Author Topic: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation  (Read 17056 times)

Offline TboneAgain

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2014, 10:02:50 AM »
What young people fail to realize, is none of these issues were ever once considered political.
The commies have taken nearly every aspect of our lives and made it a divisive and political issue as a way of driving a wedge between age groups, race, heritage, culture, sex, you name it, they've made an issue out of it.

What makes us out to look like the bad guy in the eyes of the younger generation, is we were forced into a position of fighting for our way of life, or concede it to leftists.
This I believe is where Libertarians fail to see a Conservatives view on things, they see it as if it is us trying to take away Liberties, when in truth, it was leftists that created the problem in the first place and forced us to push back.

There was a time in this nation when it was libertarian in nature, but as time went by, it was the left wanting more structure, more laws, they forced the Libertarian to compromise, then once they accomplished that, they demanded more change, then more change, they were never happy, change it back, only this time....

And now look at us, we allowed the left to fuck up the country so bad, that it isn't even recognizable anymore.

What he said.

In the span of my lifetime, the phrase 'gay marriage' has evolved from a ridiculous oxymoron, the stuff of teenage jokes, to a phrase that is not only common in the culture, but has been elevated to a legal, even constitutional, issue. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the phrase 'partial birth abortion' has been transformed from a relatively unknown procedure that even the tackiest of tabloids wouldn't describe to a legal, constitutional issue. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, corporal punishment at school has changed from an event that was sure to be followed by corporal punishment at home to an event that is sure to be followed by criminal charges and/or a lawsuit against school personnel. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the act of opening a door for a lady has been transformed from a show of benevolent respect into a show of belittling contempt. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the United States, which once could be said to have never lost a foreign war, has become a nation that cannot win a foreign war, despite possessing the most powerful military forces on Earth. You can thank the Left for that.

The most frightening aspect of this post, as Solar understands, is that I could literally keep typing on this subject all day long because there is simply no end to the examples of the Left altering the landscape, tipping the playing field, moving the goalposts, insert your favorite metaphor here. The Left correctly perceives the overarching importance of its grip on public education, mass media, and the entertainment fields. These are the tools it uses to alter the perceptions of each generation as it emerges from the one before it. Kids growing up today will grow up in a world -- largely fashioned by the Left -- in which gay marriage is a serious social and political (civil rights!) issue and opening a door for a lady is a Thing Not Done.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Online Solar

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2014, 10:50:25 AM »
What he said.

In the span of my lifetime, the phrase 'gay marriage' has evolved from a ridiculous oxymoron, the stuff of teenage jokes, to a phrase that is not only common in the culture, but has been elevated to a legal, even constitutional, issue. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the phrase 'partial birth abortion' has been transformed from a relatively unknown procedure that even the tackiest of tabloids wouldn't describe to a legal, constitutional issue. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, corporal punishment at school has changed from an event that was sure to be followed by corporal punishment at home to an event that is sure to be followed by criminal charges and/or a lawsuit against school personnel. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the act of opening a door for a lady has been transformed from a show of benevolent respect into a show of belittling contempt. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the United States, which once could be said to have never lost a foreign war, has become a nation that cannot win a foreign war, despite possessing the most powerful military forces on Earth. You can thank the Left for that.

The most frightening aspect of this post, as Solar understands, is that I could literally keep typing on this subject all day long because there is simply no end to the examples of the Left altering the landscape, tipping the playing field, moving the goalposts, insert your favorite metaphor here. The Left correctly perceives the overarching importance of its grip on public education, mass media, and the entertainment fields. These are the tools it uses to alter the perceptions of each generation as it emerges from the one before it. Kids growing up today will grow up in a world -- largely fashioned by the Left -- in which gay marriage is a serious social and political (civil rights!) issue and opening a door for a lady is a Thing Not Done.
You're right, a post depicting everything the left has corrupted would take years to complete.

