Author Topic: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant  (Read 7428 times)

Offline kramarat

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2013, 10:34:39 AM »
Yes, they can be turned, but it's very difficult for us to do with facts, it requires breaking through their emotional wall and connection to their leftist religion.
However, with that said, Hussein has been a blessing in disguise, he, with the help of the Dim party managed to rip freedoms away from their supporters, his need to spy on Americans, use personal information via the IRS to hurt his opposition, all this has taken a toll on what they believed to be the right path.

Now they are beginning to look at liberalism and it's end goals with an eye of severe distrust, which will be reflected in 2014.
Many of these libs that bought the Hope and Change BS are now a little older and after being beaten across the knees with the socialist agenda, are beginning to look for yet another political option, one that touts more freedoms, less Govt intrusion, and that leads them towards Libertarianism, and who do they see as representative of that movement?
Rand Paul, who happens to be Tea party, which makes them look further into what the Tea party is, and what they are discovering is that it's not the lie the Dims sold them, it's about a return towards the Founders dreams.

In other words, these kids are angry and will be looking for an alternative to the Dim party and even if they don't vote Tea, they won't be voting Dim.

I swear... I talk to these people, and I think a republican, conservative, or anybody else, (preferably a small government constitutionally conservative republican, (if there are any)), could sweep the lib vote, if part of the platform was phasing out GMO crops until they have had further study. A person that utters those words will have the backing of a huge portion of the lib population. Maybe Rand will do it.

I talked to a friend in Santa Cruz last weekend, and they marched in the streets, (against Obama), over the nomination of Taylor, and his Monsanto connections.

Offline Solar

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2013, 10:48:56 AM »
I swear... I talk to these people, and I think a republican, conservative, or anybody else, (preferably a small government constitutionally conservative republican, (if there are any)), could sweep the lib vote, if part of the platform was phasing out GMO crops until they have had further study. A person that utters those words will have the backing of a huge portion of the lib population. Maybe Rand will do it.

I talked to a friend in Santa Cruz last weekend, and they marched in the streets, (against Obama), over the nomination of Taylor, and his Monsanto connections.
Ya know, that's a good idea for someone wanting to get the recognition of these people.
It could easily be approached as a self sufficient/independent kind of issue, not attacking GMO, but rather steer them towards community farms, campaign to free up Govt land for farming and tell them to buy heirloom seeds in an effort to preserve natural seed lines, natural DNA.

Yeah, I know, community farming sounds like a socialist ideal, but it's what rings through to these people, especially Santa Cruz hippies.
Anyone that uses that as a platform will only gain support. It's not like they insulted GMO, rather touted a natural way of life, again, something that really appeals to a large part of the Dims base.
Especially if they can use public land for the purpose of growing food.
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Offline AndyJackson

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2013, 10:57:41 AM »
wow, that's a pretty nice idea.

Tea Partiers could be customizing / tailoring their campaigns to these liberal hot buttons, and they're good solid issues for conservative / libertarian beliefs anyway.

I'm dead serious, somebody should somehow put this strategy in the ear of the TP hopefuls out there.  Finally a tactical effort to rival the rabid libs.

Out with the gifts to DNC-MSM that keep killing us...abortion, religion, budget cuts to handouts, etc........in with Monsanto, NSA, IRS, AP, drones, etc.

I'm not saying abandon the former beliefs, just go a whole campaign with nothing but the things  that will confuse the libs.  Conservatives will know what's up.

Then revisit the other stuff when you're safely elected.

Offline AndyJackson

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2013, 11:01:20 AM »
A few? That the facts, and Constitution itself stand with me is not an insult. It only shows your knowledge to be lacking.

One of us will have to yield, lol.

OK......I yield to the genitalman from the state of confusion.....

Offline kramarat

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2013, 11:13:34 AM »
wow, that's a pretty nice idea.

Tea Partiers could be customizing / tailoring their campaigns to these liberal hot buttons, and they're good solid issues for conservative / libertarian beliefs anyway.

I'm dead serious, somebody should somehow put this strategy in the ear of the TP hopefuls out there.  Finally a tactical effort to rival the rabid libs.

Out with the gifts to DNC-MSM that keep killing us...abortion, religion, budget cuts to handouts, etc........in with Monsanto, NSA, IRS, AP, drones, etc.

