Conservative Political Forum

Two years ago, Prime Minister Paul Keating of Australia refused to show "proper respect" to Britain's Queen Elizabeth II during her state visit. In response, Terry Dicks, a Conservative member of the British Parliament said, "It's a country of ex-convicts, so we should not be surprised by the rudeness of their prime minister."

A slur such as this would be considered unthinkable if it were uttered against any other class or race of people except the descendants of White slavery. Dicks' remark is not only offensive, it is ignorant and false. Most of Australia's "convicts" were shipped into servitude for such "crimes" as stealing seven yards of lace, cutting trees on an aristocrat's estate or poaching sheep to feed a starving family.

The arrogant disregard for the holocaust visited upon the poor and working class Whites of Britain by the aristocracy continues in our time because the history of that epoch has been almost completely extirpated from our collective memory.

When White servitude is acknowledged as having existed in America, it is almost always termed as temporary "indentured servitude" or part of the convict trade, which, after the Revolution of 1776, centered on Australia instead of America. The "convicts" transported to America under the 1723 Waltham Act, perhaps numbered 100,000.

The indentured servants who served a tidy little period of 4 to 7 years polishing the master's silver and china and then taking their place in colonial high society, were a minuscule fraction of the great unsung hundreds of thousands of White slaves who were worked to death in this country from the early l7th century onward.

Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves. These Whites were slaves for life, long before Blacks ever were. This slavery was even hereditary. White children born to White slaves were enslaved too.

Whites were auctioned on the block with children sold and separated from their parents and wives sold and separated from their husbands. Free Black property owners strutted the streets of northern and southern American cities while White slaves were worked to death in the sugar mills of Barbados and Jamaica and the plantations of Virginia.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html (http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html)

I would be careful about using Michael Anthony Hoffman II, as a source. He is an American journalist, conspiracy theorist and Holocaust denier who describes himself as a "heretical writer." Hoffman is the managing editor of the newsletter Revisionist History.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 04, 2012, 10:43:30 AM
I would be careful about using Michael Anthony Hoffman II, as a source. He is an American journalist, conspiracy theorist and Holocaust denier who describes himself as a "heretical writer." Hoffman is the managing editor of the newsletter Revisionist History.

There are other links to history.
Regardless of who is telling the story, it's still a fact that white slave were the first.
Think Australia.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/other/white_slavery.htm (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/other/white_slavery.htm)

Quote from: mdgiles on July 04, 2012, 10:38:49 AM
Originally no, because slaves weren't always slaves, they were indentures and were freed after seven years. Lifetime chattel slavery was brought to the United States, by British plantation owners who moved from Barbados to South Carolina. Do you know that the Constitution says nothing about slaves, only persons held in servitude. Lincoln in a speech given in Chicago, on July 10, 1858 reminded his audience of that, along with the fact that if the Declaration of Independence's famous clause "that all men were created equal" could be amended to read "except Negros", than it could also be amended to exclude others.

Not true, that was a myth.
George Downing wrote a letter to the honorable John Winthrop Colonial Governor of Massachusetts in 1645, "planters who want to make a fortune in the West Indies must procure white slave labor out of England if they wanted to succeed."  Lewis Cecil Gray's History of Agriculture in the Southern United States to 1860 vol.1 pp 316, 318 records Sir George Sandys' 1618 plan for Virginia, referring to bound whites assigned to the treasurer's office. "To belong to said office forever.  The service of whites bound to Berkeley Hundred was deemed perpetual."

The Quoke Walker case in Massachusetts 1773 ruled that; slavery contrary to the state Constitution was applied equally to Blacks and Whites in Massachusetts.

Statutes at Large of Virginia, vol. 1 pp. 174, 198, 200, 243 & 306 did not discriminate Negroes in bondage from Whites in Bondage.

Marcellus Rivers and Oxenbridge Foyle, England's Slaves 1659 consists of a statement smuggled out of the New World and published in London referring to whites in bondage who did not think of themselves as indentured servants but as "England's Slaves" and "England's merchandise."

Yes but when we speak of white slaves in America, most people assume you're speaking of the 13 colonies. Not, for example, Barbados, where many of the men involve in Monmouth's rebellion were sent; and where their descendants live to this day. Also attempting to conflate chattel slavery with indentured servitude is simply an attempt to muddy the waters.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 04, 2012, 12:14:26 PM
Yes but when we speak of white slaves in America, most people assume you're speaking of the 13 colonies. Not, for example, Barbados, where many of the men involve in Monmouth's rebellion were sent; and where their descendants live to this day. Also attempting to conflate chattel slavery with indentured servitude is simply an attempt to muddy the waters.

No, you're the one mixing the two, indentured servitude is nothing more than working off debt, as in work release from jail, which is also indentured servitude.

And yes, most people think of black slaves, mostly because they were the last enslaved before the law changed.

Quote from: Solar on July 04, 2012, 01:06:34 PM
No, you're the one mixing the two, indentured servitude is nothing more than working off debt, as in work release from jail, which is also indentured servitude.

And yes, most people think of black slaves, mostly because they were the last enslaved before the law changed.

Uh no, that were actually black slaves in the Americas, long before the English had even started to settle in the America's. Indeed the first sugar plantations were in Madeira, and were originally worked by North Africans. But these were soon replaced with black slaves from Guinea. Also black slaves had been imported to Brazil and the Sugar Islands of the Caribbean, before America was settled. The first slaves were imported into America in 1617 at Jamestown. Although they were not treated as what we now consider slaves. Indentured servitude was a lot more than working off a debt. You realize that when you consider that you could be imprisoned for debt in Great Britain. However the problem with indentured white workers, was that it was simply too easy for them to disappear into the general population. Which is why few white slaves came to what is now the United States, most - Irish who had revolted during the time of Charles I, Oliver Cromwell, and James II or those who ended up on the wrong side of political uprisings - were sent to Caribbean islands. One other thing, those "white slaves" were often not considered white, but black as they had one drop of black blood. So, question. Why this continually effort to prove that some huge group of white slaves existed in the United States? Note not indentured persons, but slaves. and not in the Caribbean where thousands of white slaves were sent, but in what is now the United States.

For cryin' out loud. This site is like crawling through a freaking mine field. :confused:

It was white people that fought and died to free the black slaves. They knew it was wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will white people ever be considered anything but villains?

WTF?

Quote from: kramarat on July 04, 2012, 02:52:55 PM
For cryin' out loud. This site is like crawling through a freaking mine field. :confused:

It was white people that fought and died to free the black slaves. They knew it was wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will white people ever be considered anything but villains?

WTF?

I don't think white's are villains. But I wonder about this continually effort to downplay the black experience in the United States. Telling me that black slave owners in Louisiana owned 10,000 slaves - out of 4,500,000 total slaves - as if that minuscule amount some how negates the total black experience. You know, it's as if the existence the occasional Schindler, negates the Holocaust.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 04, 2012, 03:20:22 PM
I don't think white's are villains. But I wonder about this continually effort to downplay the black experience in the United States. Telling me that black slave owners in Louisiana owned 10,000 slaves - out of 4,500,000 total slaves - as if that minuscule amount some how negates the total black experience. You know, it's as if the existence the occasional Schindler, negates the Holocaust.

You're coming real close to pissing me off.

Should I be mad because the Irish were considered second class citizens?

Should I be mad because the Italians were considered second class citizens?

Were you a slave? Let's go to the pit, and talk about how black people are the only f**king victims in history.

The "black" experience, is a human experience. WTF makes you special?

How many black people were gassed and burned in the Nazi ovens?

Keep on believing brother....................black people are the only ones in history that were mistreated.

http://mrbrownww2.pbworks.com/w/page/24477339/nazi%20holocaust(erica%20and%20caroline) (http://mrbrownww2.pbworks.com/w/page/24477339/nazi%20holocaust(erica%20and%20caroline))

How many black bodies do you see in that pit?

Quote from: mdgiles on July 04, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
Uh no, that were actually black slaves in the Americas, long before the English had even started to settle in the America's. Indeed the first sugar plantations were in Madeira, and were originally worked by North Africans. But these were soon replaced with black slaves from Guinea. Also black slaves had been imported to Brazil and the Sugar Islands of the Caribbean, before America was settled.

Stay with me here, were talking about the US, try and stay with me.

QuoteThe first slaves were imported into America in 1617 at Jamestown. Although they were not treated as what we now consider slaves. Indentured servitude was a lot more than working off a debt. You realize that when you consider that you could be imprisoned for debt in Great Britain. However the problem with indentured white workers, was that it was simply too easy for them to disappear into the general population. Which is why few white slaves came to what is now the United States, most - Irish who had revolted during the time of Charles I, Oliver Cromwell, and James II or those who ended up on the wrong side of political uprisings - were sent to Caribbean islands. One other thing, those "white slaves" were often not considered white, but black as they had one drop of black blood. So, question. Why this continually effort to prove that some huge group of white slaves existed in the United States? Note not indentured persons, but slaves. and not in the Caribbean where thousands of white slaves were sent, but in what is now the United States.