Curious, can you think of some aspect of culture that hasn't been politicized by the leftists?
Hell, even science has been corrupted now, the last vestige of truth and honesty.

It's for this very reason I believe we still have a chance to take back the country. The commies moved too quickly in putting a Marxist in the WH. Had they waited a short 30 years, they wouldn't be seeing the blow-back they are in TEA.
We were on slow boil to socialism, had they waited, none of us would be around that remembers how it's supposed to be.

Because they did what they did, the Dim party exposed themselves for what they truly are, communists, and by doing so literally killed the party as it's known today.

I believe it will take an entire generation for them to recover, simply because they used and abused the latest generation and will need new blood, a clean slate of blissful ignorance in which to corrupt, young people that have no historical reference to better times.

Yes my friend, Nov will be the blade of the executioner striking the neck of the Dim party.
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Offline walkstall

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2014, 03:52:26 PM »
What he said.

In the span of my lifetime, the phrase 'gay marriage' has evolved from a ridiculous oxymoron, the stuff of teenage jokes, to a phrase that is not only common in the culture, but has been elevated to a legal, even constitutional, issue. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the phrase 'partial birth abortion' has been transformed from a relatively unknown procedure that even the tackiest of tabloids wouldn't describe to a legal, constitutional issue. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, corporal punishment at school has changed from an event that was sure to be followed by corporal punishment at home to an event that is sure to be followed by criminal charges and/or a lawsuit against school personnel. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the act of opening a door for a lady has been transformed from a show of benevolent respect into a show of belittling contempt. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the United States, which once could be said to have never lost a foreign war, has become a nation that cannot win a foreign war, despite possessing the most powerful military forces on Earth. You can thank the Left for that.

The most frightening aspect of this post, as Solar understands, is that I could literally keep typing on this subject all day long because there is simply no end to the examples of the Left altering the landscape, tipping the playing field, moving the goalposts, insert your favorite metaphor here. The Left correctly perceives the overarching importance of its grip on public education, mass media, and the entertainment fields. These are the tools it uses to alter the perceptions of each generation as it emerges from the one before it. Kids growing up today will grow up in a world -- largely fashioned by the Left -- in which gay marriage is a serious social and political (civil rights!) issue and opening a door for a lady is a Thing Not Done.

I don't know about you.  But my dad would come out of his grave and kick my ass if I did not open a door for a lady.  (even if she was a lady of the night)
A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.- James Freeman Clarke

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.  ~ Ronald Reagan ~

Always remember "Feelings Aren't Facts."

Offline Novanglus

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2014, 09:55:28 PM »
What he said.

In the span of my lifetime, the phrase 'gay marriage' has evolved from a ridiculous oxymoron, the stuff of teenage jokes, to a phrase that is not only common in the culture, but has been elevated to a legal, even constitutional, issue. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the phrase 'partial birth abortion' has been transformed from a relatively unknown procedure that even the tackiest of tabloids wouldn't describe to a legal, constitutional issue. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, corporal punishment at school has changed from an event that was sure to be followed by corporal punishment at home to an event that is sure to be followed by criminal charges and/or a lawsuit against school personnel. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the act of opening a door for a lady has been transformed from a show of benevolent respect into a show of belittling contempt. You can thank the Left for that.

In the span of my lifetime, the United States, which once could be said to have never lost a foreign war, has become a nation that cannot win a foreign war, despite possessing the most powerful military forces on Earth. You can thank the Left for that.

The most frightening aspect of this post, as Solar understands, is that I could literally keep typing on this subject all day long because there is simply no end to the examples of the Left altering the landscape, tipping the playing field, moving the goalposts, insert your favorite metaphor here. The Left correctly perceives the overarching importance of its grip on public education, mass media, and the entertainment fields. These are the tools it uses to alter the perceptions of each generation as it emerges from the one before it. Kids growing up today will grow up in a world -- largely fashioned by the Left -- in which gay marriage is a serious social and political (civil rights!) issue and opening a door for a lady is a Thing Not Done.

