The Original Intent Argument

Started by Sci Fi Fan, November 16, 2013, 05:05:40 PM

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grace_note

You're forgetting one major, important thing: the Constitution is the law. Whether you think it's antiquated or outdated is your business, but it's still the law. You're correct that the framers did understand that times change and some aspects of it may need to be updated. But that's what the amendment process is for. So if you have a problem with some aspect of the Constitution, like say, the 2nd amendment, then you'll have to go through the amendment process. Simple as that. Good luck getting two thirds of the electorate to agree to that!

TboneAgain

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 17, 2013, 10:14:39 PM
It's obvious you don't understand my argument at all.  I'll illustrate this with an analogy.

Take an equilateral triangle of sides length 10 centered around the origin and rotate it around the z axis.  How many radians would you need to rotate it by to end up with a volume equivalent to that of a triangular prism one half the volume of a radius sphere?

Let's see if you can figure out what I'm teaching you here.

I know! You're teaching us to ignore you.

I've learned my lesson!
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Ek Ehecatl

Quote from: TboneAgain on December 13, 2013, 09:57:02 AM
I know! You're teaching us to ignore you.

I've learned my lesson!

Perfect!!!!  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The USA is fast becoming "The Land of the Fleeced and the home of de-praved"....
God save the Republic!!
Ek

TboneAgain

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Solar

Quote from: cpicturetaker12 on December 13, 2013, 02:53:15 PM

Either you learn to use the damn quote, or I'll put your every post on filter.
Meaning, you'll have to wait for a mod to approve it, and that could take days!
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walkstall

Quote from: Solar on December 13, 2013, 05:18:54 PM
Either you learn to use the damn quote, or I'll put your every post on filter.
Meaning, you'll have to wait for a mod to approve it, and that could take days!

:thumbsup:
There are currently no posts awaiting approval.
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Solar

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walkstall

A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Solar

Quote from: walkstall on December 13, 2013, 07:14:00 PM

How many posts will it hold. :lol:
:lol:
The next post he fucks up, let me know and I'll put his account in your hands.
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Graham R.A. Garner

I don't find it particularly helpful to attempt to divine the "original intent" of the framers of our Constitution in every context; nor illuminating to read it by candlelight. Americans have always been a forward-looking people and not anachronistic in our views.  (We no longer go about our lives in powdered wigs and small clothes.)  I think it must be admitted that the Constitution is a "living document," as evident by the fact that it has been amended twenty-seven times since its adoption and ratification by the several states; which is a testament to the wisdom and foresight of the framers in making provision for such future changes. Surely, they could not have intended that we be ruled by their dead hands.

Certainly, times have changed.  Democracy in America has come a long way from its early beginnings following our struggle for independence. The America Alexis de Tocqueville described in the 1830's, which was largely an agrarian society, was eclipsed by the rise of the nation as an industrial power in the latter half of the Nineteenth Century to become the great economic and military power of the Twentieth Century; and with such changes came the inevitable expansion of the nature and power of government, and the laws that govern our society. Our "founding fathers" could only be utterly astonished at the America of today.  But what would comfort them most, notwithstanding the recent efforts of certain groups to rewrite our history, is that we are still a nation of laws and not men.

supsalemgr

Quote from: Graham R.A. Garner on December 16, 2013, 08:29:55 AM
I don't find it particularly helpful to attempt to divine the "original intent" of the framers of our Constitution in every context; nor illuminating to read it by candlelight. Americans have always been a forward-looking people and not anachronistic in our views.  (We no longer go about our lives in powdered wigs and small clothes.)  I think it must be admitted that the Constitution is a "living document," as evident by the fact that it has been amended twenty-seven times since its adoption and ratification by the several states; which is a testament to the wisdom and foresight of the framers in making provision for such future changes. Surely, they could not have intended that we be ruled by their dead hands.

Certainly, times have changed.  Democracy in America has come a long way from its early beginnings following our struggle for independence. The America Alexis de Tocqueville described in the 1830's, which was largely an agrarian society, was eclipsed by the rise of the nation as an industrial power in the latter half of the Nineteenth Century to become the great economic and military power of the Twentieth Century; and with such changes came the inevitable expansion of the nature and power of government, and the laws that govern our society. Our "founding fathers" could only be utterly astonished at the America of today.  But what would comfort them most, notwithstanding the recent efforts of certain groups to rewrite our history, is that we are still a nation of laws and not men.