Did you even absorb what I posted?

George Downing wrote a letter to the honorable John Winthrop Colonial Governor of Massachusetts in 1645, "planters who want to make a fortune in the West Indies must procure white slave labor out of England if they wanted to succeed."  Lewis Cecil Gray's History of Agriculture in the Southern United States to 1860 vol.1 pp 316, 318 records Sir George Sandys' 1618 plan for Virginia, referring to bound whites assigned to the treasurer's office. "To belong to said office forever.  The service of whites bound to Berkeley Hundred was deemed perpetual."

The Quoke Walker case in Massachusetts 1773 ruled that; slavery contrary to the state Constitution was applied equally to Blacks and Whites in Massachusetts.

Statutes at Large of Virginia, vol. 1 pp. 174, 198, 200, 243 & 306 did not discriminate Negroes in bondage from Whites in Bondage.

Why do I get the feeling that pointing out that whites were also slaves, you somehow interpret it as dismissing the plight of the black man?
There was a time when everyone was subject to slavery, it just happened that white Americans had enough of it and fought to end it.

Quote from: Solar on July 04, 2012, 04:37:58 PM
Why do I get the feeling that pointing out that whites were also slaves, you somehow interpret it as dismissing the plight of the black man?
There was a time when everyone was subject to slavery, it just happened that white Americans had enough of it and fought to end it.

While we can learn from the past, we often times choose not to. We are entering a period in which both blacks and whites are slaves. We are doing it voluntarily. Our master will live in Washington...................and we will all be equal.

Quote from: kramarat on July 04, 2012, 04:46:40 PM
While we can learn from the past, we often times choose not to. We are entering a period in which both blacks and whites are slaves. We are doing it voluntarily. Our master will live in Washington...................and we will all be equal.

Yep, equally poor slaves to Govt.

Quote from: Solar on July 04, 2012, 04:50:33 PM
Yep, equally poor slaves to Govt.

I get so tired of this, "Black experience", "Poor me", bullshit.

mdgiles has a lot of great posts, but he should know better than to think that the "black" American, was the only person in history to be abused. Come on.

Quote from: kramarat on July 04, 2012, 05:41:31 PM
I get so tired of this, "Black experience", "Poor me", bullshit.

mdgiles has a lot of great posts, but he should know better than to think that the "black" American, was the only person in history to be abused. Come on.

It's the reason my great grand parents came here, to escape slavery, via communism.
They were Joooos. I'm not, but my grand mother said on her death bed talking to my father. "Son, come closer, I have to tell you something", he leaned in close and she whispered in his ear very quietly, "We're Jewish".
She was so afraid, she had kept that a secret more than 50 years.
She was still afraid that once again they might start coming for the Jews, that she never uttered a word about it to anyone.

Quote from: Solar on July 04, 2012, 07:29:22 PM
It's the reason my great grand parents came here, to escape slavery, via communism.
They were Joooos. I'm not, but my grand mother said on her death bed talking to my father. "Son, come closer, I have to tell you something", he leaned in close and she whispered in his ear very quietly, "We're Jewish".
She was so afraid, she had kept that a secret more than 50 years.
She was still afraid that once again they might start coming for the Jews, that she never uttered a word about it to anyone.

Thanks for sharing that. Being a victim is not a "black" experience. It's a human experience.
Being a victim of sexual abuse, is not owned by women.

We can look to the past and try to figure out what we are owed, or we can look to the future, and try to figure out what we can give.
The choice is ours.

The hurt that we have felt, knows no color. Nor will it stop. As soon as we stop trying to even the score, we can truly coexist. Everyone has a skill.

Quote from: kramarat on July 04, 2012, 03:33:32 PM
You're coming real close to pissing me off.

Should I be mad because the Irish were considered second class citizens?

Should I be mad because the Italians were considered second class citizens?

Were you a slave? Let's go to the pit, and talk about how black people are the only f**king victims in history.

The "black" experience, is a human experience. WTF makes you special?

Same tired crap. People come online, downplay the historical facts and then get mad when they're called on them. Irish were considered "second class citizens" at the same time that blacks were considered human cattle. Italians were considered "second class citizens" at the same time as blacks were living under Jim Crow. IN THIS COUNTRY. You see that's the point. answering the historical fact of black history in this country's past, by telling me how badly the Babylonians treated the Israelites, or the Romans treated the Gauls, is kind of a dodge. And what makes me so fucking special is that it happened in this country. I'm a descendent of the people who were the f**king victims of this country's history. And lest you forget, this thread is about this country's history. Strange how when ever the subject arises, some people prefer to minimize it, or rush past it, or start lectures on how it's no worse than other places. And no I wasn't a slave. Did you fight in the Civil War to free the slaves? Or were you on the side that wanted to keep them in chains.

Quote from: Solar on July 04, 2012, 04:37:58 PM
Why do I get the feeling that pointing out that whites were also slaves, you somehow interpret it as dismissing the plight of the black man?
There was a time when everyone was subject to slavery, it just happened that white Americans had enough of it and fought to end it.

Because both you and I know that white slavery was never on the scale that black slavery was, and usually the subject is only raised in order to minimize the overwhelming fact of how blacks were treated.

Quote from: kramarat on July 04, 2012, 03:46:49 PM
How many black people were gassed and burned in the Nazi ovens?

I have no idea, and further I don't care. Europe, America. Two different continents. Two different histories.

Quote from: kramarat on July 04, 2012, 04:19:08 PM
Keep on believing brother....................black people are the only ones in history that were mistreated.

http://mrbrownww2.pbworks.com/w/page/24477339/nazi%20holocaust(erica%20and%20caroline) (http://mrbrownww2.pbworks.com/w/page/24477339/nazi%20holocaust(erica%20and%20caroline))

How many black bodies do you see in that pit?

Remember earlier, when I pointed out that whenever the subject of black history in America comes up, there's an immediate attempt to sidetrack it. Point is, I don't particularly care about Europeans murdering other Europeans. I've never seen reason the one, as to why Americans should feel any guilt whatsoever over the Holocaust. Americans didn't carry it out, and Americans died to end it.

Quote from: kramarat on July 04, 2012, 05:41:31 PM
I get so tired of this, "Black experience", "Poor me", bullshit.

mdgiles has a lot of great posts, but he should know better than to think that the "black" American, was the only person in history to be abused. Come on.

At what point have I ever said that the black American was the only person in history to be abused. BUT the abuse of the black American was a major part of the history of THIS country. And the very same people who are happy to claim a connection with the American heroes of the past, seem in a hurry to distance themselves from the not so heroic incidents of the past. Everyone seems to be willing to claim a connection with the Union troops who freed the slaves, but sort of forget that there was an army on the other side. And when subject of that army is brought up, it's all about the usual "Lost Cause" BS, but the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery don'tcha know.

Quote from: Solar on July 04, 2012, 07:29:22 PM
It's the reason my great grand parents came here, to escape slavery, via communism.
They were Joooos. I'm not, but my grand mother said on her death bed talking to my father. "Son, come closer, I have to tell you something", he leaned in close and she whispered in his ear very quietly, "We're Jewish".
She was so afraid, she had kept that a secret more than 50 years.
She was still afraid that once again they might start coming for the Jews, that she never uttered a word about it to anyone.

Came here, not brought here. And not exactly brought here to enjoy the freedoms that America offered.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 05, 2012, 04:05:34 AM
Because both you and I know that white slavery was never on the scale that black slavery was, and usually the subject is only raised in order to minimize the overwhelming fact of how blacks were treated.

In America, that's true, but on a broader scale, that statement is pure bullshit!
And no, the minimization is a delusion in your head!

Quote from: kramarat on July 04, 2012, 08:06:41 PM
Thanks for sharing that. Being a victim is not a "black" experience. It's a human experience.
Being a victim of sexual abuse, is not owned by women.

We can look to the past and try to figure out what we are owed, or we can look to the future, and try to figure out what we can give.
The choice is ours.

The hurt that we have felt, knows no color. Nor will it stop. As soon as we stop trying to even the score, we can truly coexist. Everyone has a skill.

