Quote from: Solar on August 20, 2014, 06:00:13 AM
Are you really expecting him to explain his "Feelings"?

Lol good point, it just annoys me how many people think humanity (especially Islam) will naturally "evolve" into a state of enlightenment or have a natural liberal reformation if only left alone.

Quote from: Mountainshield on August 20, 2014, 04:52:10 AM
Could you clarify what you mean by this? I wasn't aware humanity is by some i.e natural law on a continual progress towards enlightenment. Where is the evidence?

I'm not saying they will, I'm saying if they ever will they will need to do so on their own, find their own way to it.

We can't force it, we don't have that power, we are up against over a millennia of culture and history, and in addition they don't like us, which means they aren't likely to listen to us if our words and their values are in conflict.

If it turns out they don't find a way, they stay barbarians in the caves, and we or someone else nearby has to "mow the grass" every few decades or so, so be it.

Quote from: Mountainshield on August 20, 2014, 08:54:29 AM
Lol good point, it just annoys me how many people think humanity (especially Islam) will naturally "evolve" into a state of enlightenment or have a natural liberal reformation if only left alone.

It's not a foregone conclusion, even with Christian nations that's not a given (Central and South America). But for Islamic cultures we do have precedent.

1. The Kurds. They aren't quite enlightened, but they do embrace plurality, they have both Christians and Muslims among their number. Seems to me that if we gave them their own State, they'd be pretty well behaved.

2. Indonesia. Despite being primarily Muslim, opinion there has turned against the Radical Jihadists. They don't want Sharia law, they don't want to to run roughshod over other religious minorities.

3. The UAE. Probably due to more and more of their population becoming Foreign, but their weak-application of Sharia law continues to degrade.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 20, 2014, 01:04:28 PM
It's not a foregone conclusion, even with Christian nations that's not a given (Central and South America). But for Islamic cultures we do have precedent.

1. The Kurds. They aren't quite enlightened, but they do embrace plurality, they have both Christians and Muslims among their number. Seems to me that if we gave them their own State, they'd be pretty well behaved.

2. Indonesia. Despite being primarily Muslim, opinion there has turned against the Radical Jihadists. They don't want Sharia law, they don't want to to run roughshod over other religious minorities.

3. The UAE. Probably due to more and more of their population becoming Foreign, but their weak-application of Sharia law continues to degrade.

What do you mean with Latin America? Except for the Communist countries Latin America is growing economically and they are also some of the most liberty loving countries and free commerce driven societies on earth. Latin America is a great place to live (except for said communist states).

The Kurds are socialist communists, give them their own state and they will be just another oil-tyranny one party state. They would be well behaved like Venezuela is well behaved, i guess that's better than the Islamic State, but I wouldn't consider it to be enlightened in any way.

As for UAE, the Kurds and even Indonesia, the variables that might indicate cultural liberalization could be easily attributed to western influence on lifestyle and hedonism. Which means that they are dependent on foreign influence to reach what you call "enlightenment" whatever that is.

Quote from: Mountainshield on August 21, 2014, 10:13:15 AM
What do you mean with Latin America?

All the places being wracked with violence worse than Iraq in height of the insurgency right now, namely Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras.

It's not all bad, I agree, Chile has made great gains, and Brazil is now a larger economy than Russia. Shame the latter doesn't grow anymore because their socialist instincts got the better of them, but it could be worse. BP

QuoteThe Kurds are socialist communists,

So were the Israelis. I think they'd also grow out of it.

QuoteAs for UAE, the Kurds and even Indonesia, the variables that might indicate cultural liberalization could be easily attributed to western influence on lifestyle and hedonism. Which means that they are dependent on foreign influence to reach what you call "enlightenment" whatever that is.

It's a globalized world, and we got to the mantle of "world culture" first. No once can get there in a vacuum anymore, Japan didn't, Singapore didn't, Hong Kong didn't, and none of them have Christianity as a dominant Religion. 

I mean, why re-invent the wheel? They've each etched some personal taste on the matter, but equally they all echo us, or perhaps more accurately, echo Anglo-saxon ideas, and the dialectic on liberty.

I may also add Turkey, Ataturk did remove Political Islamism, but it couldn't last as the people couldn't relate to it. Nonetheless, his ideas had staying power, especially within the military, so it's not completely gone either.

A Muslim faction within the country, an offshoot of the one Al Assad belongs to in Syria, are strong supporters of those ideas as they help to keep themselves alive.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 22, 2014, 01:53:14 AM
All the places being wracked with violence worse than Iraq in height of the insurgency right now, namely Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras.

It's not all bad, I agree, Chile has made great gains, and Brazil is now a larger economy than Russia. Shame the latter doesn't grow anymore because their socialist instincts got the better of them, but it could be worse. BP

Central America and Latin America two completely different societies, just because they talk Spanish doesn't mean they share the same values. It's true, the communist party of Brazil is the true party that is in control, just watch the current socialist President speech at the latest Brazil communist congress. Chile is good, but a country that is very prosperous, got more liberty than Europe and USA and maybe the happiest country is Colombia, FARC is a issue but the general population hate FARC with a passion.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 22, 2014, 01:53:14 AM
So were the Israelis[/url]. I think they'd also grow out of it.

