Quote from: Solar on August 27, 2014, 05:45:07 AM
I see no need to continue this nonsense. You know absolutely nothing about business/industry, yet think you know better than business what's best for them.

It's businesses and Farmers who are asking more to be let in.

... And you just shifted your position, First it was "cronyism" ergo, you were admitting that businesses wanted the labor so as to "lower their costs", now you're saying that's just a lie?

QuoteAs an owner of small businesses all my life and a CEO and corporate owner as well, I think I'm far more qualified on the subject than some myopic kid spewing LIBertarian bull shit,

"What's good enough for me, is good enough for all"?

Even if I accept your claim, you're not the only business owner out there. As the video shows on that Farmer story I gave you, an entire association of Agricultural professionals in North Carolina are pushing for more immigrants, insisting that they need them, that they need the labor.

What is your answer to them? Just suck it up? Keep in mind, these folks are Americans in one of the hardest lines of work out there.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 27, 2014, 06:36:45 AM
It's businesses and Farmers who are asking more to be let in.

... And you just shifted your position, First it was "cronyism" ergo, you were admitting that businesses wanted the labor so as to "lower their costs", now you're saying that's just a lie?
"What's good enough for me, is good enough for all"?

You just proved my point. Now go back and reread the thread and you'll get it.
Note the dividing line between "Small business and Corporate Monster" They are not even remotely the same.

QuoteEven if I accept your claim, you're not the only business owner out there. As the video shows on that Farmer story I gave you, an entire association of Agricultural professionals in North Carolina are pushing for more immigrants, insisting that they need them, that they need the labor.

What is your answer to them? Just suck it up? Keep in mind, these folks are Americans in one of the hardest lines of work out there.

Who said I had an issue with guest workers? Not that I believe we still need them, but at least they return home every season and are not afforded privileges of citizenship.
Sadly, our Ag. industry has become dependent upon their cheap labor since the inception of the Bracero program of the 40s.
Something govt has taken advantage of with it's symbiotic leech host relationship with agriculture.
Simple solution? Get govt out of business, put them back in the business of protecting States from foreign invaders, and let the Free mkt find it's natural equilibrium.

You say you're for Liberty, freedom, right? Then why do you insist the Govt control free mkt interests by flooding the country and artificially forcing lower wages and removing these jobs from the average citizen?

Quote from: Solar on August 27, 2014, 07:02:30 AM
You just proved my point.

No, because cheap labor is a good thing in the eyes of economists.

You think it's about wages, bit in fact, the crucial detail is purchasing power parity. People didn't become better off because wages increased, but because each dollar they earned cold buy a little more overtime as the price of enmities dropped.

Labor costs are part to what is incorporated into the price of a good or service, if labor costs go down, then so too ultimately does the price.

QuoteYou say you're for Liberty, freedom, right? Then why do you insist the Govt control free mkt interests by flooding the country and artificially forcing lower wages and removing these jobs from the average citizen?

Because it's not Government that "floods" us, that's the free market. That's what people are choosing to do, uncoerced.

All of the Immigrants choose to come here, and businesses choose to hire them. Where is the Gov't in that?

They're coming here to begin with because we "flood" their country with food cheaper than they're farmers can produce. That puts many of their farmers out of business, so they come here both looking for work, and to learn how exactly we make our food so much more efficiently.

If Zimbabwe farmers had been like that with the white colonists, they'd still be a breadbasket instead of a basket case that can't feed itself.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 27, 2014, 01:45:55 PM
No, because cheap labor is a good thing in the eyes of economists.

You think it's about wages, bit in fact, the crucial detail is purchasing power parity. People didn't become better off because wages increased, but because each dollar they earned cold buy a little more overtime as the price of enmities dropped.

Labor costs are part to what is incorporated into the price of a good or service, if labor costs go down, then so too ultimately does the price.

Because it's not Government that "floods" us, that's the free market. That's what people are choosing to do, uncoerced.

All of the Immigrants choose to come here, and businesses choose to hire them. Where is the Gov't in that?

They're coming here to begin with because we "flood" their country with food cheaper than they're farmers can produce. That puts many of their farmers out of business, so they come here both looking for work, and to learn how exactly we make our food so much more efficiently.

If Zimbabwe farmers had been like that with the white colonists, they'd still be a breadbasket instead of a basket case that can't feed itself.

The price of enmities? What the hell are you talking about?