Sigh . No one is trying to "even the score". But by the same token, pretending that nothing happened is just as bad. A great historical wrong was done, IN THIS COUNTRY. Telling me that people were also treated badly oceans away and centuries ago, isn't going to make that fact go away. Being told that you need to "get over it" - often by the descendents of the people who did "it" to you in the first place - has always struck me as a little self serving on their part.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 05, 2012, 04:42:28 AM
Sigh . No one is trying to "even the score". But by the same token, pretending that nothing happened is just as bad. A great historical wrong was done, IN THIS COUNTRY. Telling me that people were also treated badly oceans away and centuries ago, isn't going to make that fact go away. Being told that you need to "get over it" - often by the descendents of the people who did "it" to you in the first place - has always struck me as a little self serving on their part.

Excuse me, Did what to You, were you a victim of slavery, is that how you see yourself?
Your ancestors were treated no differently than many on this forum, mine were slaves as well, several different generations over time, and amazingly, they moved on and up.

You want to play victim, then fine, but don't drag us into pity pool, we've moved on!

Quote from: Solar on July 05, 2012, 04:40:53 AM
In America, that's true, but on a broader scale, that statement is pure bullshit!
And no, the minimization is a delusion in your head!

But the whole point of that "broader scale" is to minimize and downplay. As I noted, in a conversation on American history why are actions in other lands, in other eras even raised? And raised even when these asides have no connection with American history? The "big picture" is designed to make a "snapshot" look smaller.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 05, 2012, 05:41:48 AM
But the whole point of that "broader scale" is to minimize and downplay. As I noted, in a conversation on American history why are actions in other lands, in other eras even raised? And raised even when these asides have no connection with American history? The "big picture" is designed to make a "snapshot" look smaller.

In Your Mind, maybe.
It's like I always say.
If you are offended by something I say, but I had absolutely no intention of being insulting to you or anyone else, then obviously, you have an issue.
Here's another one, Life's a Bitch, we all had horrible experiences growing up, but it's also what makes us who we are.
You can either grow from them, or lay in victim hood all your life.

If you wonder why I point this out, it's because that's how you project yourself, as a victim.

Quote from: Solar on July 05, 2012, 07:28:37 AM
In Your Mind, maybe.
It's like I always say.
If you are offended by something I say, but I had absolutely no intention of being insulting to you or anyone else, then obviously, you have an issue.
Here's another one, Life's a Bitch, we all had horrible experiences growing up, but it's also what makes us who we are.
You can either grow from them, or lay in victim hood all your life.

If you wonder why I point this out, it's because that's how you project yourself, as a victim.

I'm not insulted by a discussion of facts. I've already agreed with you, that indeed you are right, there were white slaves in the Americas, just as there were Native American slaves. What I am arguing with you about is - what seems to me - an attempt to make that slavery the equivalent of black slavery. And it simply wasn't. And of course I ask why the attempt? Just as I ask why make such an issue out of the tiny number of black slave owners, and their comparatively minuscule number of slaves?

Quote from: mdgiles on July 05, 2012, 07:51:38 AM
I'm not insulted by a discussion of facts. I've already agreed with you, that indeed you are right, there were white slaves in the Americas, just as there were Native American slaves. What I am arguing with you about is - what seems to me - an attempt to make that slavery the equivalent of black slavery. And it simply wasn't. And of course I ask why the attempt? Just as I ask why make such an issue out of the tiny number of black slave owners, and their comparatively minuscule number of slaves?

I honestly don't care about black slave owners or how many slaves were owned by whom, the fact is, we all have a history, whether one is more recent is completely irrelevant.
You seem focused on a moot point, that point being, it is history, in other words, it affects none of us.
Why is this such an issue for you?

And here's something else to chew on. I don't give a damn!
What I care about most, is that my ancestors had the intestinal fortitude to move forward, so that I could live a normal life and not think like a victim.
Oh sure, I could do an ancestry search to find all the victims, then mourn their plight as if it were my own, but that would be doing them a disservice, in that they threw off the bonds, yet I want them to wear them again, so I can play victim.
Nope! I don't play that shit.

Move on Giles, it's not a contest as to whether one race of people were treated worse than another, were all people!

Quote from: Solar on July 05, 2012, 10:07:37 AM
I honestly don't care about black slave owners or how many slaves were owned by whom, the fact is, we all have a history, whether one is more recent is completely irrelevant.
You seem focused on a moot point, that point being, it is history, in other words, it affects none of us.
Why is this such an issue for you?

And here's something else to chew on. I don't give a damn!
What I care about most, is that my ancestors had the intestinal fortitude to move forward, so that I could live a normal life and not think like a victim.
Oh sure, I could do an ancestry search to find all the victims, then mourn their plight as if it were my own, but that would be doing them a disservice, in that they threw off the bonds, yet I want them to wear them again, so I can play victim.
Nope! I don't play that shit.

Move on Giles, it's not a contest as to whether one race of people were treated worse than another, were all people!

Let me give you a Holocaust analogy - and I saying up front that this isn't an exact analogy - whatever slavery was, or wasn't, it definitely wasn't industrialized mass murder. Let's say you are the descendant of Holocaust survivors and you're discussing it. And someone interjects that they also murdered Gypsies. What effect does that have on the overall horror of the Holocaust for Jews. How about if the bring up the fact that some Jews hid in the Wehrmacht and even the SS, the very people who were murdering the Jews. does that decrease it's significance? Holocaust deniers often use the talking point:" well the numbers are wrong". "They didn't kill six million Jews, only 4 million. And if they got that wrong how can we even be sure it ever happened". The implication being that the difference between six million and four million somehow negates the event. And when you first started the conversation, wouldn't you wonder why the subject of the Gypsies was even brought up? And what would be your mindset, if you received a "so, get over it", Stalin killed the Ukrainians and the Ottomans murdered the Armenians?

Quote from: mdgiles on July 05, 2012, 04:02:30 AM
Same tired crap. People come online, downplay the historical facts and then get mad when they're called on them. Irish were considered "second class citizens" at the same time that blacks were considered human cattle. Italians were considered "second class citizens" at the same time as blacks were living under Jim Crow. IN THIS COUNTRY. You see that's the point. answering the historical fact of black history in this country's past, by telling me how badly the Babylonians treated the Israelites, or the Romans treated the Gauls, is kind of a dodge. And what makes me so fucking special is that it happened in this country. I'm a descendent of the people who were the f**king victims of this country's history. And lest you forget, this thread is about this country's history. Strange how when ever the subject arises, some people prefer to minimize it, or rush past it, or start lectures on how it's no worse than other places. And no I wasn't a slave. Did you fight in the Civil War to free the slaves? Or were you on the side that wanted to keep them in chains.

I'm going to tell you what pisses me off. I'm a white person, that had nothing to do with slavery, nor did any of my ancestors. Almost daily, I hear a bunch race baiting bullshit coming out of Obama, Holder saying the fast and furious investigation is based on white racism, all of that Jeremiah Wright, loud mouth, racist trash a few years ago........................I'm sick of it.

If black people want to hold a grudge against the country, fine. The constant attacks on white people in general, are getting really old. I can't understand why so many black people, (that were never slaves), want to cling to slavery, as the single most important factor of their existence.

What's up with this? What if Romney pulled something like this, with whites? As far as I'm concerned, we're all Americans.
President Obama Announces the 2012 Launch of African Americans for Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjoHA5ocwU#ws)

Quote from: kramarat on July 05, 2012, 03:01:00 PM
I'm going to tell you what pisses me off. I'm a white person, that had nothing to do with slavery, nor did any of my ancestors. Almost daily, I hear a bunch race baiting bullshit coming out of Obama, Holder saying the fast and furious investigation is based on white racism, all of that Jeremiah Wright, loud mouth, racist trash a few years ago........................I'm sick of it.

Then why does it bother you? If your hands are clean and you harbor absolutely no guilt. The discussing it should be little more than an academic exercise.

QuoteIf black people want to hold a grudge against the country, fine. The constant attacks on white people in general, are getting really old. I can't understand why so many black people, (that were never slaves), want to cling to slavery, as the single most important factor of their existence.

And I hold a "grudge" because I recall that it happened, and actually want to discuss it upon occasion? Would you feel better about the issue if I - or all blacks - pretended it never happened?

QuoteWhat's up with this? What if Romney pulled something like this, with whites? As far as I'm concerned, we're all Americans.
President Obama Announces the 2012 Launch of African Americans for Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjoHA5ocwU#ws)

Never said we all weren't. Is discussing that part of history a sign of "disloyalty"? Why is it okay for Sen. Webb to go on Smithsonian Channel, and talk about the Scots-Irish, their history, beliefs, and how that has effected them down to the present day. But if I want to discuss the history of blacks, it's a forbidden subject.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 05, 2012, 04:02:28 PM
Then why does it bother you? If your hands are clean and you harbor absolutely no guilt. The discussing it should be little more than an academic exercise.And I hold a "grudge" because I recall that it happened, and actually want to discuss it upon occasion? Would you feel better about the issue if I - or all blacks - pretended it never happened?
Never said we all weren't. Is discussing that part of history a sign of "disloyalty"? Why is it okay for Sen. Webb to go on Smithsonian Channel, and talk about the Scots-Irish, their history, beliefs, and how that has effected them down to the present day. But if I want to discuss the history of blacks, it's a forbidden subject.

