B-52 bombers to take on ISIS - 61 years young and going strong !

Started by SalemCat, March 08, 2016, 07:42:58 PM

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SalemCat

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/08/politics/b52-bombers-isis/index.html

OMG - if we could only stretch it out another 36 years. Would a 100-year-old active warplane be cool or what ?

No ship, no sub, no tank, no jeep has even come close.

quiller

Quote from: SalemCat on March 08, 2016, 07:42:58 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/08/politics/b52-bombers-isis/index.html

OMG - if we could only stretch it out another 36 years. Would a 100-year-old active warplane be cool or what ?

No ship, no sub, no tank, no jeep has even come close.

What possible reason should force the most powerful military force on this planet to use century-old anything, if not a cannon (and even then the old ones only for ceremony). How "cool or what" is a 200-year-old bridge that collapses beneath you, or a 100-year-old road surface that gobbles your car whole?

walkstall

Quote from: quiller on March 10, 2016, 07:48:52 AM
What possible reason should force the most powerful military force on this planet to use century-old anything, if not a cannon (and even then the old ones only for ceremony). How "cool or what" is a 200-year-old bridge that collapses beneath you, or a 100-year-old road surface that gobbles your car whole?

My old commodore 64 I gave my son is working yet.   :lol: :biggrin:
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

quiller

Quote from: walkstall on March 10, 2016, 08:03:09 AM
My old commodore 64 I gave my son is working yet.   :lol: :biggrin:
Is it as old as a B-52? Didn't think so.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the B-52 was absolutely brilliant for its design. It is shameful to think how much they would cost to build them from scratch, but we surely will have to, or rely on smaller "vehicles" including extreme-high-speed drones DARPA has been testing. Me, I'm old school. When you want it bombed right, you bring in the Muthah Ship. Nothin' says you love 'em like the buns from a Stratocruiser oven. (And yes, that's the ONLY aircraft the USAF flies that this ex-Navy aviation squid will speak well of).

Bombers come and go. I'd be willing to build the B-52 again. It deserves to survive, but not as a flying antique. The present B-52s are expected to serve until 2040 or so.

Then what?

walkstall

Quote from: quiller on March 10, 2016, 08:21:43 AM
Is it as old as a B-52? Didn't think so.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the B-52 was absolutely brilliant for its design. It is shameful to think how much they would cost to build them from scratch, but we surely will have to, or rely on smaller "vehicles" including extreme-high-speed drones DARPA has been testing. Me, I'm old school. When you want it bombed right, you bring in the Muthah Ship. Nothin' says you love 'em like the buns from a Stratocruiser oven. (And yes, that's the ONLY aircraft the USAF flies that this ex-Navy aviation squid will speak well of).

Bombers come and go. I'd be willing to build the B-52 again. It deserves to survive, but not as a flying antique. The present B-52s are expected to serve until 2040 or so.

Then what?

My young BIL worked on B-52s when he was in the Air Force.  When he got out he got a job working on them until he retired last year.  As a kid they would come in right over there house.
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

SalemCat

The B-52 is a brilliant design, that decades after its introduction, continues to strike fear into the hearts of our enemies.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


quiller

Quote from: SalemCat on March 11, 2016, 11:32:37 AM
The B-52 is a brilliant design, that decades after its introduction, continues to strike fear into the hearts of our enemies.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If it's not ultimately replaced, it will fall down. If you don't risk breaking it by flying past its structural lifetime. You can stretch it out with periodically replacing every part that even LOOKS like it may someday go haywire, yet you still have cracks at the microscopic level which come with even the most careful extended usage. Ultimately, the unit must be replaced. The reality is, total numbers are now dwindling, but to get that level of efficiency, we need that plane.

SalemCat

I'm certain most of you realize this, but the current crop of B-52's are a lot like "Abraham Lincoln's Axe".

Small boy in museum: "cuse me sir, is that President Lincoln's axe ?"

