I think what Chris Rock said was stupid, insensitive, and sensational. The last is, I'm sure, what motivated him. As the famous Irish republican Brendan Behan once said, "There's no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary."

Look at me!!! Look at me!!!

The fact is that on July 4, 1776, hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of black Africans were in slave bondage in the United States. Another fact is that, on July 4, 2012, not one black African is in slave bondage in the United States, and not one has been in slave bondage for nearly 150 years. Another fact is that the Jim Crow laws that "perpetuated" black slavery in the United States (they of course did not, but that's another argument) were effectively crushed fifty years ago.

A mule once kicked my grandfather in the shins and injured him for life. I do not hate mules because that happened.

My own father would not allow my best childhood friend, Bobby Taylor, the drummer in our school orchestra, who happened to be black, to come to our house. He asked me, in his special tone of voice that let me know I was just not seeing the obvious, "Do you want him around your sisters?" I had no idea what he was talking about, and I still think he was a fool for thinking the way he did. (It's hilarious in retrospect... Bobby's dad was a very well-to-do doctor who lived in a Tudor monstrosity on a boulevard my dad could never have afforded in his life.) I loved my father, and treasure his memory, but the man was a racist, and tried his best to raise me that way.

But I don't hate my father, nor do I hate Bobby Taylor.

Chris Rock was raised in a nation that not only respects his status as a black American, but actually caters to it in very measurable ways. Because he was born here, and not on the continent of his ancestors, he is a very wealthy and successful man. Had he been born in Africa, the success he has achieved would have been unthinkable, unimaginable.

If Mr. Rock doesn't care for the way this country was founded, or for the status quo of his ancestors at that time, I would be at pains to point out to him that he's free to leave this country, at any time, forever. I'm sure his success will continue in Africa.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 09:18:20 AM
Actually, I noted that major difference in the BOLDED first line. Still no comments on the analogy - which was aimed at the manner in which the subject is discussed, I see.

Yeah, you first dismiss the comparison, then proceed to make the comparison.
There simply is no comparison to be made, it was mass murder on a grand scale, slavery was blacks selling other blacks into slavery.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 07:44:42 AM
And the fact that he's pretty much historically correct, isn't the issue?  But the fact that he said it on the Fourth and ruined your day is?

WOW, I can't believe your disconnect from reality.
Do you even have a clue as to what the 4th means, or are you just pretending stupid?

So am I to follow you correctly, you think the 4th is only for white people?

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 08:42:10 AM
And now that he's rich, he should forget everything his parents and grandparents told him, about the way they were treated?And you lump any comment on the history of the US along with those of the race hustlers and black nationalists. So any black man speaks for all black men? Heard me lump you in with David Duke or Aryan Nation recently? And on the subject of Obama, he is a half KENYAN and half white. He was raised by his white mother and grandparents. He was raised in Hawaii one of the "whiter" states in the union. I wouldn't doubt that for much of his life people thought he was a Pacific Islander. And then he comes to the states And gets dropped into the liberal atmosphere of college, where he wasn't known for associating with any of the black students. Obama went to Chicago, and sat in Rev Wrights pews for 20 years so he could "learn how to be black" without embarrassing himself in front of the blacks he needed for his political ambitions. As I have long since recognized, maybe because I can look past skin color,  Obama is a white radical who is using the old "one drop rule" to hide behind.
They ARE the descendants of the victims of slavery and Jim Crow. You can't ask for historical amnesia. Pretending it never happened, only makes it more of an issue. Instead of suggesting that we "get over it" or "let bygones be bygones", why isn't the right countering with the other side of the story. Yes, there were slaves, BUT there were also efforts from the beginning to free them.
Then why has the right allowed the left to take over our educational system. You complain about what's being taught but do nothing to counter it. How are the facts supposed to be learned if they are not being taught. Why isn't the right pushing vouchers, in order to destroy the stranglehold the left has on education?
Okay, somebody drags me out of my apartment. At the front door he turns me over to some other guys. These guys drag me down the street, to an empty lot and proceed to kick the crap out of me. Most of the time while they're kicking the crap out of me, I'm tied up. Eventually they untie me but continue to beat the crap out of me. One day they stop. And I look down the street at the apartment building I used to live in, and the building is burning down. A real five alarm blaze. Now the people who were kicking the crap out of me, want my everlasting thanks because they "saved" me from that burning building. Sound familiar.

