Are you ready to go to war?

Started by jrodefeld, September 15, 2014, 07:47:01 AM

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jrodefeld

I want to preface this thread by linking to a very perceptive article written by the heroic Glenn Greenwald.  Is history repeating itself in front of our very eyes?  The catastrophe of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars should be instructive but, alas, the Americans have fallen for the propaganda once again and now greater than 70% of the population support air strikes against both Iraq AND Syria.

Here is the article:  https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/08/lesson-americans-refuse-learn-war/


I know y'll are Tea Party types, but are you warmongers?  There is no defending an extremist group like Isis but isn't it clear that we are falling right into their trap?  We attack with airstrikes and then the Muslim world becomes even more angry at us, ISIS recruits more disgruntled folks and gain in influence and power.  All while bleeding us dry financially and luring us into yet another protracted war.

This was the stated goal of Osama bin Laden.  But at least he actually helped commit a terrorist act of significant enough proportions to warrant a serious military response.  All it takes now to convince the American Empire to wage a new three year war is to release a couple of beheading videos? 

I'm curious how you right wingers are responding to this blatant propaganda and war mongering.

quiller

Quote from: jrodefeld on September 15, 2014, 07:47:01 AM
I want to preface this thread by linking to a very perceptive article written by the heroic Glenn Greenwald.
Heroic, my ass. Greenwald enabled Snowden. Screw them both.

QuoteIs history repeating itself in front of our very eyes?  The catastrophe of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars should be instructive but, alas, the Americans have fallen for the propaganda once again and now greater than 70% of the population support air strikes against both Iraq AND Syria.
Oh, so leftists are OK when majorities go THEIR way but not.....  Ah, forget it. It's over your head.

QuoteHere is the article:  https://islamicbullshit.org

I know y'll are Tea Party types, but are you warmongers?  There is no defending an extremist group like Isis but isn't it clear that we are falling right into their trap?  We attack with airstrikes and then the Muslim world becomes even more angry at us, ISIS recruits more disgruntled folks and gain in influence and power.  All while bleeding us dry financially and luring us into yet another protracted war.
Your muslim president pulled out of there too early. Live with those consequences. As for any sand-fleas not liking us, what's possibly new THERE, either? "Big Satan," remember?

QuoteThis was the stated goal of Osama bin Laden.  But at least he actually helped commit a terrorist act of significant enough proportions to warrant a serious military response.  All it takes now to convince the American Empire to wage a new three year war is to release a couple of beheading videos?
Tell that face-to-face to a member of those victims' families. Imagine it was your family member. Just try.....

QuoteI'm curious how you right wingers are responding to this blatant propaganda and war mongering.

The opportunity to glaze the sands for 100 miles around both Mecca and Medina would be a perfect Hallmark Greeting Card for these vicious animals.

Go ahead, I dare you. Find me one instance in the last 100 years where ANY Christian beheaded ANY muslim OR ANYBODY ELSE. The sand fleas turned it into arena sports. THOSE are the bowel-waste you're defending.

jrodefeld

#2
Quote from: quiller on September 15, 2014, 09:06:28 AM
Heroic, my ass. Greenwald enabled Snowden. Screw them both.
Oh, so leftists are OK when majorities go THEIR way but not.....  Ah, forget it. It's over your head.
Your muslim president pulled out of there too early. Live with those consequences. As for any sand-fleas not liking us, what's possibly new THERE, either? "Big Satan," remember?
Tell that face-to-face to a member of those victims' families. Imagine it was your family member. Just try.....

The opportunity to glaze the sands for 100 miles around both Mecca and Medina would be a perfect Hallmark Greeting Card for these vicious animals.

Go ahead, I dare you. Find me one instance in the last 100 years where ANY Christian beheaded ANY muslim OR ANYBODY ELSE. The sand fleas turned it into arena sports. THOSE are the bowel-waste you're defending.