Guide: "Sure is son. Of course the Head's been replaced twice, and the Handle four times..."

Like the USS Constitution in Boston, I'm certain not much of any flying B-52 is original.

Unlike the Browning M2 .50 Caliber Machine Gun. When I fired these in the early 70's, I'll bet some of those same weapons saw service in WWII. Wiki claims they entered general usage in 1933. And the design, if not individual weapons, is still in use. In a mere 17 years they'll be 100 !

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/M2_Browning%2C_Mus%C3%A9e_de_l%27Arm%C3%A9e.jpg

They're probably not using any WWII vintage M2 in combat, but it would be curious to trace the Serial Numbers of M2's still being used in a Training capacity. BTW, for those of you unfamiliar with Machine Guns, most regard the Barrels as expendable components. So there would be no original barrels in use.

Another Browning design, the 1911 Semi-Automatic Pistol, saw it's centenary come and go a few years ago. New versions are being used by our Marines right now, though they are identified as the M45 Close Quarters Battle Pistol.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/M1911A1.png




Solar

Quote from: SalemCat on March 12, 2016, 07:39:27 AM
I'm certain most of you realize this, but the current crop of B-52's are a lot like "Abraham Lincoln's Axe".

Small boy in museum: "cuse me sir, is that President Lincoln's axe ?"

Guide: "Sure is son. Of course the Head's been replaced twice, and the Handle four times..."

Like the USS Constitution in Boston, I'm certain not much of any flying B-52 is original.

Unlike the Browning M2 .50 Caliber Machine Gun. When I fired these in the early 70's, I'll bet some of those same weapons saw service in WWII. Wiki claims they entered general usage in 1933. And the design, if not individual weapons, is still in use. In a mere 17 years they'll be 100 !

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/M2_Browning%2C_Mus%C3%A9e_de_l%27Arm%C3%A9e.jpg

They're probably not using any WWII vintage M2 in combat, but it would be curious to trace the Serial Numbers of M2's still being used in a Training capacity. BTW, for those of you unfamiliar with Machine Guns, most regard the Barrels as expendable components. So there would be no original barrels in use.

Another Browning design, the 1911 Semi-Automatic Pistol, saw it's centenary come and go a few years ago. New versions are being used by our Marines right now, though they are identified as the M45 Close Quarters Battle Pistol.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/M1911A1.png


At what point do you call it a day?
The air frame on these bombers have seen repeated stress, and become brittle, but at what point do you say enough is enough and scrap it?
You can replace every part, but weighing the cost of repair or loss of life against a new plane has to be taken into consideration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n06WNSS4tFs
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SalemCat

Quote from: Solar on March 12, 2016, 09:14:19 AM
At what point do you call it a day?
The air frame on these bombers have seen repeated stress, and become brittle, but at what point do you say enough is enough and scrap it?
You can replace every part, but weighing the cost of repair or loss of life against a new plane has to be taken into consideration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n06WNSS4tFs

I don't think you ever call it a day.

If the B-52 still works as a design, build new ones from the ground up.

I'd be surprised if you couldn't build ten of them for the cost of a single modern bomber.

It's just like the 1911 Pistol. The basic design cannot be improved, and brother, they've tried.

Solar

Quote from: SalemCat on March 12, 2016, 12:45:22 PM
I don't think you ever call it a day.

If the B-52 still works as a design, build new ones from the ground up.

I'd be surprised if you couldn't build ten of them for the cost of a single modern bomber.

It's just like the 1911 Pistol. The basic design cannot be improved, and brother, they've tried.
Why would you take outdated weaponry to the battlefield, simply because they were effective in the last century?
Why not bring back the M-1 Carbine, or the Jeep?
Point is, just because it can still do the job, doesn't mean the enemy hasn't improved it's ability to shoot one down, which is why the lumbering Stratoforce is being replaced.