I like you and I  enjoy most of your posts mdgiles. You've obviously got a non-healing wound over slavery. So I'm not gonna bother arguing with you. I'll just hope that you aren't passing on your attitude to young people. I don't know of one successful black person, that had parents that told them, that because of the color of their skin, they were born into victimhood in an unjust country.

The young black people that were raised by parents with a grudge, tend to have a grudge themselves..........................they also tend to go nowhere. The old school, white, racists are dying off, and not being replaced. Should we pretend that they never existed? No, but there's no need to keep the racism at the forefront of every conversation.

Slavery is an ugly chapter of US history. It's a shame that you, and so many others want to keep it on the front burner. It's not doing anyone a damned bit of good.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 12:24:27 PM
Yeah, you first dismiss the comparison, then proceed to make the comparison.
There simply is no comparison to be made, it was mass murder on a grand scale, slavery was blacks selling other blacks into slavery.

No I specifically noted, I wasn't speaking about the mass murder aspect. My analogy was on a discussion on that historical event - and having the conversation be pushed sideways on various tangents. I'll just assume you missed the point.

QuoteI think what Chris Rock said was stupid, insensitive, and sensational.

Okay why was it stupid? Who was it insensitive too?
Why was it sensational?

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
WOW, I can't believe your disconnect from reality.
Do you even have a clue as to what the 4th means, or are you just pretending stupid?

So am I to follow you correctly, you think the 4th is only for white people?

Actually no - no that we've also been allowed to lay claim to it - as we originally weren't. I know what the 4th means. Do you know the difference between between love and infatuation? Love is when you care deeply for someone or something despite what you recognize as faults. Infatuation is when you refuse to acknowledge they have any faults. I love my country, but I'm not infatuated with it.

Quote from: kramarat on July 06, 2012, 01:14:50 PM
I like you and I  enjoy most of your posts mdgiles. You've obviously got a non-healing wound over slavery. So I'm not gonna bother arguing with you. I'll just hope that you aren't passing on your attitude to young people. I don't know of one successful black person, that had parents that told them, that because of the color of their skin, they were born into victimhood in an unjust country.

The young black people that were raised by parents with a grudge, tend to have a grudge themselves..........................they also tend to go nowhere. The old school, white, racists are dying off, and not being replaced. Should we pretend that they never existed? No, but there's no need to keep the racism at the forefront of every conversation.

Slavery is an ugly chapter of US history. It's a shame that you, and so many others want to keep it on the front burner. It's not doing anyone a damned bit of good.

What I can't be bothered with is people that wish black people would act as if they have historical amnesia. I have no grudges, remembering where you came from and how you came to be here, isn't a grudge. I don't recall ever donning the mantle of victim hood. I haven't asked for anything special nor demanded anything in the way of "repayment". But the idea that I should avoid bring up the past simply because it makes certain people uncomfortable, is asinine. It isn't "racism" when we are discussing something that actually happened. If you remember, this thread - WHICH I DIDN'T START - brought up the idea of white slavery in America I disputed that, until I indeed admitted that yes their were white slaves, but that they tended to be concentrated in the Caribbean and tend to be the losers in a number of political battles back in Great Britain. I also added that it never reached the level black slavery in the US. At which point we went off in another tangent - black slaveholders. The first cites were from white supremacist sites, at which point one of the posters provided some more reputable sites - which showed that the number of black slaveholders and their slaves, as compared to the number of white slaveholders and their slaves - was minuscule. At which point I asked why we were going off in these tangents. At that point I got the usual "blacks need to get over it". The past doesn't embarrass me or make me angry, I can't change it. However discussion of it seems to make some of the posters here very uncomfortable and/or angry. Take the Chris Rock statement for example, no one here has yet told me what he said that was incorrect, yet you are angry at him for saying it, why? I simply don't believe the problem is black people.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 02:15:54 PM
Actually no - no that we've also been allowed to lay claim to it - as we originally weren't. I know what the 4th means. Do you know the difference between between love and infatuation? Love is when you care deeply for someone or something despite what you recognize as faults. Infatuation is when you refuse to acknowledge they have any faults. I love my country, but I'm not infatuated with it.

