The Worst Miscalculation Of World War II

Started by tbone0106, June 24, 2012, 09:52:40 PM

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Ford289HiPo

Quote from: walkstall on June 26, 2012, 07:57:30 PM



The Battle of Kursk: Myths and Reality

http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

More good intel on the Battle of Kursk

http://victory1945.rt.com/s/content/6/226_4_Kursk_battle.jpg

There does seem to be a large discrepancy in the order of battle between various sites though.
Do cannibals refuse to eat clowns because they taste funny?


COVER D


mdgiles

Quote from: COVER D on June 27, 2012, 07:35:50 PM
This looks like a major tank battle to me. Plenty of dead Germans and tanks.

http://military.discovery.com/videos/greatest-tank-battles-battle-of-kursk-operation-zitadelle.html
The Soviets had the habit of staging propaganda shots after battles were over. Pulling German Tanks and German dead from other battles, laying them around and taking pictures. Total German production of Tiger I's was about 1400, Tiger II's added another 700, and they only produced about 6500 Panthers; so be suspicious when you see a lot of "destroyed" Tigers on a battlefield.  In comparison  The US produced about 45,000 Sherman's and the Soviet produced 57,000 T-34's. As one German Panther commander put it: "We ran out of shells before they ran out of Sherman's".
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

tbone0106

It really was a matter of numbers in a lot of respects. It has already been pointed out that the Germans produced, for example, a four-engine long-range bomber -- the FW 200. They made exactly 276 of those astoundingly modern airplanes.

The United States produced 12,731 B-17s.
The United States produced 18,482 B-24s.
Great Britain produced 7,377 Avro Lancasters.
Great Britain produced 6,178 Handley Page Halifax bombers.

Um, it's not hard to see that the numbers favored the Allies. The tank production numbers are roughly similar, though I don't have them at hand. If you need 'em, I'll get 'em.  :wink:

elmerfudd

Quote from: tbone0106 on June 27, 2012, 08:43:11 PM
It really was a matter of numbers in a lot of respects. It has already been pointed out that the Germans produced, for example, a four-engine long-range bomber -- the FW 200. They made exactly 276 of those astoundingly modern airplanes.

The United States produced 12,731 B-17s.
The United States produced 18,482 B-24s.
Great Britain produced 7,377 Avro Lancasters.
Great Britain produced 6,178 Handley Page Halifax bombers.

Um, it's not hard to see that the numbers favored the Allies. The tank production numbers are roughly similar, though I don't have them at hand. If you need 'em, I'll get 'em.  :wink:

No question that American industrial capacity is what turned the tide.  That coupled with the fact that the war was not waged to any extent in our country.  Lend lease, while probably unconstitutional, made it entirely possible for the Russkis to do what they did, and mostly possible for the Brits to do what they did prior to our entry. Nobody wanted to challenge the constitutionality of lend lease for that reason.

mdgiles

Quote from: elmerfudd on June 28, 2012, 10:54:18 AM
No question that American industrial capacity is what turned the tide.  That coupled with the fact that the war was not waged to any extent in our country.  Lend lease, while probably unconstitutional, made it entirely possible for the Russkis to do what they did, and mostly possible for the Brits to do what they did prior to our entry. Nobody wanted to challenge the constitutionality of lend lease for that reason.
Germany wasn't exactly an industrial backwater and, for much of the war, they had all the resources of Europe to call on. They were simply an organizational mess. The Sherman and the T34 were not the best tanks on the battlefield, but the were easy to build and the Soviets and Americans were organized in a manner that allowed them to produce thousands. The Germans were never satisfied with large numbers of a pretty good tank, the wanted the perfect tank; even if it meant producing a minuscule amount. They would get ready to produce a particular weapon and then stop because a better one was on the drawing boards. The Nazis always let the perfect be the enemy of the merely good.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

tbone0106

Quote from: mdgiles on June 28, 2012, 05:08:37 PM
Germany wasn't exactly an industrial backwater and, for much of the war, they had all the resources of Europe to call on. They were simply an organizational mess. The Sherman and the T34 were not the best tanks on the battlefield, but the were easy to build and the Soviets and Americans were organized in a manner that allowed them to produce thousands. The Germans were never satisfied with large numbers of a pretty good tank, the wanted the perfect tank; even if it meant producing a minuscule amount. They would get ready to produce a particular weapon and then stop because a better one was on the drawing boards. The Nazis always let the perfect be the enemy of the merely good.