The Israelis have had too out of economic necessity, they do not have the petro-welfare of many other socialist countries and they need a strong military compared to i.e Sweden but they still have many socialist programs that will eventually bankrupt the nation if not cut or revoked. The currents facts are that one party oil-tyrannies states never give up on their communist control.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 22, 2014, 01:53:14 AM
It's a globalized world, and we got to the mantle of "world culture" first. No once can get there in a vacuum anymore, Japan didn't, Singapore didn't, Hong Kong didn't, and none of them have Christianity as a dominant Religion. 

I lost you, what does Christianity has to do with it? The same conservative values that made Christian countries great can make any country or religion great. I just wanted to correct you on your generalization of Latin America.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 22, 2014, 01:53:14 AM
I may also add Turkey, Ataturk did remove Political Islamism, but it couldn't last as the people couldn't relate to it. Nonetheless, his ideas had staying power, especially within the military, so it's not completely gone either.

A Muslim faction within the country, an offshoot of the one Al Assad belongs to in Syria, are strong supporters of those ideas as they help to keep themselves alive.

Have you been to Turkey? The people do not want Sharia, this is why Democracy is a such a corruption and vile form of government, the AKP party can with 49.8% change the entire country into Sharia something the other 50% do not want any part of, people in Turkey for the most part love western lifestyle and freedom which is why you see so many protests against the AKP.

Quote from: Mountainshield on August 22, 2014, 02:19:10 AMThe Israelis have had too out of economic necessity, they do not have the petro-welfare of many other socialist countries and they need a strong military compared to i.e Sweden but they still have many socialist programs that will eventually bankrupt the nation if not cut or revoked. The currents facts are that one party oil-tyrannies states never give up on their communist control.

There are other instances of single-resource nations turning out well.

Take the case of Botswana. It is 70% desert and in the 1960s was the third poorest place on earth. Today, they're a middle income nation, and one of the few nations in Africa that doesn't receive aid.
Their nigh exclusive resource is the diamond trade. Their government compiles a surplus from it, to save and use when the diamonds finally run out. They are not taking that fact for granted.

More on them here.

I lost you, what does Christianity has to do with it? The same conservative values that made Christian countries great can make any country or religion great. I just wanted to correct you on your generalization of Latin America.[/quote]
All of these nations were either built upon English common law, or had their own constitutions inspired by it.

English common law is the product of natural law. Natural law, while not exclusively Christian, is heavily correlated with it, and in the 18th century, the only school in town using this to push for liberty was Christian ethics.

QuoteHave you been to Turkey? The people do not want Sharia, this is why Democracy is a such a corruption and vile form of government, the AKP party can with 49.8% change the entire country into Sharia something the other 50% do not want any part of, people in Turkey for the most part love western lifestyle and freedom which is why you see so many protests against the AKP.

Sadly, I have not. I only know that their most recent president was trying yo shift the nation into Islamic conservatism, that's why I hedge my bets.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 22, 2014, 09:55:26 PM
There are other instances of single-resource nations turning out well.

Take the case of Botswana. It is 70% desert and in the 1960s was the third poorest place on earth. Today, they're a middle income nation, and one of the few nations in Africa that doesn't receive aid.
Their nigh exclusive resource is the diamond trade. Their government compiles a surplus from it, to save and use when the diamonds finally run out. They are not taking that fact for granted.

Botswana have never been communist or even socialist, they have had a decentralized tribal system. It seems Botswana is the proof that conservatism works best for all humankind, the BDP is a right-wing conservative party that has boosted the economy for almost a decade in power. Neighboring Zimbabwe shows you the success of socialism however.

A few thoughts:

1. The Kurds - The Kurds are Muslim in the same way that Mormons are Christian (they aren't really); thus the tension with Shia and Sunni alike. The Kurds have all kinds of stuff mixed in with their "Islam". Kurds are tolerant of other religions for 2 reasons, first they are not true "Muslims" IMHO - second, They are constantly under attack from "true Muslims", so they have to stick together regardless of religion (and they have all kinds of religions).

2. Indonesia - The world's most populous Muslim nation, is increasingly the scene of attacks or episodes of intolerance towards minorities, whether they are Christians, Ahmadi Muslims or other faiths

3. The UAE - Not even a legitimate country IMHO. The place is just an oil cartel, and anything that gets in the way of pumping oil is squashed. They don't let the Jihadist act up because it would be disruptive and the rich Muslims would not be able to go to Bahrain (Muslim Disney / freaky sex  land) and screw Russian hookers.

4. Afghanistan - I truly wish we would have just nuked the place in 2001 after the Taliban refused to give up UBL.