There's nothing wrong with discussing slavery. What bothers me, is the rampant racism that goes on in this country right now..................................and it's not coming from white people. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

Wide open voter intimidation...................no prosecutions.
"Security" patrols stationed at polling places in Philly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU#)

Quote from: mdgiles on July 05, 2012, 12:20:45 PM
Let me give you a Holocaust analogy - and I saying up front that this isn't an exact analogy - whatever slavery was, or wasn't, it definitely wasn't industrialized mass murder. Let's say you are the descendant of Holocaust survivors and you're discussing it. And someone interjects that they also murdered Gypsies. What effect does that have on the overall horror of the Holocaust for Jews. How about if the bring up the fact that some Jews hid in the Wehrmacht and even the SS, the very people who were murdering the Jews. does that decrease it's significance? Holocaust deniers often use the talking point:" well the numbers are wrong". "They didn't kill six million Jews, only 4 million. And if they got that wrong how can we even be sure it ever happened". The implication being that the difference between six million and four million somehow negates the event. And when you first started the conversation, wouldn't you wonder why the subject of the Gypsies was even brought up? And what would be your mindset, if you received a "so, get over it", Stalin killed the Ukrainians and the Ottomans murdered the Armenians?

There is simply no comparison, so your analogy falls flat on it's face.
It's akin to fags linking their plight to slavery.
Weak doesn't even begin to cover it.
But nice try.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 05, 2012, 04:02:28 PM
Then why does it bother you? If your hands are clean and you harbor absolutely no guilt. The discussing it should be little more than an academic exercise.And I hold a "grudge" because I recall that it happened, and actually want to discuss it upon occasion? Would you feel better about the issue if I - or all blacks - pretended it never happened?
Never said we all weren't. Is discussing that part of history a sign of "disloyalty"? Why is it okay for Sen. Webb to go on Smithsonian Channel, and talk about the Scots-Irish, their history, beliefs, and how that has effected them down to the present day. But if I want to discuss the history of blacks, it's a forbidden subject.

I think it's how the issue is broached and presented.
For example:

QuoteChris Rock
    ✔
@chrisrock

Happy white peoples independence day the slaves weren't free but I'm sure they enjoyed fireworks

Quote from: Solar on July 05, 2012, 04:40:48 PM
I think it's how the issue is broached and presented.
For example:

The bitterness sounds a little odd, coming from a multimillionaire. Although, it's the divisive comments that come straight out of Washington, that really bother me. As president, Obama is supposed to be representing all of us.........................He has yet to show that he has anything but disdain for over half the country.

I also think that the practice of telling our young black people, (from birth), that they are victims of slavery, does both them, and our country, a great disservice.

Everyone agrees that slavery in the US was a horrible thing..........................and yes, thousands of white people gave their lives, specifically fighting the principle of enslaving other human beings. It's just not included in our history, because it doesn't fit the, "white people are bad" template.

As horrible as slavery was, generations of black people have been born as free US citizens as a result of it. Maybe not such a bad thing, when considering the conditions that many black people live under in Africa...................including modern day slavery and genocide.

Quote from: Solar on July 05, 2012, 04:22:44 PM
There is simply no comparison, so your analogy falls flat on it's face.
It's akin to fags linking their plight to slavery.
Weak doesn't even begin to cover it.
But nice try.

Interesting - and enlightening. Nothing on why the analogy has faults, just dismiss it out of hand.

QuoteI think it's how the issue is broached and presented.
For example:

QuoteChris Rock
        ✔
    @chrisrock

    Happy white peoples independence day the slaves weren't free but I'm sure they enjoyed fireworks

And the fact that he's pretty much historically correct, isn't the issue?  But the fact that he said it on the Fourth and ruined your day is?

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 04:12:46 AM
The bitterness sounds a little odd, coming from a multimillionaire.

And now that he's rich, he should forget everything his parents and grandparents told him, about the way they were treated?

QuoteAlthough, it's the divisive comments that come straight out of Washington, that really bother me. As president, Obama is supposed to be representing all of us.........................He has yet to show that he has anything but disdain for over half the country.

And you lump any comment on the history of the US along with those of the race hustlers and black nationalists. So any black man speaks for all black men? Heard me lump you in with David Duke or Aryan Nation recently? And on the subject of Obama, he is a half KENYAN and half white. He was raised by his white mother and grandparents. He was raised in Hawaii one of the "whiter" states in the union. I wouldn't doubt that for much of his life people thought he was a Pacific Islander. And then he comes to the states And gets dropped into the liberal atmosphere of college, where he wasn't known for associating with any of the black students. Obama went to Chicago, and sat in Rev Wrights pews for 20 years so he could "learn how to be black" without embarrassing himself in front of the blacks he needed for his political ambitions. As I have long since recognized, maybe because I can look past skin color,  Obama is a white radical who is using the old "one drop rule" to hide behind.

QuoteI also think that the practice of telling our young black people, (from birth), that they are victims of slavery, does both them, and our country, a great disservice.

They ARE the descendants of the victims of slavery and Jim Crow. You can't ask for historical amnesia. Pretending it never happened, only makes it more of an issue. Instead of suggesting that we "get over it" or "let bygones be bygones", why isn't the right countering with the other side of the story. Yes, there were slaves, BUT there were also efforts from the beginning to free them.

QuoteEveryone agrees that slavery in the US was a horrible thing..........................and yes, thousands of white people gave their lives, specifically fighting the principle of enslaving other human beings. It's just not included in our history, because it doesn't fit the, "white people are bad" template.

Then why has the right allowed the left to take over our educational system. You complain about what's being taught but do nothing to counter it. How are the facts supposed to be learned if they are not being taught. Why isn't the right pushing vouchers, in order to destroy the stranglehold the left has on education?

QuoteAs horrible as slavery was, generations of black people have been born as free US citizens as a result of it. Maybe not such a bad thing, when considering the conditions that many black people live under in Africa...................including modern day slavery and genocide.

Okay, somebody drags me out of my apartment. At the front door he turns me over to some other guys. These guys drag me down the street, to an empty lot and proceed to kick the crap out of me. Most of the time while they're kicking the crap out of me, I'm tied up. Eventually they untie me but continue to beat the crap out of me. One day they stop. And I look down the street at the apartment building I used to live in, and the building is burning down. A real five alarm blaze. Now the people who were kicking the crap out of me, want my everlasting thanks because they "saved" me from that burning building. Sound familiar.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 07:39:06 AM
Interesting - and enlightening. Nothing on why the analogy has faults, just dismiss it out of hand.

Mass murder, you call that a comparison?

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 07:44:42 AM
And the fact that he's pretty much historically correct, isn't the issue?  But the fact that he said it on the Fourth and ruined your day is?

Your racism is coming through loud and clear.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 08:59:10 AM
Mass murder, you call that a comparison?

Actually, I noted that major difference in the BOLDED first line. Still no comments on the analogy - which was aimed at the manner in which the subject is discussed, I see.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 09:00:08 AM
Your racism is coming through loud and clear.

If I were racist, I would be nowhere near as polite as I am. Simply because you wish black people would stop talking about history, doesn't make us "racist" when we don't follow your wishes.

So, in opposition to Rock, what meaning do YOU think those early independence celebrations had to those in bondage?

I think what Chris Rock said was stupid, insensitive, and sensational. The last is, I'm sure, what motivated him. As the famous Irish republican Brendan Behan once said, "There's no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary."

Look at me!!! Look at me!!!

The fact is that on July 4, 1776, hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of black Africans were in slave bondage in the United States. Another fact is that, on July 4, 2012, not one black African is in slave bondage in the United States, and not one has been in slave bondage for nearly 150 years. Another fact is that the Jim Crow laws that "perpetuated" black slavery in the United States (they of course did not, but that's another argument) were effectively crushed fifty years ago.

A mule once kicked my grandfather in the shins and injured him for life. I do not hate mules because that happened.

My own father would not allow my best childhood friend, Bobby Taylor, the drummer in our school orchestra, who happened to be black, to come to our house. He asked me, in his special tone of voice that let me know I was just not seeing the obvious, "Do you want him around your sisters?" I had no idea what he was talking about, and I still think he was a fool for thinking the way he did. (It's hilarious in retrospect... Bobby's dad was a very well-to-do doctor who lived in a Tudor monstrosity on a boulevard my dad could never have afforded in his life.) I loved my father, and treasure his memory, but the man was a racist, and tried his best to raise me that way.