Yes, Giles, there was that difference in... attitude? Standards? The German panzers in general were bigger and badder than anything the Allies ever fielded, but they cost a friggin' FORTUNE to build, they were incredibly complex and difficult to repair, and the man-hours in construction and maintenance meant that a relatively small number were built. Sure, a Panzer IV's 75mm gun could kill a Sherman most of a mile away. But killing thirty Shermans that are all shooting back at you -- all at the same time -- with 75mm cannons that aren't so much inferior to yours is another matter altogether.

While the Germans loved their armor -- the more, the thicker, the better -- the Japanese took the opposite approach. Their tanks were steel coffins, with tiny guns and thin armor. They were very effective against infantry, and they were fast, but when faced with a REAL tank, the fight was over pretty quickly. The same philosophy went to Japanese aircraft. No armor, no self-sealing gas tanks, and so on. The Zero was a pretty cool plane, but one tracer at a wing root was all you needed to earn a new rising sun painted on the side of your cockpit.

elmerfudd

Quote from: mdgiles on June 28, 2012, 05:08:37 PM
Germany wasn't exactly an industrial backwater and, for much of the war, they had all the resources of Europe to call on. They were simply an organizational mess. The Sherman and the T34 were not the best tanks on the battlefield, but the were easy to build and the Soviets and Americans were organized in a manner that allowed them to produce thousands. The Germans were never satisfied with large numbers of a pretty good tank, the wanted the perfect tank; even if it meant producing a minuscule amount. They would get ready to produce a particular weapon and then stop because a better one was on the drawing boards. The Nazis always let the perfect be the enemy of the merely good.

Not that I think they're Nazis, but this reminds me of the Tea Party. 
All or nothing, which generally means nothing.

Ford289HiPo

Quote from: elmerfudd on June 28, 2012, 05:40:11 PM
Not that I think they're Nazis, but this reminds me of the Tea Party. 
All or nothing, which generally means nothing.
Bah! Let's not turn this into a political thread. :angry:
Do cannibals refuse to eat clowns because they taste funny?

Ford289HiPo

Quote from: mdgiles on June 28, 2012, 05:08:37 PM
Germany wasn't exactly an industrial backwater and, for much of the war, they had all the resources of Europe to call on. They were simply an organizational mess. The Sherman and the T34 were not the best tanks on the battlefield, but the were easy to build and the Soviets and Americans were organized in a manner that allowed them to produce thousands. The Germans were never satisfied with large numbers of a pretty good tank, the wanted the perfect tank; even if it meant producing a minuscule amount. They would get ready to produce a particular weapon and then stop because a better one was on the drawing boards. The Nazis always let the perfect be the enemy of the merely good.

Your comment reminds me of the East/West border during the Cold War. We had a few battalions of M1 Abrams, but they had lots and lots of T80's. They were expected to take Frankfurt in 5 days.
Do cannibals refuse to eat clowns because they taste funny?

tbone0106

Quote from: Ford289HiPo on June 28, 2012, 05:49:46 PM
Your comment reminds me of the East/West border during the Cold War. We had a few battalions of M1 Abrams, but they had lots and lots of T80's. They were expected to take Frankfurt in 5 days.

Heh. My guess is they couldn't have taken Frankfurt in 500 days. The T80 was a hell of a tank, but shit...

COVER D

#27
Quote from: mdgiles on June 27, 2012, 08:04:05 PM
The Soviets had the habit of staging propaganda shots after battles were over. Pulling German Tanks and German dead from other battles, laying them around and taking pictures. Total German production of Tiger I's was about 1400, Tiger II's added another 700, and they only produced about 6500 Panthers; so be suspicious when you see a lot of "destroyed" Tigers on a battlefield.  In comparison  The US produced about 45,000 Sherman's and the Soviet produced 57,000 T-34's. As one German Panther commander put it: "We ran out of shells before they ran out of Sherman's".

Good point about the numbers. That's why IKE never worried about the outcome of the war. He
knew he had superior numbers in men and equipment. Patton went thru Europe pretty fast
after D-Day.

But all these men, tanks and guns still make  this a major battle and a great victory for Russia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk


mdgiles

Quote from: Ford289HiPo on June 28, 2012, 05:49:46 PM
Your comment reminds me of the East/West border during the Cold War. We had a few battalions of M1 Abrams, but they had lots and lots of T80's. They were expected to take Frankfurt in 5 days.
Not if the A-10's were up.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Ford289HiPo

Quote from: mdgiles on June 29, 2012, 08:55:59 AM
Not if the A-10's were up.

That would have been a target rich environment, but those of us that were on border patrol during that time had no doubts that we were nothing but a speed bump. They just had too much stuff.
Do cannibals refuse to eat clowns because they taste funny?