Yes, the left is more dangerous then the right - That is why as a libertarian, I often hold my nose and vote Republican. I can't bring myself to vote for a Democrat, the ass backward economic medaling and social engineering is too much to stomach. Most of them are flat out socialist if not communist; some of them honestly don't realize it and others know what they are but lie. The corruption is ridiculous, Democrats will circle the wagons and defend the most outrageous corruption even when the are caught red handed - Republicans will generally toss out anyone caught red handed.

Offline Jeerleader

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #94 on: October 03, 2014, 07:21:29 PM »
Why do [some] conservatives continue to insist that the 2nd amendment forbids any gun control legislation, even those as simplistic and precedented as background checks?

What "forbids" the federal government to enact gun control legislation isn't the 2nd Amendment; it's the fact that no power was ever granted to it to allow it to have any interest whatsoever in the personal arms of the private citizen.

That means the 2nd Amendment does nothing but redundantly forbid the federal government to exercise powers it was never granted.

To be blunt here, none of our amendment rights are absolute.

Who is arguing for "absolute" rights?  The only people I hear blubbering about the "absolute" right to arms are anti-liberty people employing it as sophistry to argue for government's absolute power to regulate arms.

NRA logic would not be taken seriously were it by a guy who falsely yelled fire in a crowded theater, or who made death threats.  No other right is unqualified, so exactly why do you think bearing arms should be exceptional?

Yours is the flawed logic.  The possession and use of guns is "qualified" in exactly the same manner as the speech that you hold out as exemplary . . .  Just like one can't falsely yell fire in a crowded theater, one can not brandish or threaten another with a firearm.  Neither of those actions are exercises of any rights, speech or arms, which is what makes government's exercise of power restricting those actions legitimate.

So yes, you have the right to own a gun.  This does not mean that the government enact absolutely no regulations to qualify such a right;

All that tells me is that you are arguing from either a profound ignorance of what a right is or are purposely misrepresenting what a right is and its effect on government action.

you know, such as how we already do not let minors own firearms. 

Again, flawed logic.  Minors have always had rights qualified because they are not considered full members of society.  The obverse of that of course is, that all full members of society will have their right to arms recognized and protected . . .   Hardly the conclusion you were hoping to prove.

Do you honestly believe that an armed populace would stand a chance against a modern military force?

Well, the 2nd Amendment doesn't demand tactical equivalency but it is good to remember that the founders / framers expected that whatever "standing army" could be amassed would be outnumbered ("opposed" was the word Madison used) by an overwhelming number of armed citizens.  Madison put the ratio at between 17 to 20 "citizens with arms in their hands" for each soldier; today that advantage has widened to around 25 armed citizens for every member of the active duty and reserve military.

As a result, what both sides of the debate should be doing is answering the question: will a gun law cause more harm than good?  Look at the empirical data and studies.  If a regulation will save lives and improve the net state of society, it should be enacted regardless of the 2nd amendment.

That's not the legal standard (thankfully).


Offline Jeerleader

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #95 on: October 03, 2014, 07:51:03 PM »
So you don't believe in jails?  After all they deprive you of liberty.  The death penalty deprives you of life.  So you're conceding that these rights are qualified, and "unalienable" was a rhetorical embellishment.

Those rights are impacted under accepted rules of due process.  No right is absolute in an ordered society but under our form of government "rights" are considered to emanate from a plane above the legislative acts of man. 

The Constitution is a charter of conferred powers, powers the people have always possessed and have only lent to government.  All not conferred is retained by the people and that includes the individual citizen's right to keep and bear arms, free of any conditioning or qualification derived from the powers granted through the Constitution.

The Supreme Court has been boringly consistent re-affirming this principle for going on 140 years . . .   That the right to arms is not granted, given, created or established by the 2nd Amendment thus the right to arms is not in any manner dependent on the Constitution for its existence.
 