This is like disowning Memorial day because it includes the Civil war.
Regardless of your "feelings" about past wars, all who fought deserve our respect in the end, they all wanted what was best for America.
Just like the Fourth, it is about independence from tyranny, we are all free because people wanted all men to be free and equal.
If you want to view it as a whites only celebration, that's your option, I prefer to celebrate as freedom for all.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 02:46:23 PM
This is like disowning Memorial day because it includes the Civil war.
Regardless of your "feelings" about past wars, all who fought deserve our respect in the end, they all wanted what was best for America.
Just like the Fourth, it is about independence from tyranny, we are all free because people wanted all men to be free and equal.
If you want to view it as a whites only celebration, that's your option, I prefer to celebrate as freedom for all.

You celebrate the 4th. But don't seem to appreciate Free Speech. What did Rock say that wasn't true? In truth I haven't read his entire statement. Did he say something else that was false. You know blacks have fought and died in every war this country has ever fought - even while we were being treated like shit on a stick. I'm getting tired of self style patriots, telling us - as in black folks us - that isn't enough. We also have to keep our mouths shut so all the people who treated us like shit on a stick, won't feel guilty about it. Unbelievable. People like you act as if the bad old days are centuries in the past. My late grandmother, who died in 1973 was the daughter of a man who was born a slave in North Carolina. And guess what, the bad old days of Jim Crow are within living memory of millions of blacks - like me. All of history has different meanings to different people. I'm sure the Anglo-Irish nobility who were pushed out Ireland, see things in a different light than the Irish who finally got that same nobility off their backs.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 02:38:36 PM
What I can't be bothered with is people that wish black people would act as if they have historical amnesia. I have no grudges, remembering where you came from and how you came to be here, isn't a grudge. I don't recall ever donning the mantle of victim hood. I haven't asked for anything special nor demanded anything in the way of "repayment". But the idea that I should avoid bring up the past simply because it makes certain people uncomfortable, is asinine. It isn't "racism" when we are discussing something that actually happened. If you remember, this thread - WHICH I DIDN'T START - brought up the idea of white slavery in America I disputed that, until I indeed admitted that yes their were white slaves, but that they tended to be concentrated in the Caribbean and tend to be the losers in a number of political battles back in Great Britain. I also added that it never reached the level black slavery in the US. At which point we went off in another tangent - black slaveholders. The first cites were from white supremacist sites, at which point one of the posters provided some more reputable sites - which showed that the number of black slaveholders and their slaves, as compared to the number of white slaveholders and their slaves - was minuscule. At which point I asked why we were going off in these tangents. At that point I got the usual "blacks need to get over it". The past doesn't embarrass me or make me angry, I can't change it. However discussion of it seems to make some of the posters here very uncomfortable and/or angry. Take the Chris Rock statement for example, no one here has yet told me what he said that was incorrect, yet you are angry at him for saying it, why? I simply don't believe the problem is black people.

I'm not angry at Chris Rock.................................hell, he's made his living throwing around the horrible, hurtful "N" word. Why would his latest tweet bug me. Not surprising at all. I stopped paying any attention to the "Hollywood" types long ago. They are a very stupid bunch of people.

Just say it..............your pissed off that slavery happened. There's nothing I can say or do to change that, or your attitude. I'm pissed off that it happened too.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 02:10:35 PM
Okay why was it stupid? Who was it insensitive too?
Why was it sensational?