I'm not saying abandon the former beliefs, just go a whole campaign with nothing but the things  that will confuse the libs.  Conservatives will know what's up.

Then revisit the other stuff when you're safely elected.

There's nothing confusing.

Roundup ready food crops are a freaking disaster waiting to happen. Combined with the spliced in bt toxin, and it's a nightmare.

This can be completely used to expose government corruption and crony capitalism at it's absolute worst. Obama's in it up to his big ears.

Offline Solar

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2013, 12:36:36 PM »
wow, that's a pretty nice idea.

Tea Partiers could be customizing / tailoring their campaigns to these liberal hot buttons, and they're good solid issues for conservative / libertarian beliefs anyway.

I'm dead serious, somebody should somehow put this strategy in the ear of the TP hopefuls out there.  Finally a tactical effort to rival the rabid libs.

Out with the gifts to DNC-MSM that keep killing us...abortion, religion, budget cuts to handouts, etc........in with Monsanto, NSA, IRS, AP, drones, etc.

I'm not saying abandon the former beliefs, just go a whole campaign with nothing but the things  that will confuse the libs.  Conservatives will know what's up.

Then revisit the other stuff when you're safely elected.
I guarantee you, they'll see this and run with it.

Keep an ear out for a campaign based on this or something similar, should be interesting.
Hell, maybe they'll even join and we can support them. :wink:
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Offline AndyJackson

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2013, 07:37:34 PM »
There's nothing confusing.

Roundup ready food crops are a freaking disaster waiting to happen. Combined with the spliced in bt toxin, and it's a nightmare.

This can be completely used to expose government corruption and crony capitalism at it's absolute worst. Obama's in it up to his big ears.
Confusing for them only in the context that they expect, at all times, for us to hand everything to them on a silver platter, with which to beat us.

If we don't, they'll be confused for a while, then scream "unfair !"

Offline kramarat

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2013, 03:18:35 AM »
Confusing for them only in the context that they expect, at all times, for us to hand everything to them on a silver platter, with which to beat us.

If we don't, they'll be confused for a while, then scream "unfair !"

Some of them. MSM makes it look like all libs are political activists...they aren't.

You'd be surprised how many people, that would be considered libs, are completely disengaged.
When I was talking to my Santa Cruz buddy last weekend, I brought up Benghazi, and he didn't have the slightest clue what I was talking about. As incredible as that was, I shifted gears and started talking about GMO and Monsanto, and he was all over it...we ended up talking for an hour.

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2013, 03:58:22 AM »
Yes, they can be turned, but it's very difficult for us to do with facts, it requires breaking through their emotional wall and connection to their leftist religion.
However, with that said, Hussein has been a blessing in disguise, he, with the help of the Dim party managed to rip freedoms away from their supporters, his need to spy on Americans, use personal information via the IRS to hurt his opposition, all this has taken a toll on what they believed to be the right path.

Now they are beginning to look at liberalism and it's end goals with an eye of severe distrust, which will be reflected in 2014.


Many of these libs that bought the Hope and Change BS are now a little older and after being beaten across the knees with the socialist agenda, are beginning to look for yet another political option, one that touts more freedoms, less Govt intrusion, and that leads them towards Libertarianism, and who do they see as representative of that movement?
Rand Paul, who happens to be Tea party, which makes them look further into what the Tea party is, and what they are discovering is that it's not the lie the Dims sold them, it's about a return towards the Founders dreams.

In other words, these kids are angry and will be looking for an alternative to the Dim party and even if they don't vote Tea, they won't be voting Dim.

HOW do you actually dissuade those who are undeniably "rabid ideologues"?

Ideologues do not care about real-world outcome. Instead they embrace ideology with outcome being sacrificed, and often tens of millions of lives along with it. 

We see the same rabid ideology being repeated again and again in Communism into modern times Progressivism, but it didn't start when Marx first put pen to paper either.

The same big-government Utopian planers and Keynesian economists have never ever given into outcome. The fact is that no country ever in the history of man has actually stimulated the economy with government directed economic impulse. America's attempts during and after WWII failed and only extended the depression.    The Chinese, with the biggest stimulus ever in proportion to the economy, did not accomplish even a blip. Despite these realities  this is what they still chose to do for our own economy, and despite it failing and no recovery in sight, they still insist that it only needs "more". It's still possible to turn on the News talk programs and hear them talk about the need for further stimulus, government investment in infrastructure,  and mocking supply-side "trickle down" Reaganomics.