Naturally you also forget that these rights were by no means "self evident" since no society had truly implemented them until arguably a few decades ago in modern history.  It took millions of lives, hardly sounds "self evident" to me, otherwise the Romans would have been a free society.

Well, arguably these concepts, (of inherent rights with some being so intrinsic that they can not be conferred to another -- AKA unalienable rights) originated as oppositional philosophies to the divine right of the King to rule.  The great political treatises of the late 17th century from Locke and Sidney and especially Hutchenson, is when they made their debut.

Of course, back then the founders / framers didn't have the benefit of the wonderful communitarian philosophies of Marx and Engles . . .  But that doesn't stop modern leftists from arguing those ideals are represented / supported in the US Constitution.  That fact, that they are not supported is why leftists spend so much time trying to stomp out the foundational principles of the Constitution.


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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2014, 11:21:15 AM »

Online Solar

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2014, 12:57:41 PM »
It seems like California has a little bright light. Very small though.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-California/2014/11/12/Ninth-Circuit-Denies-California-Appeal-Eased-Concealed-Carry-Requirements-Stand
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
This is excellent news and a slap upside the head of liberalism/Marxism.
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zewazir

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2014, 10:11:27 PM »
To be blunt here, none of our amendment rights are absolute.  Your freedom of speech does not extend to libel or slander.  Your freedom of religion stops where your religion conflicts with the law.  Not even the 13 amendment is absolute.  In all these instances, exceptions are made when your freedoms are outweighed by those of others, or the general welfare of society.
This is without a doubt the most commonly used fallacy of the gun control movement.  The age old "You can't yell 'fire!' in a crowded theater.  The problem with this statement is the manner it is used. The analogy given first by Oliver Wendall Holmes has been both misused and misunderstood since it was first uttered. What was originally meant by the analogy is that one cannot cause harm in the exercise of their rights, then hide behind the Bill of Rights to escape any consequences of their actions. The fact is you CAN yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, and the ONLY time there will be legal action (either criminal or civil) for doing so is if another person is harmed by your doing so.  In ALL OTHER CASES, the most that would happen is an usher may see you to the nearest exit.

The same is true in respect to all other rights. NO RIGHT is PRE-limited by law or regulation. It is ONLY limited in the fact that one cannot excuse harmful action by claiming they were "just exercising their rights." The reality is the ONLY limit of rights is when they cause harm, and then only after the fact.

So, when it comes to the 2nd Amendment, the PEOPLE (not the Militia alone, but the PEOPLE who make up the militia) have the protected right (NOT "granted" by the 2nd Amendment, but PROTECTED from government interference) to keep and bear arms. Now, the limit on this right, if one were to put it ON THE SAME LEVEL as other rights (not ABOVE, as the author tries to claim, but EQUAL) then the only limitation government can place on that right is to prosecute those who do harm.

The government does not regulate speech, nor prosecute people who say things or write things that do not result in harm. Nor does the government regulate or prosecute people for exercising any other right, UNLESS the action results in harm.  Yet the "reasonable" gun control advocates keep claiming they need to regulate the 2nd Amendment, even though the vast majority of firearms owners have done no harm.

WHAT IS THE HARM to you, or anyone, if I were to own a (lets go big, but not TOO ridiculous), a 30mm Vulcan gatling gun? Can you point to the harm in mere ownership of ANY weapon? You claim 2nd Amendment advocates put the 2nd on a higher pedestal. I counter with the claim that it is gun control advocates who put the 2nd on a LOWER pedestal.

