Author Topic: Taxation and the Constitution  (Read 8622 times)

Offline MatthewG

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Taxation and the Constitution
« on: November 12, 2013, 09:41:19 PM »

I was surprised to learn that our Constitution actually conflicts with one of the Amendments. My favorite investment author, John Reed, pointed out that there is actually a tax plan inherent in the Constitution itself. It's what Reed calls a "head tax" (I like Reed's own version of a head tax but I fear that a head tax may keep the IRS around and slow down the economy while people save money for taxation which is why I tend to favor the Fair Tax instead). When the first income tax legislation was passed, it was declared unconstitutional. So what happened? A constitutional amendment was passed into law making a progressive income tax constitutional! This was a big mistake in my judgment. http://johntreed.com/headline/2011/04/25/abolish-the-income-tax/

As I see it, there are two reasonable options: having the head tax as the Constitution originally had it or a Fair Tax which I like better. Having a head tax might slow down the economy because people would still be saving up money in order to be able to pay their taxes by a set deadline. Not that I like going against the Constitution but I think that if our founding fathers had heard of the Fair Tax or something similar, they would've liked it and made the Fair Tax the only constitutional method of taxation. We need to get rid of the progressive income tax. As I see it, it's another attempt by political progressives to wage a silly war on greed. I don't like greed one bit. In fact, I abhor greed. But I don't see how any income tax, progressive or not, is going to rid our country of greed.


Offline TboneAgain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4406
  • Gender: Male
  • Alex, I'll try "THINGS ONLY I KNOW" for $200.
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 02:07:10 AM »
I was surprised to learn that our Constitution actually conflicts with one of the Amendments. My favorite investment author, John Reed, pointed out that there is actually a tax plan inherent in the Constitution itself. It's what Reed calls a "head tax" (I like Reed's own version of a head tax but I fear that a head tax may keep the IRS around and slow down the economy while people save money for taxation which is why I tend to favor the Fair Tax instead). When the first income tax legislation was passed, it was declared unconstitutional. So what happened? A constitutional amendment was passed into law making a progressive income tax constitutional! This was a big mistake in my judgment. http://johntreed.com/headline/2011/04/25/abolish-the-income-tax/

As I see it, there are two reasonable options: having the head tax as the Constitution originally had it or a Fair Tax which I like better. Having a head tax might slow down the economy because people would still be saving up money in order to be able to pay their taxes by a set deadline. Not that I like going against the Constitution but I think that if our founding fathers had heard of the Fair Tax or something similar, they would've liked it and made the Fair Tax the only constitutional method of taxation. We need to get rid of the progressive income tax. As I see it, it's another attempt by political progressives to wage a silly war on greed. I don't like greed one bit. In fact, I abhor greed. But I don't see how any income tax, progressive or not, is going to rid our country of greed.

Welcome to the board!

Amendments amend, meaning that they change things. We can except the first ten amendments, as they actually changed nothing. They comprise what has come to called the Bill of Rights, and for all intents and purposes have become part and parcel of the document itself.

Yes, the original text of the Constitution prohibited "capitation taxes," that being a tax levied "by head" or by person. (The Latin origin of the word refers to the head; think "decapitation.") But more to the point, the original Constitution did not allow the new federal government to tax much of anything that didn't involve foreign or interstate commerce.

Greed? It's the stuff of life! No man creates a business in order to be "nice" or "friendly" or "public-spirited." He creates a business to make money, period. If you want to Scrooge it up with calling it "greed," fine. "Greed" is just a Leftist term for "motivation." We don't need to rid the country of "greed." We need to instill "greed" in every child.

I doubt if the Founders could have comprehended the Fair Tax. The necessity for proposals such as the Fair Tax is derived from the initiation of the Internal Revenue Code, which dates from 1913, the year Woodrow Wilson signed the first income tax legislation. (Until then, income tax was illegal.) The Founders saw the federal government as distant and -- most importantly -- small.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Offline MatthewG

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2013, 10:51:32 AM »
Welcome to the board!