Have these "libs" actually abandoned their ideological bent? Maybe a few, but not really all that many of them.   They just feel that Obama has betrayed them in his corporate associations.    And that is what they're protesting with nominations like Taylor, and his association with Monsanto.

The problem is these rabid ideologues, in disregard to outcome, are not limited to the radical Progressive Marxists, but all also represented by other idealized (Utopian) groups that are somewhat more "moderate" in government involvement, such as  the Libertarians whose intended outcome is virtually identical with the Progressives.

It's very disturbing to hear that our salvation to the current  Progressive destruction is somehow seen to be in the Libertarian Rand Paul, even as recently voiced by Chris Matthews.

I'm reminded of the Robert Frost poem,  Fire and Ice.

  • Some say the world will end in fire,
    Some say in ice.... 

The truth is.... either would suffice.

Our form of government is a fine balance between limited government, and the social responsibility of the citizenry, and not just unfettered individual freedom.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 04:30:43 AM by Trip »

Offline kramarat

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2013, 04:41:12 AM »
HOW do you actually dissuade those who are undeniably "rabid ideologues"?

Ideologues do not care about real-world outcome. Instead they embrace ideology with outcome being sacrificed, and often tens of millions of lives along with it. 

We see the same rabid ideology being repeated again and again in Communism into modern times Progressivism, but it didn't start when Marx first put pen to paper either.

The same big-government Utopian planers and Keynesian economists have never ever given into outcome. The fact is that no country ever in the history of man has actually stimulated the economy with government directed economic impulse. America's attempts during and after WWII failed and only extended the depression.    The Chinese, with the biggest stimulus ever in proportion to the economy, did not accomplish even a blip. Despite these realities  this is what they still chose to do for our own economy, and despite it failing and no recovery in sight, they still insist that it only needs "more". It's still possible to turn on the News talk programs and hear them talk about the need for further stimulus, government investment in infrastructure,  and mocking supply-side "trickle down" Reaganomics.

Have these "libs" actually abandoned their ideological bent? Maybe a few, but not really all that many of them.   They just feel that Obama has betrayed them in his corporate associations.    And that is what they're protesting with nominations like Taylor, and his association with Monsanto.

The problem is these rabid ideologues, in disregard to outcome, are not limited to the radical Progressive Marxists, but all also represented by other idealized (Utopian) groups that are somewhat more "moderate" in government involvement, such as  the Libertarians whose intended outcome is virtually identical with the Progressives.

It's very disturbing to hear that our salvation to the current  Progressive destruction is somehow seen to be in the Libertarian Rand Paul, even as recently voiced by Chris Matthews.

I'm reminded of the Robert Frost poem,  Fire and Ice.

  • Some say the world will end in fire,
    Some say in ice.... 

The truth is.... either would suffice.

Here's the problem Trip...as I see it.

As interesting as your posts and threads are, you act as though there is some strict constitutionalist, not only waiting in the wings, but also electable. If that person exists, who is it, and how do they get elected?

It seems as if you feel that, in order to be in the "club", a person has to have gone through some kind of constitutional "enlightenment". Ain't gonna happen.

When I talk to someone that leans toward "lib", about the dangers of GMO, (Roundup ready), crops, and that the government is complicit, I can easily draw them to the conclusion that "big government" is bad. We are agreeing.

Once the connection is made between GMO and big government, anyone that talks about shrinking the size and scope of government, will be listened to...no constitutional enlightenment required. If the candidate expresses a concern about the rapid expansion of glyphosate in our food supply, political affiliation ceases to matter...at least in the minds of millions of single issue voters.

I want them on my side. I want them voting to put a stop to crony capitalism, and the evil influences of big government. I don't care how deeply they understand the constitution.

I see your demand for constitutional understanding, to be akin to requiring that every soldier have a complete understanding of the specific strategy being employed, when we stormed the beaches of Normandy.

Brilliant generals are great, but they are completely useless without the infantry; and the infantry doesn't have to know every detail of every battle. They just have to be on the right side. :wink:

Offline Solar

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2013, 06:27:51 AM »
HOW do you actually dissuade those who are undeniably "rabid ideologues"?