But I don't hate my father, nor do I hate Bobby Taylor.

Chris Rock was raised in a nation that not only respects his status as a black American, but actually caters to it in very measurable ways. Because he was born here, and not on the continent of his ancestors, he is a very wealthy and successful man. Had he been born in Africa, the success he has achieved would have been unthinkable, unimaginable.

If Mr. Rock doesn't care for the way this country was founded, or for the status quo of his ancestors at that time, I would be at pains to point out to him that he's free to leave this country, at any time, forever. I'm sure his success will continue in Africa.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 09:18:20 AM
Actually, I noted that major difference in the BOLDED first line. Still no comments on the analogy - which was aimed at the manner in which the subject is discussed, I see.

Yeah, you first dismiss the comparison, then proceed to make the comparison.
There simply is no comparison to be made, it was mass murder on a grand scale, slavery was blacks selling other blacks into slavery.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 07:44:42 AM
And the fact that he's pretty much historically correct, isn't the issue?  But the fact that he said it on the Fourth and ruined your day is?

WOW, I can't believe your disconnect from reality.
Do you even have a clue as to what the 4th means, or are you just pretending stupid?

So am I to follow you correctly, you think the 4th is only for white people?

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 08:42:10 AM
And now that he's rich, he should forget everything his parents and grandparents told him, about the way they were treated?And you lump any comment on the history of the US along with those of the race hustlers and black nationalists. So any black man speaks for all black men? Heard me lump you in with David Duke or Aryan Nation recently? And on the subject of Obama, he is a half KENYAN and half white. He was raised by his white mother and grandparents. He was raised in Hawaii one of the "whiter" states in the union. I wouldn't doubt that for much of his life people thought he was a Pacific Islander. And then he comes to the states And gets dropped into the liberal atmosphere of college, where he wasn't known for associating with any of the black students. Obama went to Chicago, and sat in Rev Wrights pews for 20 years so he could "learn how to be black" without embarrassing himself in front of the blacks he needed for his political ambitions. As I have long since recognized, maybe because I can look past skin color,  Obama is a white radical who is using the old "one drop rule" to hide behind.
They ARE the descendants of the victims of slavery and Jim Crow. You can't ask for historical amnesia. Pretending it never happened, only makes it more of an issue. Instead of suggesting that we "get over it" or "let bygones be bygones", why isn't the right countering with the other side of the story. Yes, there were slaves, BUT there were also efforts from the beginning to free them.
Then why has the right allowed the left to take over our educational system. You complain about what's being taught but do nothing to counter it. How are the facts supposed to be learned if they are not being taught. Why isn't the right pushing vouchers, in order to destroy the stranglehold the left has on education?
Okay, somebody drags me out of my apartment. At the front door he turns me over to some other guys. These guys drag me down the street, to an empty lot and proceed to kick the crap out of me. Most of the time while they're kicking the crap out of me, I'm tied up. Eventually they untie me but continue to beat the crap out of me. One day they stop. And I look down the street at the apartment building I used to live in, and the building is burning down. A real five alarm blaze. Now the people who were kicking the crap out of me, want my everlasting thanks because they "saved" me from that burning building. Sound familiar.

I like you and I  enjoy most of your posts mdgiles. You've obviously got a non-healing wound over slavery. So I'm not gonna bother arguing with you. I'll just hope that you aren't passing on your attitude to young people. I don't know of one successful black person, that had parents that told them, that because of the color of their skin, they were born into victimhood in an unjust country.

The young black people that were raised by parents with a grudge, tend to have a grudge themselves..........................they also tend to go nowhere. The old school, white, racists are dying off, and not being replaced. Should we pretend that they never existed? No, but there's no need to keep the racism at the forefront of every conversation.

Slavery is an ugly chapter of US history. It's a shame that you, and so many others want to keep it on the front burner. It's not doing anyone a damned bit of good.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 12:24:27 PM
Yeah, you first dismiss the comparison, then proceed to make the comparison.
There simply is no comparison to be made, it was mass murder on a grand scale, slavery was blacks selling other blacks into slavery.

No I specifically noted, I wasn't speaking about the mass murder aspect. My analogy was on a discussion on that historical event - and having the conversation be pushed sideways on various tangents. I'll just assume you missed the point.

QuoteI think what Chris Rock said was stupid, insensitive, and sensational.

Okay why was it stupid? Who was it insensitive too?
Why was it sensational?

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
WOW, I can't believe your disconnect from reality.
Do you even have a clue as to what the 4th means, or are you just pretending stupid?

So am I to follow you correctly, you think the 4th is only for white people?

Actually no - no that we've also been allowed to lay claim to it - as we originally weren't. I know what the 4th means. Do you know the difference between between love and infatuation? Love is when you care deeply for someone or something despite what you recognize as faults. Infatuation is when you refuse to acknowledge they have any faults. I love my country, but I'm not infatuated with it.

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 01:14:50 PM
I like you and I  enjoy most of your posts mdgiles. You've obviously got a non-healing wound over slavery. So I'm not gonna bother arguing with you. I'll just hope that you aren't passing on your attitude to young people. I don't know of one successful black person, that had parents that told them, that because of the color of their skin, they were born into victimhood in an unjust country.

The young black people that were raised by parents with a grudge, tend to have a grudge themselves..........................they also tend to go nowhere. The old school, white, racists are dying off, and not being replaced. Should we pretend that they never existed? No, but there's no need to keep the racism at the forefront of every conversation.

Slavery is an ugly chapter of US history. It's a shame that you, and so many others want to keep it on the front burner. It's not doing anyone a damned bit of good.

What I can't be bothered with is people that wish black people would act as if they have historical amnesia. I have no grudges, remembering where you came from and how you came to be here, isn't a grudge. I don't recall ever donning the mantle of victim hood. I haven't asked for anything special nor demanded anything in the way of "repayment". But the idea that I should avoid bring up the past simply because it makes certain people uncomfortable, is asinine. It isn't "racism" when we are discussing something that actually happened. If you remember, this thread - WHICH I DIDN'T START - brought up the idea of white slavery in America I disputed that, until I indeed admitted that yes their were white slaves, but that they tended to be concentrated in the Caribbean and tend to be the losers in a number of political battles back in Great Britain. I also added that it never reached the level black slavery in the US. At which point we went off in another tangent - black slaveholders. The first cites were from white supremacist sites, at which point one of the posters provided some more reputable sites - which showed that the number of black slaveholders and their slaves, as compared to the number of white slaveholders and their slaves - was minuscule. At which point I asked why we were going off in these tangents. At that point I got the usual "blacks need to get over it". The past doesn't embarrass me or make me angry, I can't change it. However discussion of it seems to make some of the posters here very uncomfortable and/or angry. Take the Chris Rock statement for example, no one here has yet told me what he said that was incorrect, yet you are angry at him for saying it, why? I simply don't believe the problem is black people.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 02:15:54 PM
Actually no - no that we've also been allowed to lay claim to it - as we originally weren't. I know what the 4th means. Do you know the difference between between love and infatuation? Love is when you care deeply for someone or something despite what you recognize as faults. Infatuation is when you refuse to acknowledge they have any faults. I love my country, but I'm not infatuated with it.

This is like disowning Memorial day because it includes the Civil war.
Regardless of your "feelings" about past wars, all who fought deserve our respect in the end, they all wanted what was best for America.
Just like the Fourth, it is about independence from tyranny, we are all free because people wanted all men to be free and equal.
If you want to view it as a whites only celebration, that's your option, I prefer to celebrate as freedom for all.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 02:46:23 PM
This is like disowning Memorial day because it includes the Civil war.
Regardless of your "feelings" about past wars, all who fought deserve our respect in the end, they all wanted what was best for America.
Just like the Fourth, it is about independence from tyranny, we are all free because people wanted all men to be free and equal.
If you want to view it as a whites only celebration, that's your option, I prefer to celebrate as freedom for all.