First of all, Glenn Greenwald.  He didn't "enable" Snowden.  He merely did what any honest journalist would do which is report on a newsworthy story from documents provided by a source.  Snowden is an American hero and a patriot for informing his fellow citizens about the government's systematic abuse of their rights. 

Don't tell me you are okay with the NSA abuses and the shredding of our Bill of Rights?  Like him or not (and I have some disagreements with him) Greenwald is one of the very best American journalists.  He has done the world a great service by exposing the corruption and abuse of the world's most powerful government.

What would I do if a family member was beheaded by ISIS?  I would want revenge, absolutely.  I would want to find the people responsible and kill them.  However, I would NEVER ask you to sacrifice your son or daughter in a military effort to provide me with some personal satisfaction.  I would never support the extortion of my fellow man to pay for a war they may not support.  I would never allow my personal tragedy to become a pawn for war propaganda by Israel-first politicians and the military industrial complex who have far different motives for going to war.

Here is another angle for you to consider.  What if your family member was on the receiving end of a drone strike from a foreign power?  What if your entire family and relatives were killed during a wedding?  What if a foreign power constantly undermined your self determination and sold military equipment to violent terrorists and radical extremists?  What if a foreign power continually referred to you and everyone you know in disparaging and arguably racist terms and considered the innocents murdered from the air merely "collateral damage"?

Would you be angry?  Would you want to go to war?

Now I certainly don't defend ISIS.  These people are savages of the worst kind.  They are easily as bad as we are being told they are. 

What you are doing though is not drawing a distinction between these lunatics and others who merely happen to be within the borders of Iraq or Syria.  You do understand that it is just an accident of birth that you happened to be born in the United States right?  That cosmic accident doesn't make you inherently superior to a child who happened to be born in Syria.

What could possibly be accomplished by launching air strikes?  Would you then support boots on the ground?  What is the end goal?

Look at what we have done to Iraq.  I get that you don't give a shit about the welfare of the people of Iraq or Syria, but anyone with a brain can see that life was infinitely better under the secular regime of Saddam Hussein than it is under the chaos that arose from the destruction wrought by our military.

Do you understand the concept of blowback?  Where do you think these radicals came from?  You think we would be hearing about ISIS if Saddam had been left in power?

At the very best we are treading water and we should stay out of that region and allow them to work things out themselves (or not work things out). 

How about this.  If you are so upset and you want to go take out ISIS, go join up.  Grab your buddies and take the first plane to Iraq or Syria and go kill a bunch of them.

I find this military action absolutely morally repugnant.  I don't support it and I don't want you to force me into supporting your war games.  I don't want you to sacrifice the lives of young Americans by supporting more military action and an escalation of conflict.

Did you support Bush's Iraq War also? 


What do you have to say for yourself?  Go take on ISIS.  Leave me and every other sane and moral American out of it. 

supsalemgr

Quote from: jrodefeld on September 15, 2014, 07:47:01 AM
I want to preface this thread by linking to a very perceptive article written by the heroic Glenn Greenwald.  Is history repeating itself in front of our very eyes?  The catastrophe of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars should be instructive but, alas, the Americans have fallen for the propaganda once again and now greater than 70% of the population support air strikes against both Iraq AND Syria.

Here is the article:  https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/08/lesson-americans-refuse-learn-war/


I know y'll are Tea Party types, but are you warmongers?  There is no defending an extremist group like Isis but isn't it clear that we are falling right into their trap?  We attack with airstrikes and then the Muslim world becomes even more angry at us, ISIS recruits more disgruntled folks and gain in influence and power.  All while bleeding us dry financially and luring us into yet another protracted war.

This was the stated goal of Osama bin Laden.  But at least he actually helped commit a terrorist act of significant enough proportions to warrant a serious military response.  All it takes now to convince the American Empire to wage a new three year war is to release a couple of beheading videos? 

I'm curious how you right wingers are responding to this blatant propaganda and war mongering.