The wisdom of our "founding fathers" is truly something to behold. Definitely including the amendment process acknowledged they had the foresight to realize change would come. I believe they were brilliant in structuring the amendment process to assure a small majority will not be able to make changes for selfish reasons.

Welcome to the forum.
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MisterVeritis

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 17, 2013, 03:51:10 PM
Statistically speaking liberals are more likely to have higher educations, particularly in math and science, than conservatives. 
Assuming you are right why do you think that is?
Just about everyone I know, meaning all those I work with, have degrees in engineering disciplines, math or physics. It is possible that one or two are liberals. All the rest are independents or conservatives.

About twenty percent self-identify as liberals. Twice as many self-identify as conservatives.

And am I going to have to type in hard to read letters on every message I post? If so I will move on to a friendlier site.

Solar

Quote from: MisterVeritis on December 21, 2013, 02:11:04 PM
Assuming you are right why do you think that is?
Just about everyone I know, meaning all those I work with, have degrees in engineering disciplines, math or physics. It is possible that one or two are liberals. All the rest are independents or conservatives.

About twenty percent self-identify as liberals. Twice as many self-identify as conservatives.

And am I going to have to type in hard to read letters on every message I post? If so I will move on to a friendlier site.
Welcome to the forum MV, the moron you just responded to is your typical brain dead lib, believes everything the left ushers out, regardless of fact.
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Dan

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 17, 2013, 03:51:10 PM
Statistically speaking liberals are more likely to have higher educations, particularly in math and science, than conservatives.  But then again, why bother to actually do the research when you can vaguely accuse me of not being able to count...lol the irony here.

What are your sources for this alleged statistical superiority of liberals with math and science?

What does an alleged superiority in science have to do with counting?

What does the alleged superiority of liberals in aggregate have to do with your ability to count?
If you believe big government is the solution then you are a liberal. If you believe big government is the problem then you are a conservative.

daidalos

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 16, 2013, 05:05:40 PM
...it's a blatant argument from authority.  The Constitution was not a final will and testament - the nation exists for current and future generations, not to honor the wishes of our framers.  They even recognized this themselves, hence why they included an amendment process.  I don't think any of them would appreciate our taking their word as though it were divinely mandated, rather than the often inconsistent opinions of intelligent but mortal men.  People bring it up all the time, and its validity still has not been refuted, that the original Constitution condoned the institution of slavery, and didn't even ensure universal suffrage.  Hardly a perfect document.  The idea that a two century old documents could still remotely function just on its original framing is patently absurd, and our authoritative treatment of the "founders' intentions" is based on various false assumptions:

1. That the founders were a homogenous entity, rather than bickering politicians who formed political factions and even challenged one another to duels.
2.  That the founders, for all their intelligence, were so brilliant that they had anticipated modern technological, scientific and cultural developments, and that their opinions remain more sound than our own today, backed by tools such as modern scientific studies and centuries of additional historical data.
3. That the founders really believed in what you thought they did, when they were largely actually intellectuals that were considered incredibly liberal for their time, loathed banks and wanted to separate church and state.
    Side note: It amuses me that Glenn Beck dresses up as and admires Thomas Paine...a militant anti-theist who labeled all organized religions institutions designed to enslave mankind.
4. That the founders don't already have a dubious track record, from slavery to civil rights to obvious loopholes in the Constitution they failed to address.  They were brilliant men for their time, but would themselves not want to be used as authoritative sources in a society that would be virtually unrecognizable to them.



And just to note, the founders were right on a lot of things.  But what they were correct on can be independently justified with logic and evidence, with no need to point out which founder said what beyond simple citation.

First of all, you cannot appropriately, nor correctly interpret the legal meaning of the Constitution and it's purpose unless, you also understand the original intent of why something was placed in the document.

And you are right, while it is indeed the highest law of our nation, it is not immutable, written in stone. Never to be  changed.

If you disagree with something in it, if you don't like that something is in it, you have every right, to use the amendment process and change our Constitution.

Provided you can get enough of your fellow Americans to agree with your position and also call for amending the document.

However, that is not what we have today though.

No instead we have those (liberals) who say throw out original intent, so we can then interpret the Constitution any way WE wish too!

And thus then they may change the Constitution to suit their/our own political will, without having to go through the bother of getting enough Americans to agree with us that we can use and avail ourselves of that old amendment process.

Nice try at arguing against original intent though op.

Whats your next argument against it going to be?

"Well Barack does it, so I can too" as if two wrongs equal a right?
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