You celebrate the 4th. But don't seem to appreciate Free Speech. What did Rock say that wasn't true? In truth I haven't read his entire statement. Did he say something else that was false. You know blacks have fought and died in every war this country has ever fought - even while we were being treated like shit on a stick. I'm getting tired of self style patriots, telling us - as in black folks us - that isn't enough. We also have to keep our mouths shut so all the people who treated us like shit on a stick, won't feel guilty about it. Unbelievable. People like you act as if the bad old days are centuries in the past. My late grandmother, who died in 1973 was the daughter of a man who was born a slave in North Carolina. And guess what, the bad old days of Jim Crow are within living memory of millions of blacks - like me. All of history has different meanings to different people. I'm sure the Anglo-Irish nobility who were pushed out Ireland, see things in a different light than the Irish who finally got that same nobility off their backs.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 02:38:36 PM
What I can't be bothered with is people that wish black people would act as if they have historical amnesia. I have no grudges, remembering where you came from and how you came to be here, isn't a grudge. I don't recall ever donning the mantle of victim hood. I haven't asked for anything special nor demanded anything in the way of "repayment". But the idea that I should avoid bring up the past simply because it makes certain people uncomfortable, is asinine. It isn't "racism" when we are discussing something that actually happened. If you remember, this thread - WHICH I DIDN'T START - brought up the idea of white slavery in America I disputed that, until I indeed admitted that yes their were white slaves, but that they tended to be concentrated in the Caribbean and tend to be the losers in a number of political battles back in Great Britain. I also added that it never reached the level black slavery in the US. At which point we went off in another tangent - black slaveholders. The first cites were from white supremacist sites, at which point one of the posters provided some more reputable sites - which showed that the number of black slaveholders and their slaves, as compared to the number of white slaveholders and their slaves - was minuscule. At which point I asked why we were going off in these tangents. At that point I got the usual "blacks need to get over it". The past doesn't embarrass me or make me angry, I can't change it. However discussion of it seems to make some of the posters here very uncomfortable and/or angry. Take the Chris Rock statement for example, no one here has yet told me what he said that was incorrect, yet you are angry at him for saying it, why? I simply don't believe the problem is black people.

I'm not angry at Chris Rock.................................hell, he's made his living throwing around the horrible, hurtful "N" word. Why would his latest tweet bug me. Not surprising at all. I stopped paying any attention to the "Hollywood" types long ago. They are a very stupid bunch of people.

Just say it..............your pissed off that slavery happened. There's nothing I can say or do to change that, or your attitude. I'm pissed off that it happened too.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 02:10:35 PM
Okay why was it stupid? Who was it insensitive too?
Why was it sensational?

It was stupid because it serves no logical or practical purpose, and can only cause resentment and harm. As an exercise in free speech, it ranks right up there with Bill Maher's typical output.

It was insensitive to anyone who read or heard it, in the way that many of the Hollywood and entertainment crowd are routinely 'sensitivity-impaired,' if you will -- detached from the mainstream, insulated from the everyday world, and too rich to give a shit about it. "I can say anything I want, 'cause those assholes will keep buying my shit no matter what I say." Sad to say, people like him are often right. I honestly wouldn't piss on Chris Rock if he was on fire, but that's just me.  :tounge:

It was sensational in the sense that it's over a line that most decent people have drawn on the subject of slavery. Yes, slavery was awful, but that was 150 years ago. There comes a time to just move on, and most people have done so. I'm nearly 60, and slavery might have been a reality for my great-great-grandfather -- whom I never even met because he had been dead for 50 years before I was born -- but it doesn't touch my life, and it certainly has never touched Chris Rock, except in his mind. The likes of him stooping this low is a car-wreck spectacle, a sensational case of a VERY fortunate product of modern America shitting on his own doorstep.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 03:44:28 PM
You celebrate the 4th. But don't seem to appreciate Free Speech. What did Rock say that wasn't true?

He's free, isn't he?

QuoteIn truth I haven't read his entire statement. Did he say something else that was false. You know blacks have fought and died in every war this country has ever fought - even while we were being treated like shit on a stick. I'm getting tired of self style patriots, telling us - as in black folks us - that isn't enough. We also have to keep our mouths shut so all the people who treated us like shit on a stick, won't feel guilty about it. Unbelievable. People like you act as if the bad old days are centuries in the past. My late grandmother, who died in 1973 was the daughter of a man who was born a slave in North Carolina. And guess what, the bad old days of Jim Crow are within living memory of millions of blacks - like me. All of history has different meanings to different people. I'm sure the Anglo-Irish nobility who were pushed out Ireland, see things in a different light than the Irish who finally got that same nobility off their backs.

So tell me Giles, how have you been mistreated?
I'll bet you for every example you give, I can give you ten bad events where I was mistreated.
When you're ready to quit blaming others, and accept the fact that life simply isn't fair, then, and only then will you be able to move on.
If you want to live as a victim, fine, I really don't give a damn, but I'll tell ya, for as badly as I was mistreated, I hold no animosity, for it made me a stronger man.
Life's a bitch, get over it!

The day I really get pissed, is the day Chris Rock can't make a living off the "N" word, or spew his anti whitey crap on the internet.

I'll be pissed, but I won't be able to express it. Because this site, along with many others, will be gone.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 04:52:19 PM
He's free, isn't he?

Were his ancestors free on July 4th, 1776? How about July 4th,  1783? 1800 to 1865? You want to celebrate a day in the past, but resent having someone point out that past differed for their ancestors. That on that great day for freedom, they weren't free.

QuoteSo tell me Giles, how have you been mistreated?
I'll bet you for every example you give, I can give you ten bad events where I was mistreated.
When you're ready to quit blaming others, and accept the fact that life simply isn't fair, then, and only then will you be able to move on.
If you want to live as a victim, fine, I really don't give a damn, but I'll tell ya, for as badly as I was mistreated, I hold no animosity, for it made me a stronger man.
Life's a bitch, get over it!

And you still cannot get it through your head that being aware of the past is not living in the past. So do you advise Holocaust survivors or their children to "get over it". How about writing letters to the Israeli government and advise them they should "get over" those problems they're having with the Palestinians. Maybe you could contact the Dahlia Lama, and tell he really should "get over" the Chinese occupying his country. How about Poles "getting over" their inordinate fear of the Russians? For some reason, you recognize that making that suggestion, in any one of those other cases would be seen as arrogant and insulting. But you never hesitate to make it to blacks.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 05:34:04 PM
Were his ancestors free on July 4th, 1776? How about July 4th,  1783? 1800 to 1865? You want to celebrate a day in the past, but resent having someone point out that past differed for their ancestors. That on that great day for freedom, they weren't free.And you still cannot get it through your head that being aware of the past is not living in the past. So do you advise Holocaust survivors or their children to "get over it". How about writing letters to the Israeli government and advise them they should "get over" those problems they're having with the Palestinians. Maybe you could contact the Dahlia Lama, and tell he really should "get over" the Chinese occupying his country. How about Poles "getting over" their inordinate fear of the Russians? For some reason, you recognize that making that suggestion, in any one of those other cases would be seen as arrogant and insulting. But you never hesitate to make it to blacks.

Um, prior to July 4, 1776, no one on the planet was free. There were the rulers, and to some extent, everyone else lived under some degree of slavery. To make slavery into an American invention is pure bullshit. It's the way the world worked back then.

I'm getting real damned tired of having the back of America whipped, because slavery occurred here.
Do your homework.................................do you think the pyramids were built by people making minimum wage in a union job?
How would you like to fight to the death in the Roman  Coliseum? Just for entertainment. Those were white people, or anyone that came along.

If you're unwilling to forgive America for slavery................................move.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 05:34:04 PM
Were his ancestors free on July 4th, 1776? How about July 4th,  1783? 1800 to 1865? You want to celebrate a day in the past, but resent having someone point out that past differed for their ancestors. That on that great day for freedom, they weren't free.

Let me spell it out.
Had it not been for the vision of OUR Founders, he as well as you and I may very well be living in slavery today.
So yes, he be thanking this country, rather than blaming it for making him free and rich.

QuoteAnd you still cannot get it through your head that being aware of the past is not living in the past. So do you advise Holocaust survivors or their children to "get over it". How about writing letters to the Israeli government and advise them they should "get over" those problems they're having with the Palestinians. Maybe you could contact the Dahlia Lama, and tell he really should "get over" the Chinese occupying his country. How about Poles "getting over" their inordinate fear of the Russians? For some reason, you recognize that making that suggestion, in any one of those other cases would be seen as arrogant and insulting. But you never hesitate to make it to blacks.

My family are holocaust survivors, but so what, they lived and went on to have families.
In prospering, they thumbed their noses at those that tried to eradicate them from the face of the earth.
Difference in you and me? I wear it as a badge of honor, you on the other hand want to claim victim status.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 06:02:25 PM
Let me spell it out.
Had it not been for the vision of OUR Founders, he as well as you and I may very well be living in slavery today.
So yes, he be thanking this country, rather than blaming it for making him free and rich.
My family are holocaust survivors, but so what, they lived and went on to have families.
In prospering, they thumbed their noses at those that tried to eradicate them from the face of the earth.
Difference in you and me? I wear it as a badge of honor, you on the other hand want to claim victim status.

Too many people have died from/for this country, (white, black, and of all religions), for us to be the whipping boy of the planet. Obama's continuing apology tour makes me sick to my stomach. The people that hate this country, should simply move to another location. Problem fucking solved.