TINKER AIR FORCE BASE, Okla., 26 Jan. 2014. U.S. Air Force jet bomber squadrons have begun taking delivery of the latest versions of the venerable Boeing B-1 Lancer jet bomber, which has the most extensive avionics upgrade in the aircraft's long history.
The Air Force this past week received the first B-1 bomber upgraded with the Boeing Integrated Battle Station, which integrates three major aircraft modifications -- an updated front and aft cockpit, a new diagnostics system, and a new Link 16 data link to enhance situational awareness and communications for the B-1 crew.
The B-1 was designed in the early 1970s, but the program was cancelled by then-President Jimmy Carter in 1977 shortly after Carter took office. Carter's successor, President Ronald Reagan, reinstated the program in the early 1980s, and the B-1 entered Air Force service in 1986.
Related: Electronic warfare components for Air Force B-1 strategic jet bomber to be maintained by engineers at Crane Microwave
The aircraft is designed as a supersonic low-level penetrating bomber able to carry nuclear and conventional bombs and missiles. The aircraft uses speed at low altitudes and a sophisticated electronic warfare (EW) system to defeat enemy air defenses.
The first B-1 with the Integrated Battle Station was delivered to the Air Force on Tuesday, and will be based at Dyess Air Force Base, Texas.
The upgrade gives B-1 crews enhanced situational awareness of what is happening in the battlespace around them, in addition to faster and more secure communication capabilities that improve their ability to attack enemy targets.
Related: U.S. Air Force selects Boeing for B-1 Bomber avionics software upgrade
The Integrated Battle Station replaces several displays with new multi-function color display units, introduce a central integrated test system and a new model of Aircraft Performance Monitoring Computer, new Link 16 networking, and digital flight instrumentation.
The vertical situation display unit portion of the Integrated Battle Station upgrades the B-1's forward cockpit by replacing two obsolete monochrome pilot and co-pilot displays with four multifunctional color displays.
The B-1's new digital data link will give the aft cockpit new digital avionics including a Link 16 data link, which adds line-of-sight capability to the B-1's existing beyond line-of-sight joint range extension applications protocol data link and integrates the JREAP data onto color displays with intuitive symbols and moving maps.
Related: Air Force chooses crystal oscillators from Syntonic Microwave for B-1B jet bomber electronic countermeasures
The central integrated test system adds a color display in the aft cockpit and replaces an obsolete computer that continuously monitors the aircraft's performance. It helps ground support personnel troubleshoot B-1 system problems.
Personnel from the Air Force 76th Aircraft Maintenance Group at Tinker Air Force Base, Okla, are installing the Integrated Battle Station equipment aboard B-1 bombers.
The Integrated Battle station upgrades will cost about $975 million and will take about eight years to complete on 61 B-1 aircraft.
http://www.intelligent-aerospace.com/articles/2014/01/ai-b1-upgrades.html
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SalemCat

Of course you are right if "The Enemy" is Russia or China.

But when it comes to pretty much anyone else, the B-52 is beyond adequate.

Using advanced weaponry when a sharp stick will do is an example of "Pearls before Swine".

quiller

Quote from: SalemCat on March 12, 2016, 12:45:22 PM
I don't think you ever call it a day.

If the B-52 still works as a design, build new ones from the ground up.

I'd be surprised if you couldn't build ten of them for the cost of a single modern bomber.

It's just like the 1911 Pistol. The basic design cannot be improved, and brother, they've tried.

You really ought to think before you post, sonny, because in this thread alone you have gone from saying the B-52 should continue to fly past a century mark to saying if the design is solid (you didn't know before you posted how good it was?) and yet you IGNORE the footage proving microfissures do exist for aircraft.

THINK, boy! The B-52 is not a passenger plane. It is loaded with more tonnage than any six such passenger craft and the stresses on its airframe are immense. Fissures will occur. Not all such damage can be swapped-out through cannibalization and the like.

Next time don't bring a pistol to a bomber-fight. It's not related at all to the subject.