Thanks!

Quote
Greed? It's the stuff of life! No man creates a business in order to be "nice" or "friendly" or "public-spirited." He creates a business to make money, period. If you want to Scrooge it up with calling it "greed," fine. "Greed" is just a Leftist term for "motivation." We don't need to rid the country of "greed." We need to instill "greed" in every child.

 Conservatives often speak of the left as having waged a "war-on-achievement" but, having been a part of the left for quite a number of years, in their thinking it's a "war-on-greed". They see greed as a consequence of selfishness. Many progressives abhor selfishness. In fact, this is what I didn't like about free-market enterprise in my progressive years. I considered it a selfish, greed-centered, Social Darwinist, "nice-guys-finish-last" economy of capitalist bad boys and I looked to the government to protect the underdog from capitalist bullies. Nowadays, I see greed as a unfortunate consequence of the free-market. I see the existence of hate speech is an unfortunate consequence of a free society, where everyone should have the right to speak freely; greed is also an unfortunate consequence of a free society where everyone should pursue success regardless of what motivates them. But I value a free society and so I will tolerate hate speech even if I condemn it. I believe that everyone should be able to pursue success and become wealthy even if I don't care for greed as a motivation.

Quote
I doubt if the Founders could have comprehended the Fair Tax. The necessity for proposals such as the Fair Tax is derived from the initiation of the Internal Revenue Code, which dates from 1913, the year Woodrow Wilson signed the first income tax legislation. (Until then, income tax was illegal.) The Founders saw the federal government as distant and -- most importantly -- small.

I think it's possible that they could've. If they had similar knowledge to what we had today, I think they would've liked it. Had they known about the income tax and the desire of progressives to implement it as part of their "war-on-greed", they might have liked it or at least have been very sympathetic to it.

Offline TboneAgain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4406
  • Gender: Male
  • Alex, I'll try "THINGS ONLY I KNOW" for $200.
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 11:46:55 AM »
You can call it what you will -- greed, avarice, a lust for wealth, or just a desire to be better off than you are now. Remove it, Matthew, and everything stops. Suddenly there is no logical, rational reason for anyone to start a business or hire a new employee or invest a dollar in a new enterprise. And like it or not, people do things by and large for logical, rational reasons.

Businesses aren't charities, they're not organs for doing public good works. They are specifically designed enterprises by which the owners perform or provide goods or services for willing customers who pay enough, in money or other trade, to recompense the business owner -- and then some. That's called profit, and profit is the one and only reason most businesses exist.

If I go to my business today and provide you with goods and services worth $1,000, and you pay me exactly $1,000 in return, then I'll go home at the end of the day poorer for my effort. I didn't break even. I got screwed. I can't go to the store and buy a loaf of bread with what I made today. I've given a day's labor for nothing.

As far as "hate speech" goes, forget it. The whole concept is just one more tool the Left uses to divide us all into manageable chunks. Free speech may have its limits -- you're not supposed to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theater for obvious reasons -- but for the most part, if you look carefully, you'll see that those who want to dictate to you what you cannot say (or what you absolutely must say) are on the Left.

You have to learn the "turnaround." In general, when you hear somebody holler 'Racist!' the thing to do is not look where the finger is pointing at the accused 'racist,' but turn around and look at who uttered the word. THERE is the racist, every time.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Offline MatthewG

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 12:17:29 PM »
You can call it what you will -- greed, avarice, a lust for wealth, or just a desire to be better off than you are now. Remove it, Matthew, and everything stops. Suddenly there is no logical, rational reason for anyone to start a business or hire a new employee or invest a dollar in a new enterprise. And like it or not, people do things by and large for logical, rational reasons.