" We attack with airstrikes and then the Muslim world becomes even more angry at us, ISIS recruits more disgruntled folks and gain in influence and power. "

I suggest your thinking is flawed here. These people hate us regardless of what we do. Therefore, we should make every effort to destroy them. Obama has bent over backwards not to piss off the heathens and what has that done. It has only empowered them to push further. They only understand one thing - a direct path to 72 virgins.
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

Solar

Quote from: jrodefeld on September 15, 2014, 07:47:01 AM
I want to preface this thread by linking to a very perceptive article written by the heroic Glenn Greenwald.  Is history repeating itself in front of our very eyes?  The catastrophe of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars should be instructive but, alas, the Americans have fallen for the propaganda once again and now greater than 70% of the population support air strikes against both Iraq AND Syria.

Here is the article:  https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/08/lesson-americans-refuse-learn-war/


I know y'll are Tea Party types, but are you warmongers?  There is no defending an extremist group like Isis but isn't it clear that we are falling right into their trap?  We attack with airstrikes and then the Muslim world becomes even more angry at us, ISIS recruits more disgruntled folks and gain in influence and power.  All while bleeding us dry financially and luring us into yet another protracted war.

This was the stated goal of Osama bin Laden.  But at least he actually helped commit a terrorist act of significant enough proportions to warrant a serious military response.  All it takes now to convince the American Empire to wage a new three year war is to release a couple of beheading videos? 

I'm curious how you right wingers are responding to this blatant propaganda and war mongering.
Since the Marxist has no war plan, he needs to get the Hell out altogether and arm all sides and let them kill off each other.
Bombing is clearing the theater for a ground invasion, but bombing alone is futile.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

quiller

Quote from: jrodefeld on September 15, 2014, 10:04:30 AM
What do you have to say for yourself?  Go take on ISIS.  Leave me and every other sane and moral American out of it.

So you admit you're too spineless to defend America and are too stupid to know treason when Greenwald enables Snowden in committing it.

Dismissed! Real Americans will defend us without you.

jrodefeld

Quote from: quiller on September 16, 2014, 01:27:00 AM
So you admit you're too spineless to defend America and are too stupid to know treason when Greenwald enables Snowden in committing it.

Dismissed! Real Americans will defend us without you.

Are you for real?  I thought you were a conservative?  I didn't know conservatives were supposed to reflexively defend the government and the military industrial complex.  If you worked at the Weekly Standard and Bill Krystol was writing your checks, I could understand were you were coming from.

But how could any sane person, not bought and paid for, see Snowden as a traitor for revealing a systemic assault on the forth amendment that had been transpiring in complete secrecy for more than a decade?  Do you feel the same way about Daniel Ellsberg?

It's interesting that you use the word "defend".  Are you really so delusional that you conceive of these aggressive wars of empire as "defense"?  I'm as appalled as anyone at the beheading videos and the viciousness of ISIS but that hardly means we need to launch an all out military assault.

How many people get murdered every day in the United States?  What about the mis-allocation of resources involved in launching a military intervention?  That money and resources would be better used to protect the lives and property of Americans here at home.

Please explain the logic of this intervention to me.  What are the end goals?  Do you honestly think it is possible to wipe out ISIS militarily?  And if so, what level of expense and investment are you willing to expend to accomplish that goal?

What we should do, of course, is to defend ourselves and prevent any sort of domestic invasion or assault by ISIS terrorists.  But no one on earth believes that ISIS has that capability.  These are just radicals who have mastered social media and are good at provoking people.  They are not a threat to national security.

If we want to stop all future beheadings of Americans and journalists, lets pull out the troops from the Middle East and stop getting involved in that region of the world.  Then we won't be putting journalists in danger, who are trying to report on our military follies.