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 05:54:56 PM
Um, prior to July 4, 1776, no one on the planet was free. There were the rulers, and to some extent, everyone else lived under some degree of slavery. To make slavery into an American invention is pure bullshit. It's the way the world worked back then.

I'm getting real damned tired of having the back of America whipped, because slavery occurred here.
Do your homework.................................do you think the pyramids were built by people making minimum wage in a union job?
How would you like to fight to the death in the Roman  Coliseum? Just for entertainment. Those were white people, or anyone that came along.

If you're unwilling to forgive America for slavery................................move.

America was the place that was supposed to believe in freedom remember. So their hypocrisy was particularly blatant.

QuoteDr. Samuel Johnson's question, "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty from the drivers of Negroes?"

Saying that's just the way things were, is no excuse because they were supposed to be better than that. It was America that laid out the standards - and then didn't live up to them. Oh, and the pyramids were built by peasants who were paid in grain and beer, and built for the glory of their God King.

Oh, I don't have to forgive America for slavery, America has to forgive itself. If America had forgiven itself, slavery would be no more than a historical fact.

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 06:11:47 PM
Too many people have died from/for this country, (white, black, and of all religions), for us to be the whipping boy of the planet. Obama's continuing apology tour makes me sick to my stomach. The people that hate this country, should simply move to another location. Problem fucking solved.

According to Giles, were supposed to feel guilty for for being white, I guess.
What's that about paying for you fathers debt? In this case, great grand fathers debt, except for the fact that my family wasn't even here then.

If America had forgiven itself, slavery would be no more than a historical fact.

Well there you go. Excellent observation. It's people like you, that prevent that from happening. You, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Obama, Reverend Wright..........................the list goes on. I hope you're proud of the club you belong to.

Nice work!!!!

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 06:43:38 PM
If America had forgiven itself, slavery would be no more than a historical fact.

Well there you go. Excellent observation. It's people like you, that prevent that from happening. You, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Obama, Reverend Wright..........................the list goes on. I hope you're proud of the club you belong to.

Nice work!!!!

Actually, I think Giles' observation is marvelously clear and accurate. It's actually true that if America could forgive itself, it would be over. But our failure to do so has led to our government doing wrong and stupid things, like racial quotas, like fighting simple little things like Voter ID, and so on. Government can only act to change people's behavior -- in and of itself a thing government SHOULD NOT DO. But what government can never do is change the way people think.

I have to say that lumping Giles in with Jackson, Sharpton, etc. was pretty crude. The man has posted here over three THOUSAND times, and I've been here for every one of 'em. He does not fit in with that group.

Quote from: tbone0106 on July 06, 2012, 06:50:29 PM
Actually, I think Giles' observation is marvelously clear and accurate. It's actually true that if America could forgive itself, it would be over. But our failure to do so has led to our government doing wrong and stupid things, like racial quotas, like fighting simple little things like Voter ID, and so on. Government can only act to change people's behavior -- in and of itself a thing government SHOULD NOT DO. But what government can never do is change the way people think.

I have to say that lumping Giles in with Jackson, Sharpton, etc. was pretty crude. The man has posted here over three THOUSAND times, and I've been here for every one of 'em. He does not fit in with that group.

Personally I think Giles has a good head on him, it's the deep seated anger that clouds his vision at times.

Quote from: tbone0106 on July 06, 2012, 06:50:29 PM
Actually, I think Giles' observation is marvelously clear and accurate. It's actually true that if America could forgive itself, it would be over. But our failure to do so has led to our government doing wrong and stupid things, like racial quotas, like fighting simple little things like Voter ID, and so on. Government can only act to change people's behavior -- in and of itself a thing government SHOULD NOT DO. But what government can never do is change the way people think.

I have to say that lumping Giles in with Jackson, Sharpton, etc. was pretty crude. The man has posted here over three THOUSAND times, and I've been here for every one of 'em. He does not fit in with that group.

I do tend to get crude at times.................for a reason. There is obviously nothing I can say or do to help Giles get past this. On this particular subject, he sounds very similar to the people I mentioned. Sometimes the truth sucks.

Has America done bad shit? Yep.

I'm tired of seeing her being beaten down for it. One of these days, she's not gonna be able to get back up. My aim is to prevent that day from getting here.

I'll be as crude as I need to be.

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 07:16:50 PM
I do tend to get crude at times.................for a reason. There is obviously nothing I can say or do to help Giles get past this. On this particular subject, he sounds very similar to the people I mentioned. Sometimes the truth sucks.

Has America done bad shit? Yep.

I'm tired of seeing her being beaten down for it. One of these days, she's not gonna be able to get back up. My aim is to prevent that day from getting here.

I'll be as crude as I need to be.

What I should have said is that Giles' observation -- that if America could just forgive herself, it would all be over -- is not only clear and accurate, but serves perfectly to separate Giles from Sharpton, Jackson, etc. Those race-mongers would never allow that fact to slip past their lips. It would endanger their meal ticket -- race baiting. Giles understands this and has stated so many times on this board.

In my opinion, the US isn't being "beaten down" as much as she's being DRAGGED down from within. Too many takers. Too much government. Too many taxes on too many things. We're nearing the state where the only solution will be revolution, and I do NOT want to go there.

Quote from: tbone0106 on July 06, 2012, 07:27:40 PM
What I should have said is that Giles' observation -- that if America could just forgive herself, it would all be over -- is not only clear and accurate, but serves perfectly to separate Giles from Sharpton, Jackson, etc. Those race-mongers would never allow that fact to slip past their lips. It would endanger their meal ticket -- race baiting. Giles understands this and has stated so many times on this board.

In my opinion, the US isn't being "beaten down" as much as she's being DRAGGED down from within. Too many takers. Too much government. Too many taxes on too many things. We're nearing the state where the only solution will be revolution, and I do NOT want to go there.

Read Giles' posts on this thread....................................it's quite obviously not over for him. I don't even really blame him for feeling the way he does. It's just unfortunate. Maybe I'll live to see the day that those feelings no longer exist, but I doubt it.

As far as revolution, a resurgence of common sense and personal responsibility would work for me. Oh..........and getting rid of Obama. We're not Marxists.

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 07:44:18 PM
Read Giles' posts on this thread....................................it's quite obviously not over for him. I don't even really blame him for feeling the way he does. It's just unfortunate. Maybe I'll live to see the day that those feelings no longer exist, but I doubt it.

As far as revolution, a resurgence of common sense and personal responsibility would work for me. Oh..........and getting rid of Obama. We're not Marxists.

I read every post, and I'm not saying that Giles ain't full of shit sometimes -- we all are, me most especially, and you too, on occasion. Giles will, I'm sure, happily agree with what I just said. But I am saying that Giles is a poster of long standing and stellar history, and one that I have argued with bitterly, but still consider my online friend. Disagreement is one thing, but lumping ANYONE in with Sharpton, Jackson, etc., is the equivalent of setting off a nuke. That's tossing someone bodily down the basement stairs and locking the door behind him.

Yes, Dear Leader must go, but he is not a Marxist. He is a socialist and a wannabe revolutionary with a nice suit and a couple teleprompters. He is Cloward-Piven standing upright. He is lawlessness personified. He is a stain on the history of the United States.

Quote from: tbone0106 on July 06, 2012, 07:27:40 PM
What I should have said is that Giles' observation -- that if America could just forgive herself, it would all be over -- is not only clear and accurate, but serves perfectly to separate Giles from Sharpton, Jackson, etc. Those race-mongers would never allow that fact to slip past their lips. It would endanger their meal ticket -- race baiting. Giles understands this and has stated so many times on this board.

In my opinion, the US isn't being "beaten down" as much as she's being DRAGGED down from within. Too many takers. Too much government. Too many taxes on too many things. We're nearing the state where the only solution will be revolution, and I do NOT want to go there.

And how do you propose America get over this?
Let's call a spade a spade here, America did her part, she ended slavery, the onus is is on the black community to forgive and move on.
Can you imagine what kind of mess Japan would be in, had they not moved on, or the Jews, for that matter?

There are two options here and only two, live with hatred and animosity, or forgive and begin the healing process.

Quote from: tbone0106 on July 06, 2012, 08:03:44 PM
I read every post, and I'm not saying that Giles ain't full of shit sometimes -- we all are, me most especially, and you too, on occasion. Giles will, I'm sure, happily agree with what I just said. But I am saying that Giles is a poster of long standing and stellar history, and one that I have argued with bitterly, but still consider my online friend. Disagreement is one thing, but lumping ANYONE in with Sharpton, Jackson, etc., is the equivalent of setting off a nuke. That's tossing someone bodily down the basement stairs and locking the door behind him.