It was stupid because it serves no logical or practical purpose, and can only cause resentment and harm. As an exercise in free speech, it ranks right up there with Bill Maher's typical output.

It was insensitive to anyone who read or heard it, in the way that many of the Hollywood and entertainment crowd are routinely 'sensitivity-impaired,' if you will -- detached from the mainstream, insulated from the everyday world, and too rich to give a shit about it. "I can say anything I want, 'cause those assholes will keep buying my shit no matter what I say." Sad to say, people like him are often right. I honestly wouldn't piss on Chris Rock if he was on fire, but that's just me. 

It was sensational in the sense that it's over a line that most decent people have drawn on the subject of slavery. Yes, slavery was awful, but that was 150 years ago. There comes a time to just move on, and most people have done so. I'm nearly 60, and slavery might have been a reality for my great-great-grandfather -- whom I never even met because he had been dead for 50 years before I was born -- but it doesn't touch my life, and it certainly has never touched Chris Rock, except in his mind. The likes of him stooping this low is a car-wreck spectacle, a sensational case of a VERY fortunate product of modern America shitting on his own doorstep.

Quote from: mdgiles on July 06, 2012, 03:44:28 PM
You celebrate the 4th. But don't seem to appreciate Free Speech. What did Rock say that wasn't true?

He's free, isn't he?

QuoteIn truth I haven't read his entire statement. Did he say something else that was false. You know blacks have fought and died in every war this country has ever fought - even while we were being treated like shit on a stick. I'm getting tired of self style patriots, telling us - as in black folks us - that isn't enough. We also have to keep our mouths shut so all the people who treated us like shit on a stick, won't feel guilty about it. Unbelievable. People like you act as if the bad old days are centuries in the past. My late grandmother, who died in 1973 was the daughter of a man who was born a slave in North Carolina. And guess what, the bad old days of Jim Crow are within living memory of millions of blacks - like me. All of history has different meanings to different people. I'm sure the Anglo-Irish nobility who were pushed out Ireland, see things in a different light than the Irish who finally got that same nobility off their backs.

So tell me Giles, how have you been mistreated?
I'll bet you for every example you give, I can give you ten bad events where I was mistreated.
When you're ready to quit blaming others, and accept the fact that life simply isn't fair, then, and only then will you be able to move on.
If you want to live as a victim, fine, I really don't give a damn, but I'll tell ya, for as badly as I was mistreated, I hold no animosity, for it made me a stronger man.
Life's a bitch, get over it!

The day I really get pissed, is the day Chris Rock can't make a living off the "N" word, or spew his anti whitey crap on the internet.

I'll be pissed, but I won't be able to express it. Because this site, along with many others, will be gone.

Quote from: Solar on July 06, 2012, 04:52:19 PM
He's free, isn't he?

Were his ancestors free on July 4th, 1776? How about July 4th,  1783? 1800 to 1865? You want to celebrate a day in the past, but resent having someone point out that past differed for their ancestors. That on that great day for freedom, they weren't free.

QuoteSo tell me Giles, how have you been mistreated?
I'll bet you for every example you give, I can give you ten bad events where I was mistreated.
When you're ready to quit blaming others, and accept the fact that life simply isn't fair, then, and only then will you be able to move on.
If you want to live as a victim, fine, I really don't give a damn, but I'll tell ya, for as badly as I was mistreated, I hold no animosity, for it made me a stronger man.
Life's a bitch, get over it!

And you still cannot get it through your head that being aware of the past is not living in the past. So do you advise Holocaust survivors or their children to "get over it". How about writing letters to the Israeli government and advise them they should "get over" those problems they're having with the Palestinians. Maybe you could contact the Dahlia Lama, and tell he really should "get over" the Chinese occupying his country. How about Poles "getting over" their inordinate fear of the Russians? For some reason, you recognize that making that suggestion, in any one of those other cases would be seen as arrogant and insulting. But you never hesitate to make it to blacks.