Where am I going wrong in my analysis?

quiller

Any defender of the traitor Snowden or his enabler, the equally treasonous Greenwald, does not deserve serious attention. I await the SpecOps team which plucks Snowden out of Switzerland (once he gets there) and returns him for a firing squad.

http://news.yahoo.com/swiss-shield-snowden-political-extradition-u-173827103.html

jrodefeld

Quote from: quiller on September 16, 2014, 07:14:05 AM
Any defender of the traitor Snowden or his enabler, the equally treasonous Greenwald, does not deserve serious attention. I await the SpecOps team which plucks Snowden out of Switzerland (once he gets there) and returns him for a firing squad.

http://news.yahoo.com/swiss-shield-snowden-political-extradition-u-173827103.html

Are you capable of intelligent debate?  I am waiting for even the hint of an argument from you.  Instead I see vitriol, accusations, name calling and threats of violence toward everyone who you disagree with.  I suppose ISIS and Snowden (maybe even Greenwald) are the same to you?  They all deserve death according to your "logic".

How old are you?  I'll be willing to bet you are a lot older than me but somehow you never gained the maturity and/or skills to rational discuss issues and construct a logically consistent argument.  Don't resort to a cop out and say that I "do not deserve serious attention" because I support and applaud Snowden and Greenwald.  Point out where I am wrong on my arguments.  Or explain why you hate Snowden and Greenwald so much.

I'll be waiting eagerly for your calm, rational and logically consistent argument in favor of your position on these issues.  I don't take the issue of war lightly.  All of us are effected when people like you support an escalation of conflict. 

quiller

Before you continue, Sparky, you had damned well better show where I made a threat of violence against you.

quiller

Second memo, Sparky. I do not have to defend any dislike for someone who stole classified documents or the one who got them into print. YOU have to defend your support for their treason.

taxed

Quote from: jrodefeld on September 15, 2014, 07:47:01 AM
I want to preface this thread by linking to a very perceptive article written by the heroic Glenn Greenwald.  Is history repeating itself in front of our very eyes?  The catastrophe of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars should be instructive but, alas, the Americans have fallen for the propaganda once again and now greater than 70% of the population support air strikes against both Iraq AND Syria.

Here is the article:  https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/08/lesson-americans-refuse-learn-war/


I know y'll are Tea Party types, but are you warmongers?  There is no defending an extremist group like Isis but isn't it clear that we are falling right into their trap?  We attack with airstrikes and then the Muslim world becomes even more angry at us, ISIS recruits more disgruntled folks and gain in influence and power.  All while bleeding us dry financially and luring us into yet another protracted war.

This was the stated goal of Osama bin Laden.  But at least he actually helped commit a terrorist act of significant enough proportions to warrant a serious military response.  All it takes now to convince the American Empire to wage a new three year war is to release a couple of beheading videos? 

I'm curious how you right wingers are responding to this blatant propaganda and war mongering.

Right.  Otherwise, they'd love us.
#PureBlood #TrumpWon

Solar

Quote from: taxed on September 16, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
Right.  Otherwise, they'd love us.
I want to piss them off so much, that they forget which hand to eat with.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Q PATRIOT!!!

washington

Quote from: Solar on September 15, 2014, 07:17:58 PM
Since the Marxist has no war plan, he needs to get the Hell out altogether and arm all sides and let them kill off each other.
Bombing is clearing the theater for a ground invasion, but bombing alone is futile.

Two conservative who agree!   :rolleyes:  We agree a lot more than you know. 

jrodefeld

Quote from: quiller on September 16, 2014, 10:52:13 AM
Second memo, Sparky. I do not have to defend any dislike for someone who stole classified documents or the one who got them into print. YOU have to defend your support for their treason.

Which is the higher law, some CIA claim of total secrecy or the US Constitution?  If a systemic program of mass surveillance is going on in secret and it clearly violates the fourth amendment to the Constitution (as well as a few others), then any whistleblower should take their oath to the higher law more seriously than to a lower law.

Snowden didn't reveal these secrets to a foreign government in a time of war, he worked with reputable journalists to let his fellow Americans know what their government is doing to them in secret. 

You really don't see how the Bill of Rights is a far more important law than some bureaucratic decree that claims any and all so-called "national security" related policy and program must be kept classified and away from public scrutiny?