For no other right do people advocate the idea that we must prove in advance that we are "worthy" of exercising that right. (at least, no more than a handful of extremist kooks) For no other right do people advocate that we must PAY for that right. (REF. ALL gun licensing laws) The closest one can come to give an example of pre-limiting a right is those areas that have voter ID laws. And that does not work in favor of regulating the 2nd Amendment because the right to vote is already limited to CITIZENS who are of age 18 or older, and it is therefore in the best interest of the people to assure that those casting votes are eligible under the Constitution. But, of note, is the fact that all other means of regulating the vote, such as poll taxes and exams, have been ruled as unconstitutional.

The 2nd Amendment has no such restrictions, but is rather protected for the PEOPLE. (That means ALL of us, every Jack, Tom, and Christine.) Therefore, to treat the 2nd Amendment EQUALLY to all other rights, the state must be able to prove harm PRIOR to regulating the right, or prosecuting a person for improperly exercising that right.

Online Solar

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2014, 07:58:50 AM »
This is without a doubt the most commonly used fallacy of the gun control movement.  The age old "You can't yell 'fire!' in a crowded theater.  The problem with this statement is the manner it is used. The analogy given first by Oliver Wendall Holmes has been both misused and misunderstood since it was first uttered. What was originally meant by the analogy is that one cannot cause harm in the exercise of their rights, then hide behind the Bill of Rights to escape any consequences of their actions. The fact is you CAN yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, and the ONLY time there will be legal action (either criminal or civil) for doing so is if another person is harmed by your doing so.  In ALL OTHER CASES, the most that would happen is an usher may see you to the nearest exit.

The same is true in respect to all other rights. NO RIGHT is PRE-limited by law or regulation. It is ONLY limited in the fact that one cannot excuse harmful action by claiming they were "just exercising their rights." The reality is the ONLY limit of rights is when they cause harm, and then only after the fact.

So, when it comes to the 2nd Amendment, the PEOPLE (not the Militia alone, but the PEOPLE who make up the militia) have the protected right (NOT "granted" by the 2nd Amendment, but PROTECTED from government interference) to keep and bear arms. Now, the limit on this right, if one were to put it ON THE SAME LEVEL as other rights (not ABOVE, as the author tries to claim, but EQUAL) then the only limitation government can place on that right is to prosecute those who do harm.

The government does not regulate speech, nor prosecute people who say things or write things that do not result in harm. Nor does the government regulate or prosecute people for exercising any other right, UNLESS the action results in harm.  Yet the "reasonable" gun control advocates keep claiming they need to regulate the 2nd Amendment, even though the vast majority of firearms owners have done no harm.

WHAT IS THE HARM to you, or anyone, if I were to own a (lets go big, but not TOO ridiculous), a 30mm Vulcan gatling gun? Can you point to the harm in mere ownership of ANY weapon? You claim 2nd Amendment advocates put the 2nd on a higher pedestal. I counter with the claim that it is gun control advocates who put the 2nd on a LOWER pedestal.

For no other right do people advocate the idea that we must prove in advance that we are "worthy" of exercising that right. (at least, no more than a handful of extremist kooks) For no other right do people advocate that we must PAY for that right. (REF. ALL gun licensing laws) The closest one can come to give an example of pre-limiting a right is those areas that have voter ID laws. And that does not work in favor of regulating the 2nd Amendment because the right to vote is already limited to CITIZENS who are of age 18 or older, and it is therefore in the best interest of the people to assure that those casting votes are eligible under the Constitution. But, of note, is the fact that all other means of regulating the vote, such as poll taxes and exams, have been ruled as unconstitutional.

The 2nd Amendment has no such restrictions, but is rather protected for the PEOPLE. (That means ALL of us, every Jack, Tom, and Christine.) Therefore, to treat the 2nd Amendment EQUALLY to all other rights, the state must be able to prove harm PRIOR to regulating the right, or prosecuting a person for improperly exercising that right.
Well stated zewazir and welcome to the forum.
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Offline red_dirt

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Re: The 2nd Amendment and Gun Legislation
« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2015, 06:48:32 PM »
Think they will get away with this ?

This is like the inmates making the rules for the prison.


 

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