hitler declaring war on the US. Suppose he had display a moment of sanity and had refrained from doing that?
Best case scenario- the British would have worked out a truce, and the Cold War would have been fought a few years early between Germany and the USSR.

Hard to tell who would have developed the A-bomb in such a scenario, though.

mdgiles

Quote from: CubaLibre on August 23, 2012, 08:12:49 AM
Best case scenario- the British would have worked out a truce, and the Cold War would have been fought a few years early between Germany and the USSR.

Hard to tell who would have developed the A-bomb in such a scenario, though.
Actually the US started work on the Manhattan Project in 1939. Without having to put any resources into a European Campaign it's possible that the US may have developed the bomb earlier. And the defeat of Japan would have come much sooner as the only object of US industrial might. All those troops that went to Europe would have been head for Japan.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

tbone0106

Quote from: Foreigner on August 22, 2012, 07:40:15 PM
Yes, from a German POV attacking Russia definitely is considered being the biggest mistake right after the Holocaust.

In the US, the Holocaust is considered an unthinkable tragedy, a horrible crime, but NOT a mistake in the conduct of the war, mainly because it was almost unknown until the war was practically over, but also because it was carried out mostly outside of Germany proper.

Hitler and Company might have gotten by with eliminating a lot of Jews, or whatever other ethnic/religious/political enemies they may have chosen, for years or decades. But they declared war on practically the entire world, and the entire world responded.

Barbarossa was Hitler's signature mistake. The instant a German boot landed on Soviet territory, Hitler's war was over; after that, it was just a matter of time. Der Fuhrer's declaration of war against the US later that year is often cited as a dumb move, and it was. But all it did was accelerate the inevitable.

mdgiles

To many Americans the idea of the Nazis and the Communists fighting each other to the death had a certain appeal. I'm sure the US would have been glad to supply both sides, building up our war economy, while crushing Japan to powder.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

tbone0106

Quote from: mdgiles on August 26, 2012, 09:46:43 AM
To many Americans the idea of the Nazis and the Communists fighting each other to the death had a certain appeal. I'm sure the US would have been glad to supply both sides, building up our war economy, while crushing Japan to powder.
Patton, I'm sure, would have supported such a scheme.

Foreigner

Quote from: tbone0106 on August 25, 2012, 09:44:12 PM
In the US, the Holocaust is considered an unthinkable tragedy, a horrible crime, but NOT a mistake in the conduct of the war, mainly because it was almost unknown until the war was practically over, but also because it was carried out mostly outside of Germany proper.

Hitler and Company might have gotten by with eliminating a lot of Jews, or whatever other ethnic/religious/political enemies they may have chosen, for years or decades. But they declared war on practically the entire world, and the entire world responded.

Barbarossa was Hitler's signature mistake. The instant a German boot landed on Soviet territory, Hitler's war was over; after that, it was just a matter of time. Der Fuhrer's declaration of war against the US later that year is often cited as a dumb move, and it was. But all it did was accelerate the inevitable.

Yes, when it comes to war strategy alone, attacking Russia is probably #1. I just felt like putting the Holocaust first, because I personally think it's the dumbest thing ever.

Don't get me wrong, not just because I learned at school etc. that this was horrible and as a German I'm supposed to think that way. I'm actually pretty good at ignoring what society tries to indoctrinate me with, otherwise I wouldn't even be talking to American conservatives at all, haha.

Also I have to disappoint you if you're Jewish. Because as much as I respect how Jewish people value education, I also know how people in Israel tend to be dicks about anything from who's first in line at the supermarket to who's right about driving where on the roads. (You'll know what I mean if you've been there.)

But from any reasonable point of view, the Holocaust was idiotic and insane. I'm pretty sure that even if you applied modern day genetics, it still would prove to be complete nonsense to kill all those people. Well, I guess according to modern day genetics the whole "Arian" thing is pretty silly.

To be honest, the true "master race" would be a mix of lots of different races' attributes, not some inbred people (I'm exaggerating here). We'll have to worry about this kind of thing in the future again, I'm afraid.