 I completely understand the profit motive for most businesses. I happy accept that people will do what it takes to make them better off than they were to begin with. It's not necessarily the profit motive that I have an issue with. It's the excessive desire for profits that will lead people to go to third world countries and set up sweat shops that pay people a very low wage. There are corporations that do something like this shamefully. The people who run these sweat shops appear to have not one ethical bone in their body about exploiting the workers. If such a motive is to be rewarded and applauded, then I grieve for humanity.

Quote
Businesses aren't charities, they're not organs for doing public good works. They are specifically designed enterprises by which the owners perform or provide goods or services for willing customers who pay enough, in money or other trade, to recompense the business owner -- and then some. That's called profit, and profit is the one and only reason most businesses exist.

If I go to my business today and provide you with goods and services worth $1,000, and you pay me exactly $1,000 in return, then I'll go home at the end of the day poorer for my effort. I didn't break even. I got screwed. I can't go to the store and buy a loaf of bread with what I made today. I've given a day's labor for nothing.

You know, if I was ten years old and I was extremely naïve about the world, then perhaps there would be a point to you telling me this. I hate to disappoint you, but I am 35 years old. I know what a profit is and I don't need any of my fellow conservatives to condescend to lecture me on the topic as though I was born yesterday. No offense but I find this just a tad bit insulting. I suspect you mean well but if we traded shoes and you were put in my shoes, wouldn't you feel a bit put off by this? I am no stranger to business. I come from a middle class family of business owners and I have worked in the private sector for a long time.

Quote
As far as "hate speech" goes, forget it. The whole concept is just one more tool the Left uses to divide us all into manageable chunks. Free speech may have its limits -- you're not supposed to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theater for obvious reasons -- but for the most part, if you look carefully, you'll see that those who want to dictate to you what you cannot say (or what you absolutely must say) are on the Left.

Wait a minute. I never said that I wanted to abolish hate speech. I don't like it when gay people are called names like "fa**ot" or when conservatives are called "stupid". I consider that to be hate speech. I don't like it and I condemn it but it's part of a free society. I have come to accept that there will always be hate speech. We can condemn it but as Thomas Sowell pointed out, it's a compromise. We have to take the bad along with the good.

Quote
You have to learn the "turnaround." In general, when you hear somebody holler 'Racist!' the thing to do is not look where the finger is pointing at the accused 'racist,' but turn around and look at who uttered the word. THERE is the racist, every time.

I already learned this. I learned that it is often the biggest people who whine about hate speech who are the most guilty of it. Also, the progressive who accuses conservatives of being selfish is often the most selfish person in town. The conservative who yells out "fa**ot" at a gay man just because he's dressed more feminine or holding hands with another guy is often, himself (or herself) gay or bisexual.

Offline TboneAgain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4406
  • Gender: Male
  • Alex, I'll try "THINGS ONLY I KNOW" for $200.
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2013, 12:40:28 PM »
I don't mean to lecture, and I don't want to insult your intelligence. But you seem to think there's some magic line that separates "greed" from "profit." I think you're leaving out the nature of speculation/investment. When you put your resources into an enterprise, no matter what you think your return will be, you don't actually KNOW. That's why it's called 'risk.' But whether your return is pennies or millions, it's YOURS, and if you don't keep it, you're a fool.

Tell me, who draws that line that separates profit from greed? Our Great Kenyan Leader has stated that there comes a point where "you've made enough money." Where is that point? Why is that point, that point? Who gets to say what/where that point is? I note that the Kenyan himself, between taxpayer-financed vacays in Hawaii and Martha's Vineyard costing tens of millions of dollars, and 150+ rounds of golf, all at taxpayer expense, has managed to cash his paychecks -- $450,000 per annum -- and his book royalty checks.

The Kenyan has never in his entire life produced a single product (save the books) that another free man was willing to buy. Why is he knocking down something north of a half-mil every year? Because he can.

