Author Topic: Causes for the War of northern aggression.  (Read 6138 times)

Offline Sci Fi Fan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2012, 08:03:37 AM »
Causes of the The War Between the States - A Southern Perspective

Nitpick: the south started the war, and several times attempted to invade the North.  "northern aggression" my ass.

Quote
For more than 40 years Southerners spoke of "disunion" over a variety of issues. By the time Abraham Lincoln was elected president a single issue, the rise of the abolitionists, became the focal point of Southerners.

And we all agree that the south's defense of slavery was wrong.  Ergo, their entire motivation of secession is unjust.

Quote
Tariffs Tariffs were permitted in the Constitution to allow the United States to generate revenue. The first act, the Tariff Act of 1789, did just that, fairly raising revenue through tariffs on imported goods. In the Tariff of 1816, however, the United States tariff structure changed from revenue producing to protectionist. These protectionist tariffs had been proposed by Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton back in 1789 but the concept was pretty much ignored. Hamilton's original reason was promote the industrialization of the North. Tariffs levied in 1816 were aimed at lucrative Southern markets. Many Northern politicians were looking at wealthy plantation owners and wanting to share that wealth with their constituents and tariffs were the means by which to accomplish this goal. Protectionist fervor, fanned by pre-1816 success creating industrial growth through the Embargo Act was somewhat muted by shippers and merchants who opposed tariffs, but in 1820 and 1824 the United States once again was trying to increase tariffs. The Tariff of 1828 precipitated the first secessionist crisis, in South Carolina in 1832. The battle pitted Vice-President John C. Calhoun against President Andy Jackson, ending with the Nullification Crisis.

Tariffs were never a central motivation for the south's secession.  None of the compromises leading up to the secession ever mentioned tariffs.  Lincoln's 1st inaugural never even mentioned the issue.  The confederate declarations of secession scarcely bring up the topic. 

There is no evidence to the contrary.


Similarly, states' rights were clearly not the central motivation for secession; firstly, the south was happy to enforce federal laws over northern states when they deemed it convenient (fugitive slave law).  Secondly, the Confederate constitution forbids any state from ever abolishing slavery; so when slavery and states' rights collide, slavery won.



The Confederacy was a backwards, racist, aristocratic, hypocritical and misogynistic hate organization founded on a principle of servitude.  Apologists are annoying.

Offline mdgiles

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8018
  • Gender: Male
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2012, 11:52:21 AM »
You know, the question to me seems to be why should the majority of Southerners - many of who had been pushed to the edges of society by the planters monopoly of the best lands and political power, go out and fight and die just to make sure the planters property values didn't go down.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Offline Sci Fi Fan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2012, 11:57:43 AM »
You know, the question to me seems to be why should the majority of Southerners - many of who had been pushed to the edges of society by the planters monopoly of the best lands and political power, go out and fight and die just to make sure the planters property values didn't go down.

There was a story, somewhere, about Union soldiers who asked just this to a poor white southern soldier, who never owned slaves.  His response, was because they (the yankees) were here, and he felt a duty to defend his homeland.

Of course, there's also the fact that poor non-slaveowners were still racist scumbags, who boosted their self esteem by noting that at least they were above slaves in the social ladder, and that they may one day own one.  They also wouldn't like the competition of a free black labor force.

Offline mdgiles

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8018
  • Gender: Male
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2012, 12:08:51 PM »
There was a story, somewhere, about Union soldiers who asked just this to a poor white southern soldier, who never owned slaves.  His response, was because they (the yankees) were here, and he felt a duty to defend his homeland.

Of course, there's also the fact that poor non-slaveowners were still racist scumbags, who boosted their self esteem by noting that at least they were above slaves in the social ladder, and that they may one day own one.  They also wouldn't like the competition of a free black labor force.
Were they so stupid that they didn't realize that once they raised the flag of revolt they were going to have to deal with the national government? And if they were so sure of their superiority to blacks, why would they have seen them as competition?
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Offline Sci Fi Fan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2012, 12:24:13 PM »
Were they so stupid that they didn't realize that once they raised the flag of revolt they were going to have to deal with the national government?

IIRC, many southerners believed that the North was a materialistic group of cowards who wouldn't be able to stomach a prolonged war.

I'd imagine that many folks in the Confederacy didn't really have a choice either way.


Quote
And if they were so sure of their superiority to blacks, why would they have seen them as competition?

For the same reason that I would see an ox as competition if my job were (for some reason) to drag carts, or if I were a cashier and my store was installing a computer to replace me.

Offline mdgiles

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8018
  • Gender: Male
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2012, 05:27:06 PM »
IIRC, many southerners believed that the North was a materialistic group of cowards who wouldn't be able to stomach a prolonged war.

I'd imagine that many folks in the Confederacy didn't really have a choice either way.
Uh, did they miss Bleeding Kansas? They were still using whale oil. Most whalers were Northerners. Did they think that people who go out and hunt giant beasts from a rowboat, with a spear, lack courage?


Quote
For the same reason that I would see an ox as competition if my job were (for some reason) to drag carts, or if I were a cashier and my store was installing a computer to replace me.
But the slaves didn't compete with whites. Whites did not work on plantation for wages. Not only that, but according to Southern Mythology, blacks were too stupid to even feed themselves, without the assistance of whites. Are you saying that Southern whites didn't really buy into their most cherished beliefs?
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Offline Sci Fi Fan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2012, 12:17:55 PM »
Uh, did they miss Bleeding Kansas? They were still using whale oil. Most whalers were Northerners. Did they think that people who go out and hunt giant beasts from a rowboat, with a spear, lack courage?