I must say I like the direction in which this thread is going. Truthfully with the agricultural product we could probably support a population of three times the size (at about 900 million) if we stopped all foreign food-aid and introduced just a few common sense programs. Just take the money for such programs away from Govt intervention in the farming industry (such as Subsidies that encourage farmers to grow *less*) and redistrict some of the great plains states into growing metropolitan centers (preferably non-arable land).

       A.  The primary obstacle would be delivering food to cities, as well as an increasing demand of fresh water and water for showers. I would argue for a combination of public showering facilities and increased availability of fresh water, refined from sea-water as the technology becomes available. For the food, we should see an increase in hydroponics, especially for roof-top gardens and home-gardens, sometimes without the availability for otherwise ideal conditions for food production.

        B.  I would argue for limited de-urbanization coupled with the re-introduction of the small farm owner. It is clear that "Hippie Communes" are a radical and drug addled version of the strive to go off-grid, however Communes are NOT the answer as would appear obvious within the minds of all present. Instead, facilities such as the ones I am familiar with should help teach people how to grow their own produce.

        C. The introduction of on-site livestock facilities could keep the meat-proportionality, or in other words would allow us to eat American quantities of meat without the need to convert into practical vegetarians due to the inherent inefficiencies of meat production. Animal Feed could be grown in on-site hydroponics along with for-human produce and then be processed into feed in a small facility near the livestock pens.

         D. The introduction of micro-farms allowed by technological breakthroughs and increased awareness for the need of local farming, even in urbanized areas, will allow for increased SELF OWNERSHIP and a reduced need for MONSTER CORPORATIONS.

         E. In the mean time I would argue for SEPARATE MINIMUM WAGES for resident migrant workers and legally born US citizens. It should take TWO GENERATIONS for such 'illegal' migrant workers to become patriated citizens, meaning the grandchildren of the people that crossed the border become full citizens worth a full citizen's minimum wage.

         F. My goal is for the minimum wage for "legalized illegals" to be between 5 and 7 dollars, and for the minimum wage for full citizens to be at least between the range of 8 and 10 dollars.

         G. Introduction of Trade schools, (for blue collar jobs such as heavy machinery operation) should be encouraged as a legal alternative to High School (within the standards of compulsory education). Especially for 2nd class citizens such as "Legalized Illegals." Ideally, there would be farming trade schools to allow for 2nd class citizens to learn farming techniques that they may work for local citizen-farmers, reintroducing the "farm hand" culture, further emphasizing local farms and business.

         H. There should be incentives for 2nd class citizens to migrate to un-used land, whether to work at a 'new' farm in un-used arable land, or to work in construction of new urban centers in unused non-arable land (in areas that can still support life relatively easily). With the introduction of hydroponics "livable" land will become almost synonymous with "land" so long as we have a way to refine sea-water into usable drinking water (or at least water good enough for farming) AND we also find a way to GET said sea-water to the inland populations. My favorite method would be via large 'Water Pipelines' somewhat similar to modern day 'Oil Pipelines'.

          I. An alternate way for 2nd class citizens to become full citizens would be to serve honorably within the US military for at least 5 years, not including the national guard or the reserves. This runs in some parallel to Caesar (and other Roman generals) giving land to his veterans after successful campaigns. In their time they used newly conquered lands to settle their immigrant veterans (soldiers serving that were racially Gallic, Germanic, Briton, or Iberian) however in the modern day we could simply use the new urban centers created in previously unused lands now livable due to hydroponics, sea-water processing plants, and sea-water pipelines. ------------->> (of course we could just as easily populate such veterans into foreign lands that were depopulated in accordance with a resistance to US rule or occupation)


PS (to Solar) -> If a massive incident were to occur in China, that was limited only to China, and was a purely natural phenomenon (as in, not alien invasion, or anything quite so wild), then yes a large number of immigrants would arrive here illegally on ship, but no where approaching 20 million .. I'd put a cap at around 1 million per year at best. Still, the vast majority of immigrants, with no money for shipping, etc, would flood into neighboring countries such as Russia, Thailand, and India. I will grant you that there might even be some emergency invasion to take Korea for the remaining Chinese survivors, as such a group would no longer be bothered by the threat of nuclear retaliation.

Quote from: TboneAgain on August 27, 2014, 03:05:52 PM
The price of enmities? What the hell are you talking about?

Pardon, that should say "amenities", as in food, clothes, and fuel.