Is that 'greed?' What do you think?
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Offline Ek Ehecatl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't re-elect anyone!!
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 03:43:10 PM »
What the Lefties like to call "greed" I call "Fear of Poverty"....wakes me up early everyday.
The USA is fast becoming "The Land of the Fleeced and the home of de-praved"....
God save the Republic!!
Ek

Offline supsalemgr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12052
  • Gender: Male
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2013, 04:54:55 AM »
I don't mean to lecture, and I don't want to insult your intelligence. But you seem to think there's some magic line that separates "greed" from "profit." I think you're leaving out the nature of speculation/investment. When you put your resources into an enterprise, no matter what you think your return will be, you don't actually KNOW. That's why it's called 'risk.' But whether your return is pennies or millions, it's YOURS, and if you don't keep it, you're a fool.

Tell me, who draws that line that separates profit from greed? Our Great Kenyan Leader has stated that there comes a point where "you've made enough money." Where is that point? Why is that point, that point? Who gets to say what/where that point is? I note that the Kenyan himself, between taxpayer-financed vacays in Hawaii and Martha's Vineyard costing tens of millions of dollars, and 150+ rounds of golf, all at taxpayer expense, has managed to cash his paychecks -- $450,000 per annum -- and his book royalty checks.

The Kenyan has never in his entire life produced a single product (save the books) that another free man was willing to buy. Why is he knocking down something north of a half-mil every year? Because he can.

Is that 'greed?' What do you think?

It all boils down to what is the definition of greed. I personally think there is no correlation between greed and profit. However, progressives believe they can set the definition and make a determination of where the desire for profits become greed. What they don't understand is it is none of their business how much profit an entity makes.
"If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch!"

Offline TboneAgain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4406
  • Gender: Male
  • Alex, I'll try "THINGS ONLY I KNOW" for $200.
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 05:08:42 AM »
It all boils down to what is the definition of greed. I personally think there is no correlation between greed and profit. However, progressives believe they can set the definition and make a determination of where the desire for profits become greed. What they don't understand is it is none of their business how much profit an entity makes.

Oh, well said!  :thumbsup:

The federal government was created to do just a few things, clearly called out in the Constitution. Not a single one of those things involves monitoring the profits of any private business.

My point was that there is no clear line between "profit" and "greed." They are merely different ways of expressing the same concept.

Read your history. The folks who landed at Plymouth Rock (mainly because they were out of beer  :tounge:) tried it the socialist way for a while... until they realized they were quite literally starving to death. They had made the mistake of taking profit/greed out of the equation.

I would favor abandoning both terms -- profit and greed -- in favor of just one -- incentive.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Online taxed

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22226
  • Gender: Male
  • At some point, the money is due.
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 10:57:21 AM »
Thanks!

 Conservatives often speak of the left as having waged a "war-on-achievement" but, having been a part of the left for quite a number of years, in their thinking it's a "war-on-greed". They see greed as a consequence of selfishness. Many progressives abhor selfishness. In fact, this is what I didn't like about free-market enterprise in my progressive years. I considered it a selfish, greed-centered, Social Darwinist, "nice-guys-finish-last" economy of capitalist bad boys and I looked to the government to protect the underdog from capitalist bullies. Nowadays, I see greed as a unfortunate consequence of the free-market. I see the existence of hate speech is an unfortunate consequence of a free society, where everyone should have the right to speak freely; greed is also an unfortunate consequence of a free society where everyone should pursue success regardless of what motivates them. But I value a free society and so I will tolerate hate speech even if I condemn it. I believe that everyone should be able to pursue success and become wealthy even if I don't care for greed as a motivation.

I think it's possible that they could've. If they had similar knowledge to what we had today, I think they would've liked it. Had they known about the income tax and the desire of progressives to implement it as part of their "war-on-greed", they might have liked it or at least have been very sympathetic to it.

The free market keeps greed in check.  A businessman can be as greedy as he can, but he will never beat the free market.  Government hinders the free market, hurts consumers, and businesses. 