Ideologues do not care about real-world outcome. Instead they embrace ideology with outcome being sacrificed, and often tens of millions of lives along with it. 

We see the same rabid ideology being repeated again and again in Communism into modern times Progressivism, but it didn't start when Marx first put pen to paper either.

The same big-government Utopian planers and Keynesian economists have never ever given into outcome. The fact is that no country ever in the history of man has actually stimulated the economy with government directed economic impulse. America's attempts during and after WWII failed and only extended the depression.    The Chinese, with the biggest stimulus ever in proportion to the economy, did not accomplish even a blip. Despite these realities  this is what they still chose to do for our own economy, and despite it failing and no recovery in sight, they still insist that it only needs "more". It's still possible to turn on the News talk programs and hear them talk about the need for further stimulus, government investment in infrastructure,  and mocking supply-side "trickle down" Reaganomics.

Have these "libs" actually abandoned their ideological bent? Maybe a few, but not really all that many of them.   They just feel that Obama has betrayed them in his corporate associations.    And that is what they're protesting with nominations like Taylor, and his association with Monsanto.

The problem is these rabid ideologues, in disregard to outcome, are not limited to the radical Progressive Marxists, but all also represented by other idealized (Utopian) groups that are somewhat more "moderate" in government involvement, such as  the Libertarians whose intended outcome is virtually identical with the Progressives.

It's very disturbing to hear that our salvation to the current  Progressive destruction is somehow seen to be in the Libertarian Rand Paul, even as recently voiced by Chris Matthews.

I'm reminded of the Robert Frost poem,  Fire and Ice.

  • Some say the world will end in fire,
    Some say in ice.... 

The truth is.... either would suffice.

Our form of government is a fine balance between limited government, and the social responsibility of the citizenry, and not just unfettered individual freedom.
Trip, I know you love to type, but seriously, can you try and make your arguments a bit more concise, honestly, I still don't get your point.

What I did glean however, was you believe these libs are too stupid to see what is going on around them, or simply don't care, which is an extremely ignorant view.
These libs, many of them kids in their early 20 at the time knew nothing of politics, all they knew was Bush was evil because that was the message they saw on TV.
Yet now, 6 years older, they have lost Hope for Change, they believed that killing the energy industry was the right thing to do because we were all going to die from AGW, another lie exposed, IRS, NSA etc, these kids, now looking at their 30s or in their 30s are looking at a future they dreamed possible, gone, early years of production towards their future, gone.
Even the women in this same age group that are looking at their child bearing years and seeing them pissed away because of no real job prospects or a mate with  future earning potential.
These are the people that swallowed the lie, they believed the Marxist when he promised so much, they believed in a dream, and now realize it was nothing but a lie.

These kids will do one of two things, either sit home mid term, or vote for change once again via the Tea movement, but don't shortchange them by lumping them in with the ideologues.
#WWG1WGA

Trip

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2013, 08:10:28 AM »
Trip, I know you love to type, but seriously, can you try and make your arguments a bit more concise, honestly, I still don't get your point.

What I did glean however, was you believe these libs are too stupid to see what is going on around them, or simply don't care, which is an extremely ignorant view.

What you seem to not recognize is most of those liberals are such rabid ideologues that they believe it is their duty to shut down industry, that America is an e-vil empire, and that "we" owe the world.
These libs, many of them kids in their early 20 at the time knew nothing of politics, all they knew was Bush was evil because that was the message they saw on TV.
Yet now, 6 years older, they have lost Hope for Change, they believed that killing the energy industry was the right thing to do because we were all going to die from AGW, another lie exposed, IRS, NSA etc, these kids, now looking at their 30s or in their 30s are looking at a future they dreamed possible, gone, early years of production towards their future, gone.
Even the women in this same age group that are looking at their child bearing years and seeing them pissed away because of no real job prospects or a mate with  future earning potential.
These are the people that swallowed the lie, they believed the Marxist when he promised so much, they believed in a dream, and now realize it was nothing but a lie.

These kids will do one of two things, either sit home mid term, or vote for change once again via the Tea movement, but don't shortchange them by lumping them in with the ideologues.

The reality of ideologues is one doesn't change them because of a lot of wishful thinking and rationalizations on that exist only on their own part.  That's what is extremely ignorant.