 :toungsmile: I never said they weren't stupid.  I suppose one of their assumptions was that the North, abolitionists included, was entirely materialistic, and would not fight an idealistic cause.


Quote
But the slaves didn't compete with whites. Whites did not work on plantation for wages. Not only that, but according to Southern Mythology, blacks were too stupid to even feed themselves, without the assistance of whites. Are you saying that Southern whites didn't really buy into their most cherished beliefs?

Whoever said racists could not be hypocrites?  It's why I laugh at the neo-nazis who believe jews to be inferior life forms, yet simultaneously think that they could secretly gain control of every industry in the world.

Howell Cobb did brush across the idea:

"If slaves will make good soldiers, our whole theory of slavery is wrong"

Offline Ford289HiPo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2012, 09:29:58 PM »
You know, the question to me seems to be why should the majority of Southerners - many of who had been pushed to the edges of society by the planters monopoly of the best lands and political power, go out and fight and die just to make sure the planters property values didn't go down.

That is a good question!
Do cannibals refuse to eat clowns because they taste funny?

elmerfudd

  • Guest
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2012, 01:37:42 PM »
That is a good question!


And here's the answer: they didn't.  They fought because their country, the one that just seceded, was being threatened with extinction by the country from which it seceded.

But all that obfuscating draws attention away from the CAUSE of secession, which was the perceived threat to slavery.  No secession, no war.  No slavery, no secession.

Link to full article:
http://www.clarionledger.com/viewart/20120817/NEWS/120817007/150th-Civil-War-anniversary-angst-filled-Mississippi

Relevant excerpt:
"Depending on what part of the country you're from ... people have been brought up different ways to understand why the Civil War was fought," Martin said. "When it comes down to it, you can boil it all down to slavery. That is the root cause of the Civil War."

Offline walkstall

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12907
  • Gender: Male
  • WYSIWYG
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2012, 02:13:06 PM »

"When it comes down to it, you can boil it all down to slavery. That is the root cause of the Civil War."

War is never just one root cause, slavery was only part of the "root cause".
And I am not even for the South.

1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.

2. States versus federal rights.

3. The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.

4. Growth of the Abolition Movement.

5. The election of Abraham Lincoln.
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

"Where is the $2,500 in savings Democrats and Obama promised me?"

elmerfudd

  • Guest
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2012, 07:42:53 AM »
War is never just one root cause, slavery was only part of the "root cause".
And I am not even for the South.

1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.

2. States versus federal rights.

3. The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.

4. Growth of the Abolition Movement.

5. The election of Abraham Lincoln.

3, 4, and 5 are pure slavery issues.  1 and 2 are predominantly slavery issues.

tbone0106

  • Guest
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2012, 08:05:15 PM »
I keep explaining, y'all keep ignoring.

The Civil War was fought for economic reasons. Period.

Slavery was an economic issue. Period.

From the very article you quote, Fudd: "On Dec. 20, 1860, South Carolina became the first state to secede. Mississippi moved next on Jan. 9, 1861, with a secession declaration stating, in part: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world." [emphasis mine]

If those dumb racist crackers in Mississippi knew it -- and said so loudly and publicly -- in 1861, why can't you get it through your head?

Offline Solar

  • '
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34476
  • Gender: Male
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2012, 06:43:26 AM »
I keep explaining, y'all keep ignoring.

The Civil War was fought for economic reasons. Period.

Slavery was an economic issue. Period.

From the very article you quote, Fudd: "On Dec. 20, 1860, South Carolina became the first state to secede. Mississippi moved next on Jan. 9, 1861, with a secession declaration stating, in part: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world." [emphasis mine]

If those dumb racist crackers in Mississippi knew it -- and said so loudly and publicly -- in 1861, why can't you get it through your head?
Yep, power and money.
Who'd a thunk it?
Koolaid is for kids, TEA is for adults

Offline mdgiles

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8018
  • Gender: Male
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2012, 11:14:55 AM »
Slavery was more than an economic issue, it was also a social issue. After all as many here have noted, the majority of Southerners not only didn't own slaves, but were involved in the slavery economy. However slavery did give every white Southerner at least one rung up the social ladder, no matter what their actual material circumstances.
"LIBERALS: their willful ignorance is rivaled only by their catastrophic stupidity"!

Offline Sci Fi Fan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Causes for the War of northern aggression.
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2012, 01:07:41 PM »
War is never just one root cause, slavery was only part of the "root cause".
And I am not even for the South.

1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.

2. States versus federal rights.

3. The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.

4. Growth of the Abolition Movement.

5. The election of Abraham Lincoln.

Yes, but all of these factors can inevitably be traced backed to the prevalence of slavery in the south.

Economic and social differences?  Slavery.  States vs federal rights?  Ditto; the south had no problem using federal authority to force Northern states to enforce the fugitive slave act, and the confederate constitution banned any state from abolishing slavery.  Clearly, states' rights was just a silly excuse to defend their god given liberty to suppress others' liberties.

I hate to tell any southern apologists around here, but the confederacy was founded by the slavemasters, of the slavemasters, for the slavemasters.  Don't listen to me: read the confederate declarations of secession.  I kid you not when I say that >99% of the dialogue specifically defends slavery and aggressively opposes black suffrage.

This isn't even the case when I'm trying to accuse politicans of being closet racists; I'm simply pointing out that the Confederacy was openly racist.  It's no conspiracy theory.

 

Powered by EzPortal