Yes, Dear Leader must go, but he is not a Marxist. He is a socialist and a wannabe revolutionary with a nice suit and a couple teleprompters. He is Cloward-Piven standing upright. He is lawlessness personified. He is a stain on the history of the United States.

Actually T, he is a Marxist, he is what is known as the new Marxists.
Formed on the day of Marx death, a new party was born, they called themselves Fabian Socialists.
What set them apart from pure Marxism, was they understood that people would never accept Marxism in it's current form, so they threw off the brutality, but that's all.
Aside from that one feature, they are by all accounts, full blown Marxists.

Quote from: tbone0106 on July 06, 2012, 08:03:44 PM
I read every post, and I'm not saying that Giles ain't full of shit sometimes -- we all are, me most especially, and you too, on occasion. Giles will, I'm sure, happily agree with what I just said. But I am saying that Giles is a poster of long standing and stellar history, and one that I have argued with bitterly, but still consider my online friend. Disagreement is one thing, but lumping ANYONE in with Sharpton, Jackson, etc., is the equivalent of setting off a nuke. That's tossing someone bodily down the basement stairs and locking the door behind him.

Yes, Dear Leader must go, but he is not a Marxist. He is a socialist and a wannabe revolutionary with a nice suit and a couple teleprompters. He is Cloward-Piven standing upright. He is lawlessness personified. He is a stain on the history of the United States.

Aw c'mon. Fighting with Giles was one of my first experiences here. If he's lasted through 3000 posts, I seriously doubt that he feels threatened by my nuke. If I know Giles at all, he's probably more pissed off that you feel the need to rush to his defense. :wink:

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 08:23:27 PM
Aw c'mon. Fighting with Giles was one of my first experiences here. If he's lasted through 3000 posts, I seriously doubt that he feels threatened by my nuke. If I know Giles at all, he's probably more pissed off that you feel the need to rush to his defense. :wink:

I agree, Giles does just fine on his own.
I may give him shit, but by God, he's one Hell of an asset to this forum.
I'd take a dozen just like him any day. :thumbup:

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 08:18:07 PM
And how do you propose America get over this?
Let's call a spade a spade here, America did her part, she ended slavery, the onus is is on the black community to forgive and move on.
Can you imagine what kind of mess Japan would be in, had they not moved on, or the Jews, for that matter?

There are two options here and only two, live with hatred and animosity, or forgive and begin the healing process.

Wow. This is a HUGE subject upon which many of us will have varying views. I liked the way Giles said it, but I'm not an expert on how to make it happen.

I know this much -- it's not a matter of blacks forgiving whites for slavery; it's a matter of whites forgiving themselves for slavery. Blacks didn't put into place the Jim Crow laws that governed society, especially in the south, for nearly 100 years after the Civil War; whites did. Blacks didn't enact the Civil Rights Act or any of the other crap that has tilted our playing field so radically the other way for 50 years; whites did. Blacks didn't create the welfare structure that has systematically destroyed black culture; whites did. Guilt-ridden overreaction is the realm of whites, not blacks, and that's what still powers our racial discourse and PC language today.

This is why whites are scared literally shitless of being seen as even mildly racist, or of making a boo-boo comment that might lead the easily-led to believe -- under the ever-present guiding hand of the MSM -- that they're racist at heart. This is why ONLY blacks get an absolutely free pass when it comes to racism, a rather bizarre principle that is being put into force by Eric Holder's Department of Justice.

See the nice men at the polling place? (I especially like the fellow with the billy club.)

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1103.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg463%2Ftbone0106%2Fblack-panther1.jpg&hash=506e8818160591723f271c5956226090c7c4e0e3)

A plainer, clearer case of voter intimidation has never been presented to the Federal Elections Commission or the Department of Justice, yet the case was dismissed -- after it had been won, and was in the sentencing phase -- by Dear Leader's DoJ. No other case of any sort has been so dismissed. AG Holder has referred to "my people" when talking about his legal philosophy, and clearly "his people" were protected in this case. Former DoJ attorneys have testified that, simply stated, the DoJ under Holder and Dear Leader will not prosecute a black person in a voter rights case, period.

It's not hard to figure out who's the racist in this story. (I wish it were a story.) But this sort of shit passes and happens precisely because white America has not forgiven itself for slavery, and because there are plenty of folks still crawling around on Earth who make their living performing CPR on slavery.

Quote from: tbone0106 on July 06, 2012, 08:51:42 PM
Wow. This is a HUGE subject upon which many of us will have varying views. I liked the way Giles said it, but I'm not an expert on how to make it happen.

I know this much -- it's not a matter of blacks forgiving whites for slavery; it's a matter of whites forgiving themselves for slavery. Blacks didn't put into place the Jim Crow laws that governed society, especially in the south, for nearly 100 years after the Civil War; whites did. Blacks didn't enact the Civil Rights Act or any of the other crap that has tilted our playing field so radically the other way for 50 years; whites did. Blacks didn't create the welfare structure that has systematically destroyed black culture; whites did. Guilt-ridden overreaction is the realm of whites, not blacks, and that's what still powers our racial discourse and PC language today.

This is why whites are scared literally shitless of being seen as even mildly racist, or of making a boo-boo comment that might lead the easily-led to believe -- under the ever-present guiding hand of the MSM -- that they're racist at heart. This is why ONLY blacks get an absolutely free pass when it comes to racism, a rather bizarre principle that is being put into force by Eric Holder's Department of Justice.

See the nice men at the polling place? (I especially like the fellow with the billy club.)

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1103.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg463%2Ftbone0106%2Fblack-panther1.jpg&hash=506e8818160591723f271c5956226090c7c4e0e3)

A plainer, clearer case of voter intimidation has never been presented to the Federal Elections Commission or the Department of Justice, yet the case was dismissed -- after it had been won, and was in the sentencing phase -- by Dear Leader's DoJ. No other case of any sort has been so dismissed. AG Holder has referred to "my people" when talking about his legal philosophy, and clearly "his people" were protected in this case. Former DoJ attorneys have testified that, simply stated, the DoJ under Holder and Dear Leader will not prosecute a black person in a voter rights case, period.

It's not hard to figure out who's the racist in this story. (I wish it were a story.) But this sort of shit passes and happens precisely because white America has not forgiven itself for slavery, and because there are plenty of folks still crawling around on Earth who make their living performing CPR on slavery.

Which is exactly why blacks have to forgive, so these white libs can stop feeling guilty.
It's a vicious circle that feeds upon itself.

Quote from: tbone0106 on July 06, 2012, 08:51:42 PM
Wow. This is a HUGE subject upon which many of us will have varying views. I liked the way Giles said it, but I'm not an expert on how to make it happen.

I know this much -- it's not a matter of blacks forgiving whites for slavery; it's a matter of whites forgiving themselves for slavery. Blacks didn't put into place the Jim Crow laws that governed society, especially in the south, for nearly 100 years after the Civil War; whites did. Blacks didn't enact the Civil Rights Act or any of the other crap that has tilted our playing field so radically the other way for 50 years; whites did. Blacks didn't create the welfare structure that has systematically destroyed black culture; whites did. Guilt-ridden overreaction is the realm of whites, not blacks, and that's what still powers our racial discourse and PC language today.

This is why whites are scared literally shitless of being seen as even mildly racist, or of making a boo-boo comment that might lead the easily-led to believe -- under the ever-present guiding hand of the MSM -- that they're racist at heart. This is why ONLY blacks get an absolutely free pass when it comes to racism, a rather bizarre principle that is being put into force by Eric Holder's Department of Justice.

See the nice men at the polling place? (I especially like the fellow with the billy club.)

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1103.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg463%2Ftbone0106%2Fblack-panther1.jpg&hash=506e8818160591723f271c5956226090c7c4e0e3)

A plainer, clearer case of voter intimidation has never been presented to the Federal Elections Commission or the Department of Justice, yet the case was dismissed -- after it had been won, and was in the sentencing phase -- by Dear Leader's DoJ. No other case of any sort has been so dismissed. AG Holder has referred to "my people" when talking about his legal philosophy, and clearly "his people" were protected in this case. Former DoJ attorneys have testified that, simply stated, the DoJ under Holder and Dear Leader will not prosecute a black person in a voter rights case, period.

It's not hard to figure out who's the racist in this story. (I wish it were a story.) But this sort of shit passes and happens precisely because white America has not forgiven itself for slavery, and because there are plenty of folks still crawling around on Earth who make their living performing CPR on slavery.

This is not a huge subject.

4 words

Personal Responsibility.
Government Out.

I could go on, but I believe those 4 words pretty much cover it.

If I see anyone with clubs when I go to vote next time. I don't give a fuck if it's skinheads or black panthers.....................we're gonna have a serious problem.