If these misnomered "libs" were really open to fact,  then they would have taken note  of the many times the  CAGW was exposed, such as with "Climategate" and the East Anglia emails, and the trumped up hearings that followed those. 

There wouldn't have been an "Occupy" movement.   

If they were not already suffering from serious, habituated  mental blocks, they would not be so rabidly socialist in the face of the European collapse, "austerity", and the ongoing mass violence there. 

The Fact is that an enormous number of them truly believe that we are now on the crest of real change, to bring about a socialist globe, where a one world order is not only a positive thing, but something inevitable; where there are no more wars, and no famine, no starvation, and where we treat Mother Nature with respect, and America is put in its place.  I've actually seen these discussions take place, more than once!   

They actually believe that windmills, Birkenstocks, and globalist dictated direction are the salvation of mankind.

The truth is, it's a seriously naive mistake to imagine that rabid ideologues, no matter their stripe, are going to suddenly apply previously unused  reasoning skills, and simple logic.    If they actually thought for themselves, used applied logic, and took note of the actual outcome resulting from their beliefs,  they wouldn't have been such rabid ideologues to begin with.   

They are not us.

(** And here I thought I was doing well cutting down Fire & Ice to only the first two lines!)


Offline Solar

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2013, 09:38:43 AM »
The reality of ideologues is one doesn't change them because of a lot of wishful thinking and rationalizations on that exist only on their own part.  That's what is extremely ignorant.

If these misnomered "libs" were really open to fact,  then they would have taken note  of the many times the  CAGW was exposed, such as with "Climategate" and the East Anglia emails, and the trumped up hearings that followed those. 

There wouldn't have been an "Occupy" movement.   

If they were not already suffering from serious, habituated  mental blocks, they would not be so rabidly socialist in the face of the European collapse, "austerity", and the ongoing mass violence there. 

The Fact is that an enormous number of them truly believe that we are now on the crest of real change, to bring about a socialist globe, where a one world order is not only a positive thing, but something inevitable; where there are no more wars, and no famine, no starvation, and where we treat Mother Nature with respect, and America is put in its place.  I've actually seen these discussions take place, more than once!   

They actually believe that windmills, Birkenstocks, and globalist dictated direction are the salvation of mankind.

The truth is, it's a seriously naive mistake to imagine that rabid ideologues, no matter their stripe, are going to suddenly apply previously unused  reasoning skills, and simple logic.    If they actually thought for themselves, used applied logic, and took note of the actual outcome resulting from their beliefs,  they wouldn't have been such rabid ideologues to begin with.   

They are not us.

(** And here I thought I was doing well cutting down Fire & Ice to only the first two lines!)
You completely missed my point about many of those that voted for change, weren't voting for Hussein, rather against RINO/Bush, they are not ideologues, they are pissed at politics as usual, it was a protest vote, one that won't be repeated in the Marxists favor.

Not everyone that voted for Hussein were liberal, just angry, and rightly so.
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Offline daidalos

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2013, 11:12:02 AM »
It's worse than unconstitutional. It's pure socialism.

It is specifically designed to collapse our healthcare system, put private insurers out of business, and, (I'm guessing), eventually make all doctors into unionized government employees....with the fines/penalties, combined with the insurance premiums, (paid directly to government), to pay for all of it. There will be no turning back, once it is implemented.

My neighbor used to work in the, (private), student loan industry. I believe the government takeover of that entire industry, was a trial balloon; and it was done with barely a wimper from the public.

It also put thousands out of work, and is a complete bureaucratic nightmare.

Oh it's more nefarious than that.

You name it, everything we as beings do, in this life, is somehow either connected too, or has an affect on your health.

And is now, thanks to this unconstitutional law, and unconstitutional ruling on this law, subject to regulation by the Federal Government.

Thank you Justice turncoat Roberts.
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Offline supsalemgr

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Re: ObamaCare: Why "Tax" vs "Fine/Penalty" is Irrelevant
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 11:13:05 AM »
You completely missed my point about many of those that voted for change, weren't voting for Hussein, rather against RINO/Bush, they are not ideologues, they are pissed at politics as usual, it was a protest vote, one that won't be repeated in the Marxists favor.

Not everyone that voted for Hussein were liberal, just angry, and rightly so.

Not to mention many first time voters who believed his BS. Also, there were many who felt this guy was the real "healer" he portrayed himself as.
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