Offline TboneAgain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4406
  • Gender: Male
  • Alex, I'll try "THINGS ONLY I KNOW" for $200.
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2013, 11:11:28 AM »
The free market keeps greed in check.  A businessman can be as greedy as he can, but he will never beat the free market.  Government hinders the free market, hurts consumers, and businesses.

Exactly. Government cheats. Read my bottom sig line -- government is force. It bends what doesn't want to be bent.

In a free market, the ruling concept is competition, the "unseen hand." When government interferes, suddenly it's hammers pounding and swords slashing and guns firing, not to enforce a free market, but specifically to eliminate a free market.

Government hates free markets, not because they're bad, but because they're the exact opposite of government. Free markets are "un-government."
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; IT IS FORCE. -- George Washington

Online taxed

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 22226
  • Gender: Male
  • At some point, the money is due.
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 11:20:30 AM »
Exactly. Government cheats. Read my bottom sig line -- government is force. It bends what doesn't want to be bent.

In a free market, the ruling concept is competition, the "unseen hand." When government interferes, suddenly it's hammers pounding and swords slashing and guns firing, not to enforce a free market, but specifically to eliminate a free market.

Government hates free markets, not because they're bad, but because they're the exact opposite of government. Free markets are "un-government."

Totally... when the greedy businessman tries to pay too low, or raise prices too high, or reap too much of the profit without putting back into growth, etc., the competition swoops in and keeps him in check.

Offline MatthewG

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2013, 05:46:26 PM »
I don't mean to lecture, and I don't want to insult your intelligence. But you seem to think there's some magic line that separates "greed" from "profit." I think you're leaving out the nature of speculation/investment. When you put your resources into an enterprise, no matter what you think your return will be, you don't actually KNOW. That's why it's called 'risk.' But whether your return is pennies or millions, it's YOURS, and if you don't keep it, you're a fool.

I understand. I don't think that there is a magical line that separates greed from a profit. A profit is something that results from the selling of an item on the market regardless of what motive went into making that item. Greed is a motive and a profit is something that results from that motive. However, greed is not the only motive behind making a profit. Sometimes it's the mere need to etch out a living. My parents try hard to make their business profitable but they're not greedy people. My parents are also Evangelicals who believe that greed is contrary to the New Testament. Greed is selfish by nature and selfishness is opposed to the gospel. To them, greed is a consequence of selfishness and being selfish is sinful. My parents aren't Democrats or any kind of progressive; they're both staunch Reagan conservatives if that makes any difference.

Quote
Tell me, who draws that line that separates profit from greed? Our Great Kenyan Leader has stated that there comes a point where "you've made enough money." Where is that point?

I don't see how the line can be drawn. I am not one to draw it. But it doesn't mean that I have to like sweat shops in third world countries or just shrug my shoulders and say "It's every man for himself and as long as I got mine you can join the devil in the pits of hell". I don't think that there is any such thing as "enough money". As long as a profit is legally and honestly made, the rightful owner of that profit is the one who made it. There is this sense of "unfairness" coming from the left but a profit is only unfair if it has been made illegally ( a pyramid scheme) or dishonestly ( a used car salesman ripping someone off) or both (I have a slimeball like Robert Kiyosaki in mind; I consider him a heinously evil man).

Offline MatthewG

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2013, 05:47:16 PM »
It all boils down to what is the definition of greed. I personally think there is no correlation between greed and profit. However, progressives believe they can set the definition and make a determination of where the desire for profits become greed. What they don't understand is it is none of their business how much profit an entity makes.

No disagreement from me there!  :smile:

Offline MatthewG

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Taxation and the Constitution
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2013, 05:49:23 PM »
The free market keeps greed in check.  A businessman can be as greedy as he can, but he will never beat the free market.  Government hinders the free market, hurts consumers, and businesses.

I hope so. I have been a conservative for almost two years now. I am having to "unlearn" a lot of things that I previously believed to be true so I am probably going to sound ignorant from time to time.

 

Powered by EzPortal